PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[JoeKitchen]

True that, when your thinking is free of knowledge it can only get you so far. Obviously, if you ignore your ignorance then the sky is the limit. But go ahead and continue to be the epitome of free thinking while trying to prove that your ignorance is as good as some people's uncertainties.



https://newsroom.wakehealth.edu/News-Releases/2020/04/Testing-Shows-Type-of-Cloth-Used-in-Homemade-Masks-Makes-a-Difference?fbclid=IwAR1e4-bvxtzs3TPDVrF39pUpHDLNxPrE0sYwIxr6azEjfFfw4pr7yPRe5Ts
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2?fbclid=IwAR11sGBdxgdgFMZmQeRo8z7AMUpJEorjWXGIJKPjDrN_qppYWXV-t8DtYnU#Tab1
https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-questions-about-covid-19-and-viral-load/?fbclid=IwAR3DP2iAoUXFgehg17Dzxkh0D_gWRmkQRLvIcPfCMAF2KieJClGO43RQ1dc
https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.07353?fbclid=IwAR1WZzjsbY5rBmfJ3IF8kXHuSMusxPMcZvmBo6gt_JUlHFHBsHA-MNmHnbs
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2020/05/15/2020.05.09.20096644.full.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0kqUVCTCQ3Ggu71Xrif_Nx6TjH_OVO1Mu1brrDQVIoPCdayUZe057098k
https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25410/20200421/austria-90-drop-coronavirus-cases-requiring-people-wear-face-masks.htm?fbclid=IwAR3Ysk2tO_Q_drRzg7BFTnbVfIbqgy3OxUoGTXi2EP22WV2nHCtSsQ_otVw
https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2020/04/23/brigham-and-womens-masks-infections?fbclid=IwAR1hQySQUrTNLSSIQklbNtLRPvYhMiSRrwdQvKyhg6KbHS67NwelCVzR3Lg
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v1?fbclid=IwAR0caoT3CGWm2RhqssPTkdzhqf7lJuw3yMl3eMYzXkPINMRIyWBmbK8Vork

And a nice layman review: https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR0886ddKc--ciZjLcIVigWa4QJUnpKxgJ6F_uJQpCTZyZDQ0Z87uK__8rE

Once again, back to your own name calling tricks, Dr. House?  You should thank god you dont have a private proactive; you'd never retain any of your clients.     You are the living example of doctors not being good business people. 

As I pointed out before, the famed WHO says masks are not required.  I am sure they have studies backing this up too. 

However, I still feel that mask wearing is not really helping.  It is only making people feel warm and fuzzy, like in the study Slobo posted before this got political (and we how science has been destroyed by politics too).  It is more the case that most of us are spending our time in very large in door spaces (when outside of our house), like a grocery, diluting the viral concentration.  The limit of the max amount of people in these stores is what is making it less dangerous, not the masks. 

When (smaller) bars reopen, and they should, mask wearing will be not help either.  It will be either limited crowd size or vulnerable people not going to the bar. 

With how many times the experts have flipped flopped on this (or at least how often the media has in reporting these), I've lost trust in many at this point.  As William pointed out, there are not C-19 experts.  Cheers!

[JoeKitchen]

I don't see that at all. There were protests at a few state capitols, but most opened up without protest. From what I see, the protests are larger for the killing of George Floyd than for opening up.

See Slobo's post. 

[JoeKitchen]

I remember a couple of restaurants that opened and were immediately shut down. Certainly nothing widespread.

Until people start to go to other states and counties to have a drink and a meal. 

This is what I did.  This is what people in SC did when salons in GA opened.  Then the Salons in SC got feed up and started opening.

[faberryman]

Until people start to go to other states and counties to have a drink and a meal. 

This is what I did.  This is what people in SC did when salons in GA opened.  Then the Salons in SC got feed up and started opening.

I don't remember reading about that in the national news. Georgia opened up 4/28 and South Carolina opened up 5/4. Maybe hair  and nail salons opened up at different phases in different states. Are people really that desperate that they would drive to the next state over to get their hair and nails done, or even to the next county over to eat and drink? Sounds foolish to me, but intelligence is represented by a bell curve. I read last week that two hair dressers at a Great Clips had COVID-19 and infected 170 staff and customers. That probably wasn't helpful for its business.

[JoeKitchen]

I don't remember reading about that in the national news. Georgia opened up 4/28 and South Carolina opened up 5/4. Maybe hair  and nail salons opened up at different phases in different states. Are people really that desperate that they would drive to the next state over to get their hair and nails done, or even to the next county over to eat and drink? Sounds foolish to me, but intelligence is represented by a bell curve. I read last week that two hair dressers at a Great Clips had COVID-19 and infected 170 staff and customers. That probably wasn't helpful for its business.

