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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 511255 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1980 on: April 18, 2020, 03:58:48 pm »

Alan, I did not "mislead" in any way, I omitted the full context and your reaction was what I expected - immediate, instinctual defence. All you needed to say was, "this does not make sense!"

Now, I apologise for "misleading" you, it was not my intention to humiliate you. I have tried to engage with you and Joe constructively and Joe and, wait for it.....Slobodan(!) have been quite positive and reasoned. Joe, I take my hat off to you because you acknowledged that your response was a bit hasty and you had other things on your mind.

I just hope Slobodan picked up the fact that you said you were were "mistaken".... you see Slo, it is quite possible to do and gain, rather than lose someone's respect!

So, once again Alan, I apologise for upsetting you - that was not my intention at the time.... :D
I appreciate your apology.  Thank you.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1981 on: April 18, 2020, 04:30:13 pm »

Complete horseshit.

John,

What I wrote is a combination of facts and my interpretation of them, i.e,, an opinion. For the opinion, I am trying to read between the lines, connect the dots, put the pieces of puzzle together, raise above the trees to see the forest, and see the bigger picture. I might be completely wrong, or you may completely disagree with my interpretation, and that is ok. That's why the exchange of opinions exist, that's why we have this forum.

However, I included a bunch of facts as well, e.g., what police or governors are doing or threaten to do. Are you saying that is completely untrue?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1982 on: April 18, 2020, 04:44:24 pm »

Some of ou guys are engaged in "panic porn," as Bill Maher rightly calls it. You are peddling fear mongering, by tripping over each other who is going to come up with the most ridiculous statistical manipulation to support your doom & gloom narrative. You are, willingly or not, helping the world-wide phenomenon of rising totalitarianism and police state. Police world-wide are beating or arresting curfew breakers, including pensioners. U.K. police are threatening to check your cart in supermarkets to see if all the articles are "essential," and to set up roadblocks to see if your trip is "essential." In Michigan, family members can not visit each other. This is fascism rising. The usual suspect and wanna-be little dictators all over the world, including Democratic governors in the States, are conducting dry runs to see just how much harassment the population can withstand and what is the best way to control masses: ankle bracelets, house arrests, tracing, phone monitoring. Every totalitarians wet dream is coming true in front of us, and some of you are even cheering it.

Is this some of that Panicporn people are talking about?

Time to rise up against the totalitarian tide of public health nurses and their damn thermometers. You won't be measuring my temperature, lady, not while I'm carrying this confederate flag. The south will rise again.

But seriously though, here's a reminder from Katrina days of how not to behave, https://www.propublica.org/article/post-katrina-white-vigilantes-shot-african-americans-with-impunity.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1983 on: April 18, 2020, 04:55:55 pm »

... But seriously though...

Nice attempt at distraction from what I wrote. Or whataboutism.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1984 on: April 18, 2020, 04:59:43 pm »

Speaking about speculations... this one raises interesting questions:

- How come China's major business and political centers (Beijing and Shanghai) are not affected

- Major Western leaders, celebrities, or business people are infected, but none of the Chinese counterparts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0WfPRmm6Rg&feature=youtu.be

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1985 on: April 18, 2020, 05:05:34 pm »

John,

What I wrote is a combination of facts and my interpretation of them, i.e,, an opinion. For the opinion, I am trying to read between the lines, connect the dots, put the pieces of puzzle together, raise above the trees to see the forest, and see the bigger picture. I might be completely wrong, or you may completely disagree with my interpretation, and that is ok. That's why the exchange of opinions exist, that's why we have this forum.

However, I included a bunch of facts as well, e.g., what police or governors are doing or threaten to do. Are you saying that is completely untrue?

Slobodan, what I (and I think some others) can't grasp is that you're a smart guy, and you don't see what's right in front of you -- or maybe you just haven't been to the States the last couple of years, and haven't been completely exposed to Trump.

If you were complaining about the statist impulses of liberals, or more likely "progressives," I really wouldn't argue too much. Bernie Sanders definitely had some totalitarian impulses, even to the extent of refusing to disavow violence by some of his supporters aimed at Clinton supporters in in the 2016 primaries and the convention. And I know as well as you do what happens when you push that kind of  impulse further and further to the left -- you get Commies, and that isn't good. You get the kind of people who find it necessary to get rid of wrong-thinkers so the survivors can live a just life, and you get Cambodia and Pol Pot.

But that's not what we're facing here in the States. We got rid of Bernie. Bernie is deader than Elvis, and even some of his supporters are crawling back toward the middle, now that they think their positions might be at risk. Joe Biden is a mild-mannered, ineffectual, place-holder (we liberals hope) who'll lead to a more centrist politician like Amy Klobuchar in four more years.