It did happen.  People living near the border in SC started going to GA to get their hair cut.  Shortly there after, salon owners in SC complained and were allowed to open.  Even my mother in law, a diehard Dem, is pleading to have the salons reopened in PA. 

We were supposed to go without any haircuts (I still am, but that's me even not during this) while all of our politicians went on TV all freshly cleaned up.  Give me a break; it's hypocrisy at its best. 

In my state, the capital has a stylist on staff that is giving free haircuts to state politicians.  Since she is not charging and technically not employed as a stylist, so they are skirting the edicts over a technicality and getting their hair cut regularly, while everyone else is told to wait until we fully open.  Well, F-U Wolf with a giant middle finger is how many feel!  As I said before, I know of two underground barbers in my neighborhood and I am not even looking for a haircut right now. 

And I see nothing wrong with sitting in a crowded bar with my foot on the brass rail enjoying a libation.  I dont live with older people, I have not had contact with my parents in 3 months, or anyone else in a risky age groups.  So not allowing me, or my wife, in a closed interior whom have almost no chance of dying from this, which we need to first catch as well, while not coming in contact with vulnerable people makes no sense anymore. 

If you are so scared Frank, lock yourself in your house and throw away the key.  If you want to live like a prisoner, have at it.  I am not anymore.  I have not been for a few weeks now.  At this point, I dont care if I do catch it. 

I am living my life. 

[faberryman]

If you are so scared Frank, lock yourself in your house and throw away the key.  If you want to live like a prisoner, have at it.  I am not anymore.  I have not been for a few weeks now.  At this point, I dont care if I do catch it.   

I am not scared;  I am just acting prudently. I certainly don't feel like a prisoner. We will be fully opened up next week, but I don't feel any desperation to go somewhere. What's the rush? You don't get any medals for being first to get your hair cut or being the first patron of a newly reopened restaurant. But if you have some sort of need to have a beer in a bar, by all means go. You know what is best for you.

[JoeKitchen]

I am not scared;  I am just acting prudently. I certainly don't feel like a prisoner. We will be fully opened up next week, but I don't feel any desperation to go somewhere. What's the rush? You don't get any medals for being first to get your hair cut or being the first patron of a newly reopened restaurant. But if you have some sort of need to have a beer in a bar, by all means go. You know what is best for you.

Right, which is what I want us to get back to.  You do you, I do me. 

But for the last two months or so, people have been insisting that "I do me" is not good enough and that I need to sacrifice my freedom to them.  I'm done with it. 

Like I said, you make your choices, and I'll make mine.  I'll leave you alone, if you leave me alone.  Pretty simple stuff. 

[LesPalenik]

Right, which is what I want us to get back to.  You do you, I do me. 

You do you, and I do me works in many situations and that's good.
However, it's much more problematic when the doctors and dentists stop doing them.

[armand]

Once again, back to your own name calling tricks, Dr. House?  You should thank god you dont have a private proactive; you'd never retain any of your clients.     You are the living example of doctors not being good business people. 

As I pointed out before, the famed WHO says masks are not required.  I am sure they have studies backing this up too. 

However, I still feel that mask wearing is not really helping.  It is only making people feel warm and fuzzy, like in the study Slobo posted before this got political (and we how science has been destroyed by politics too).  It is more the case that most of us are spending our time in very large in door spaces (when outside of our house), like a grocery, diluting the viral concentration.  The limit of the max amount of people in these stores is what is making it less dangerous, not the masks. 

When (smaller) bars reopen, and they should, mask wearing will be not help either.  It will be either limited crowd size or vulnerable people not going to the bar. 

With how many times the experts have flipped flopped on this (or at least how often the media has in reporting these), I've lost trust in many at this point.  As William pointed out, there are not C-19 experts.  Cheers!

Hurt much? There was no name calling in my post. You said only free thinkers can realize your point when you don't actually know what you are talking about. I called you out. Simple.

The flip flopping is mostly in your mind but it's true there are unfortunate contradictions, based on multiple things, including availability, local conditions and uncertainty about long term efficiency. All the masks stop some droplets, some more than the others, the uncertainty is how much (in terms of stopping and in terms of usage) is enough to make a difference. Some people want very solid evidence, others are willing to try it before having very extensive numbers in hand without thinking that a facemask would be so much trouble for some.
But the problem is mostly imagined, because this is not a discussion about what works and what doesn't, what can be improved and so forth; it's democrats are bad, republicans and Trump are good, and trying to fit everything into this narrative. Nothing else really.