What we're facing here in the States right now is a proto-facsist (not a proto-communist) in Donald Trump, a man who stirs up all the worst impulses in the mass of stupid people. I don't have a real tight grip on exactly where you live now -- I think it's somewhere in the Balkans -- but you must have some knowledge of what happens when you begin demonizing minorities (Hispanics -- Trump said an American-born Hispanic judge was not qualified because of his race, Asians -- he peed all over an Asian who died an American war hero because of his race. And blacks -- He's the guy who took our full-page newspaper ads demanding that a group of black teens be given the death penalty for attacks in NYC's Central Park; they weren't given the death penalty, though they were sent to prison, only to be cleared later because the prosecution was so bigoted; and Trump's the guy that said "There were good people on both sides" in referring to a neo-Nazi and KKK crowd of white supremecists at Charlottesville, Va. He holds exactly the same kind of rabble-rousing rallies that Mussolini did, he encourages, just yesterday, violent demonstrations against governors he doesn't like, he has suggested a number of times that he has essentially dictatorial powers. Here's a news report from this week, from an admittedly liberal source, (CNN) but it's based on Trump's own words:

Trump continually flouts the fundamentals of the American framework: the balance between the states and US government, and separation of three federal branches, executive, legislative and judicial. This week, he said he had "total" authority over states to determine when businesses, schools and other entities reopen across the country and, separately, threatened to invoke never-before-used or tested authority to shut down Congress so he could push through his appointees without a Senate vote.
In the past, Trump has claimed -- against constitutional principles -- that he could lift the right of citizenship for children born in the US of undocumented immigrants and suggested people crossing the border could be summarily deported without the hearings to determine if they deserved asylum or were wrongly apprehended.
He has scoffed at due process guarantees and equal protection of the law. Based on his personal predilections, he has declared people innocent or guilty and scorned US judges for rulings against his interests. He also has suggested he ultimately will prevail when his own appointees to the bench hear his cases.
Earlier this year, after he was acquitted by the Senate of impeachment charges related to his Ukrainian activities, Trump swiftly removed from office people who had testified at the House of Representatives' impeachment inquiry. He also declared control of the Department of Justice: "I am actually, I guess, the chief law enforcement officer." That assertion of absolute, even autocratic, power reverberated in his claim this week: "When somebody's the President of the United States, the authority is total, and that's the way it's got to be."

So that's what we're dealing with, a guy who not only believes he has total authority in the US, but also has managed to compliment, at one time or another, virtually every totalitarian leader in the world, including Putin, Xi, Kim, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Salman and others.

He's not a conservative; he's a proto-fascist, and given a chance, he'd be a real one. That's why, given your obvious intelligence and history, we can't understand your reflexive, unquestioning support of the guy.

 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 06:50:44 pm by John Camp »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1986 on: April 18, 2020, 05:15:54 pm »

Complete horseshit.

No John, that is how freedoms are lost. 

You really think we are going to get every freedom back after this is over?  If so, you're naive. 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1987 on: April 18, 2020, 05:28:37 pm »

Slobodan, what I (and I think some others) can't grasp is that you're a smart guy, and you don't see what's right in front of you -- or maybe you just haven't been to the States the last couple of years, and haven't been completely exposed to Trump...

John,

I appreciate the detailed response.

I've been in the States since 2004 and left at the very end of 2019, so I am fully exposed to Trump. I am also a U.S. citizen, i.e., will vote in November from abroad.

Now, my post to which you responded didn't mention Trump at all, and you turned your response all about him. Is that what they call whataboutism? I was talking about a world-wide phenomenon, from my current Balkan region (Serbia) to the U.K., India, etc.

Everything you said about Trump I either dispute on an intellectual level, or I fully agree with his policies and positions. Every one of your accusations against Trump has been debated in great detail in our forums, and obviously, I, and several others, see it completely differently.

And that is the crux of the matter: we see things differently. We are not a part of the "mass of stupid people." Most of us are highly educated (e.g., I have an advanced degree from an American university, for instance). We just see things differently and are quite capable to defend our views logically, factually, intellectually.

It is a pity that smart, educated people with different worldviews are so easily dismissed as stupid.

elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1988 on: April 18, 2020, 06:00:32 pm »

Speaking about speculations... this one raises interesting questions:

- How come China's major business and political centers (Beijing and Shanghai) are not affected

- Major Western leaders, celebrities, or business people are infected, but none of the Chinese counterparts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0WfPRmm6Rg&feature=youtu.be



Nothing in that video is true.