You keep calling into question my physician abilities, career, etc, hoping that somehow we will be on the same level in the regards to Covid-19, because there are no experts. No, we will never be on the same level in the medical field (including Covid), unless you dedicate yourself to the subject much more than you will ever be. That's not being superior but common sense, however it keeps eluding you. Not to mentions getting personal is actually worse than name calling, but you can't seem to be able to stop when you have no argument. Btw, you keep having this delusional idea that how I deal with people in my life, professional or personal, is how I should treat you. Now that is funny! When you behave like a jerk, that's how you are treated. Change you behavior and I'll change mine. I still think there is a chance you can do that, I didn't add you to my ignore list after all  .

[faberryman]

As I pointed out before, the famed WHO says masks are not required.  I am sure they have studies backing this up too. 

Is this the same WHO that is controlled by the Chinese? Maybe the Chinese don't want us to wear masks, and you are playing right into their hands.

However, I still feel that mask wearing is not really helping.  It is only making people feel warm and fuzzy, like in the study Slobo posted before this got political (and we how science has been destroyed by politics too).  It is more the case that most of us are spending our time in very large in door spaces (when outside of our house), like a grocery, diluting the viral concentration.  The limit of the max amount of people in these stores is what is making it less dangerous, not the masks. 

When (smaller) bars reopen, and they should, mask wearing will be not help either.  It will be either limited crowd size or vulnerable people not going to the bar.

Then don't wear a mask and don't patronize places that require them. I'm not sure why you are still harping on this.

[JoeKitchen]

Hurt much? There was no name calling in my post. You said only free thinkers can realize your point when you don't actually know what you are talking about. I called you out. Simple.

The flip flopping is mostly in your mind but it's true there are unfortunate contradictions, based on multiple things, including availability, local conditions and uncertainty about long term efficiency. All the masks stop some droplets, some more than the others, the uncertainty is how much (in terms of stopping and in terms of usage) is enough to make a difference. Some people want very solid evidence, others are willing to try it before having very extensive numbers in hand without thinking that a facemask would be so much trouble for some.
But the problem is mostly imagined, because this is not a discussion about what works and what doesn't, what can be improved and so forth; it's democrats are bad, republicans and Trump are good, and trying to fit everything into this narrative. Nothing else really.


You keep calling into question my physician abilities, career, etc, hoping that somehow we will be on the same level in the regards to Covid-19, because there are no experts. No, we will never be on the same level in the medical field (including Covid), unless you dedicate yourself to the subject much more than you will ever be. That's not being superior but common sense, however it keeps eluding you. Not to mentions getting personal is actually worse than name calling, but you can't seem to be able to stop when you have no argument. Btw, you keep having this delusional idea that how I deal with people in my life, professional or personal, is how I should treat you. Now that is funny! When you behave like a jerk, that's how you are treated. Change you behavior and I'll change mine. I still think there is a chance you can do that, I didn't add you to my ignore list after all  .

Yawn. 

I know you like to read yourself, but please spare the epistles.

[BernardLanguillier]

Joe,

I don’t know why you need to overstress civil disobedience compared to the degree at which it actually happened (which is very very limited) and claim at the same time that your usual individualist behaviour remains applicable?

It seems like another huge contradiction.

Why not face the reality that a large majority of Americans, especially in the most impacted places where the lockdown was most enforced, understand the need to be very careful about reopening and are acting accordingly? Probably because they understood that the economic impacts were causes by the delayed response to the pandemic. They have learned from the past mistakes and want to avoid this happening again if reopening isn’t done reasonably. Again for the sake of economy.

I can’t know what your motivations are but you wouldn’t behave differently if your objective were once again partisan politics. If feels like you are trying to spread an image of widespread sharing of Trump’s directions against the facts.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Peter McLennan]

I think we need to admit, nobody really knows anything. 

That's just about the only thing remotely agreeable you've said in this thread so far.

Yet, despite this, you keep making wild assertions and generalizations.   Usually about what you call "liberals", unfortunately.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

You do you, and I do me works in many situations and that's good.
However, it's much more problematic when the doctors and dentists stop doing them.

Indeed, unless when the "I do me" starts affecting others, like health care professionals (or me personally)..

[armand]

Yawn. 

I know you like to read yourself, but please spare the epistles.

You post 10 times as me on this topic. What you are doing it's called projection.

[JoeKitchen]

You post 10 times as me on this topic. What you are doing it's called projection.

Fair enough. 

[JoeKitchen]

Joe,

I don’t know why you need to overstress civil disobedience compared to the degree at which it actually happened (which is very very limited) and claim at the same time that your usual individualist behaviour remains applicable?

It seems like another huge contradiction.

Why not face the reality that a large majority of Americans, especially in the most impacted places where the lockdown was most enforced, understand the need to be very careful about reopening and are acting accordingly? Probably because they understood that the economic impacts were causes by the delayed response to the pandemic. They have learned from the past mistakes and want to avoid this happening again if reopening isn’t done reasonably. Again for the sake of economy.

I can’t know what your motivations are but you wouldn’t behave differently if your objective were once again partisan politics. If feels like you are trying to spread an image of widespread sharing of Trump’s directions against the facts.

Cheers,
Bernard

This is just not the case Bernard.  Our most effected demographics were seniors with pre-existing conditions.  Certain geographic areas may have been hit harder then others, but none the less it is seniors we need to worry about. 

With  all of this I have yet to hear any good plans in my state to protect the vulnerable, which we fail dramatically to do. 

Other states did it well without destroying freedoms, and it worked, including on OH, a blue state.  PA, NY, NJ, I am disappointed in them.  What they have done was a total failure for our elders and they are trying to have us ignore it by putting up a smoke screen, IMO. 

Insofar as civil disobedience, it is happening a lot more then what the foreign press (in your country) is reporting.  Much of it is not protests in the street, but people just doing what they do and going out, providing services regardless of what their government says.  When a barber on my block made his store look closed and started having his patrons use secret knocking codes to get in, that does not get that much press.  But I, and others, noticed it, only we are not rats and never turned him in.  Our economy is being much more effect by these lock downs then the virus.  With the virus, we would have learned to self adapt by now and would be operating again.  But now, we are at like 25% compactly. 

FYI, this is America, and we believe in our freedoms.  I was speaking to a family member tonight who is pro lock down and we got to the conversation about SK.  He said he would never want to see what they are doing here because of the effect it would have  on our freedoms.  You may feel different, but then again I find much of the world outside the USA has a tolerance for dictatorship. 

We dont, and I would rather have dangerous freedom then peaceful slavery.

[BobShaw]

FYI, this is America, and we believe in our freedoms.  I was speaking to a family member tonight who is pro lock down and we got to the conversation about SK.  He said he would never want to see what they are doing here because of the effect it would have  on our freedoms.  You may feel different, but then again I find much of the world outside the USA has a tolerance for dictatorship. 

We dont, and I would rather have dangerous freedom then peaceful slavery.

And that folks, is why a thousand people are dying in the US from Covid a day.
Meanwhile the rest of world has pretty well past the peak and are starting to get back on the road to recovery again.

By the way, almost every other country in the world is free. That does not mean that you are free to riot and loot though.
I have been to 40 countries, including the US, where I have been to 14 states.
In most countries kids can go to school safely and you can get pulled over by the police without worrying about being shot.

George Washington, who gave you your FREEDOM and you put on your money and carve into mountains, was a slave owner. Perhaps he had a different interpretation of freedom?
You build giant marble monuments to celebrate past leaders, whereas in most countries they are lucky to get a suburb named after them. They just did their job, some better the others.

[Paulo Bizarro]

It's a simple question that is no longer practical.

This went from 15 days to flatten the curve, to 30 days to stop the spread, and now over two months later people are saying we have to wait until we have a vaccine.  People who put that question above all else would have us stay on lockdown for years if need be. 

Well, we cant live like this any longer.   

Not only is the economic fall out going to be severe, and will get worse the longer we do stay locked down, the more suicides (a doctor in CA said he has seen his year's worth of them in the last 60 days), death due to drug over doses, increase in cancer deaths from people either not receiving treatments or even being diagnosed, etc, all deaths many of those for extending the lock downs are fully ignoring.  And yes, they are being ignored since no lock downers are talking about these. 

All for a virus that largely kills only those with comorbidities.

The real question is, now that opening up is inevitable, is how do we protect the vulnerable now that we must get back to living life?

Some countries have managed "flattening the curve" better than others, by implementing the necessary measures on time. The virus has been travelling the world, and for example now that the USA is going down in numbers of death, Latin America and South America has started to suffer the growing phase of spreading.

Protecting the vulnerable - everybody wears certified masks in public, keep away from others, avoid large groups of people, wash their hands regularly, just practice common sense and safety. Example: I may catch it, be asymptomatic, go visit my older parents or grandparents, and if I am not careful, I may infect them. Regulations need to clear and clearly transmitted to the population.

In Portugal, Lisbon area has seen a surge of cases, coming from poorer neighbourhoods and civil construction workers, plus logisitical distribution centres for large supermarket chains. They are being controlled, but the key message is to break the contamination chains.

[elliot_n]

FYI, this is America, and we believe in our freedoms.  I was speaking to a family member tonight who is pro lock down and we got to the conversation about SK.  He said he would never want to see what they are doing here because of the effect it would have  on our freedoms.  You may feel different, but then again I find much of the world outside the USA has a tolerance for dictatorship. 

We dont, and I would rather have dangerous freedom then peaceful slavery.

American ideology is the perfect breeding ground for this virus — your contempt for mask-wearers, your proud boasts that you are still shaking hands, your glee in seeing your fellow citizens breaking the lockdown. The virus needs you. The virus loves you. MVGA!