It’s far-right conspiracy-theory nonsense. (Alan has been parroting the same on this thread — e.g the Chinese must have their own secret Coronavirus vaccine.)

For the record: Coronavirus spread to both Beijing and Shanghai; the Chinese stockmarket dropped 15%; the Chinese economy has tanked, badly.

China imposed strict social-distancing measures nationwide and that is why they escaped the pandemic relatively lightly.

To describe the West’s public health response as ‘fascism rising’ whilst at the same time posting videos from the lunatic right-wing fringe is just plain weird.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1989 on: April 18, 2020, 06:38:22 pm »

And our next tyrant is: 

Di Blasio Urges New Yorkers to Rat Out Violators With Pics

I would love to know how you identify them with masks on.  I am sure John will find a reason to defend the motion. 

“Now it is easier than ever,” he said in a video posted to his official Twitter account. “When you see a crowd, when you see a line that’s not distanced, when you see a supermarket that’s too crowded -- anything -- you can report it right away ...”.

Wow, just wow!

But hey, it’s not fascism.  ::)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 06:45:24 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1990 on: April 18, 2020, 07:22:46 pm »

And our next tyrant is: 

Di Blasio Urges New Yorkers to Rat Out Violators With Pics

I would love to know how you identify them with masks on.  I am sure John will find a reason to defend the motion. 

“Now it is easier than ever,” he said in a video posted to his official Twitter account. “When you see a crowd, when you see a line that’s not distanced, when you see a supermarket that’s too crowded -- anything -- you can report it right away ...”.

Wow, just wow!

But hey, it’s not fascism.  ::)

"When you see something, say something." 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1991 on: April 18, 2020, 07:24:27 pm »

Slobodan, what I (and I think some others) can't grasp is that you're a smart guy, and you don't see what's right in front of you -- or maybe you just haven't been to the States the last couple of years, and haven't been completely exposed to Trump.

If you were complaining about the statist impulses of liberals, or more likely "progressives," I really wouldn't argue too much. Bernie Sanders definitely had some totalitarian impulses, even to the extent of refusing to disavow violence by some of his supporters aimed at Clinton supporters in in the 2016 primaries and the convention. And I know as well as you do what happens when you push that kind of  impulse further and further to the left -- you get Commies, and that isn't good. You get the kind of people who find it necessary to get rid of wrong-thinkers so the survivors can live a just life, and you get Cambodia and Pol Pot.

But that's not what we're facing here in the States. We got rid of Bernie. Bernie is deader than Elvis, and even some of his supporters are crawling back toward the middle, now that they think their positions might be at risk. Joe Biden is a mild-mannered, ineffectual, place-holder (we liberals hope) who'll lead to a more centrist politician like Amy Klobuchar in four more years.

What we're facing here in the States right now is a proto-facsist (not a proto-communist) in Donald Trump, a man who stirs up all the worst impulses in the mass of stupid people. I don't have a real tight grip on exactly where you live now -- I think it's somewhere in the Balkans -- but you must have some knowledge of what happens when you begin demonizing minorities (Hispanics -- Trump said an American-born Hispanic judge was not qualified because of his race, Asians -- he peed all over an Asian who died an American war hero because of his race. And blacks -- He's the guy who took our full-page newspaper ads demanding that a group of black teens be given the death penalty for attacks in NYC's Central Park; they weren't given the death penalty, though they were sent to prison, only to be cleared later because the prosecution was so bigoted; and Trump's the guy that said "There were good people on both sides" in referring to a neo-Nazi and KKK crowd of white supremecists at Charlottesville, Va. He holds exactly the same kind of rabble-rousing rallies that Mussolini did, he encourages, just yesterday, violent demonstrations against governors he doesn't like, he has suggested a number of times that he has essentially dictatorial powers. Here's a news report from this week, from an admittedly liberal source, (CNN) but it's based on Trump's own words:

Trump continually flouts the fundamentals of the American framework: the balance between the states and US government, and separation of three federal branches, executive, legislative and judicial. This week, he said he had "total" authority over states to determine when businesses, schools and other entities reopen across the country and, separately, threatened to invoke never-before-used or tested authority to shut down Congress so he could push through his appointees without a Senate vote.
In the past, Trump has claimed -- against constitutional principles -- that he could lift the right of citizenship for children born in the US of undocumented immigrants and suggested people crossing the border could be summarily deported without the hearings to determine if they deserved asylum or were wrongly apprehended.
He has scoffed at due process guarantees and equal protection of the law. Based on his personal predilections, he has declared people innocent or guilty and scorned US judges for rulings against his interests. He also has suggested he ultimately will prevail when his own appointees to the bench hear his cases.
Earlier this year, after he was acquitted by the Senate of impeachment charges related to his Ukrainian activities, Trump swiftly removed from office people who had testified at the House of Representatives' impeachment inquiry. He also declared control of the Department of Justice: "I am actually, I guess, the chief law enforcement officer." That assertion of absolute, even autocratic, power reverberated in his claim this week: "When somebody's the President of the United States, the authority is total, and that's the way it's got to be."

So that's what we're dealing with, a guy who not only believes he has total authority in the US, but also has managed to compliment, at one time or another, virtually every totalitarian leader in the world, including Putin, Xi, Kim, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Salman and others.

He's not a conservative; he's a proto-fascist, and given a chance, he'd be a real one. That's why, given your obvious intelligence and history, we can't understand your reflexive, unquestioning support of the guy.

 
Hillary summed us up in two words, "They're deplorables."

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1992 on: April 18, 2020, 07:36:55 pm »

John, ...It is a pity that smart, educated people with different worldviews are so easily dismissed as stupid.

So, rather than dispute John's detailed and considered argument, you simply state that you can refute each of his points.  Not good enough.

Let's see you spend as much time (and skill) as John and defend your position.

And while you're at it, let's see you dispute the facts that he's a self-admitted sexual predator, appoints close family members to positions for which they are demonstrably unqualified, is a multiple, serial failure in business, cheats his associates in matters both fiscal (bankruptcy) and sporting (golf) and a liar so unskilled at the task that his lies are obviously and endlessly proven false.  That his cabinet and surrounding "advisors" have experienced dismissal or been forced to quit their positions accused of corruption or incompetence at a rate wholly unprecedented in American history. That he is the only President with zero experience of governance or military and who avoided military service under questionable conditions yet derides those who did serve. Or that, as an orator (a prerequisite for a leader) he is an abject failure, that he can't even spell, let alone write, that he has increased the political divisions in America beyond all reckoning, or that in nearly all of the western democracy's press he is commonly viewed with dismay and derision.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 07:40:02 pm by Peter McLennan »
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chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1993 on: April 18, 2020, 07:40:38 pm »

So, rather than dispute John's detailed and considered argument, you simply state that you can refute each of his points.  Not good enough.

Let's see you spend as much time (and skill) as John and defend your position.

And while you're at it, let's see you dispute the facts that he's a self-admitted sexual predator, appoints close family members to positions for which they are demonstrably unqualified, is a multiple, serial failure in business, cheats his associates in matters both fiscal (bankruptcy) and sporting (golf) and a liar so unskilled at the task that his lies are obviously and endlessly proven false.  That his cabinet and surrounding "advisors" have experienced dismissal or been forced to quit their positions accused of corruption or incompetence at a rate wholly unprecedented in American history. That he is the only President with zero experience of governance or military and who avoided military service under questionable conditions yet derides those who did serve. Or that, as an orator (a prerequisite for a leader) he is an abject failure, that he can't even spell, let alone write, that he has increased the political divisions in America beyond all reckoning, or that in nearly all of the western democracy's press he is commonly viewed with dismay and derision.

And all this before lunch.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1994 on: April 18, 2020, 07:41:08 pm »

:)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1995 on: April 18, 2020, 08:00:44 pm »

So, rather than dispute John's detailed and considered argument, you simply state that you can refute each of his points.  Not good enough.

Let's see you spend as much time (and skill) as John and defend your position....

There are several reasons I won't engage in a lengthy response:

1. It is 2am in my location
2. As I said, everything John stated are tired tropes about Trump that have been rehashed in these forums ad nauseum
3. As I said, my post never mentioned Trump, so trying to avoid the debate about what I said and once again make it about Trump - no thanks

armand

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1996 on: April 18, 2020, 08:55:09 pm »

We think out of the boix and question things.  We're smarter than most.

You and Trump, smartest people in the room.

If only you'd realize that you totally missed the point with that chart that was quite basic and self explanatory. There was no context needed to see what's about, William was nice; it was a weekly deaths/1 mil cases. Very simple. I posted again for all to look at, all the required info is in it. Period. That maybe it's irrelevant yet to what you think should matter, such as total cases/year, it's possibly a different discussion.
But to make a point of pride about your inability I find it amazing, I guess that's how Trump thinks too when he pats himself on the back.

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1997 on: April 18, 2020, 09:00:51 pm »

You and Trump, smartest people in the room.

If only you'd realize that you totally missed the point with that chart that was quite basic and self explanatory. There was no context needed to see what's about, William was nice; it was a weekly deaths/1 mil cases. Very simple. I posted again for all to look at, all the required info is in it. Period. That maybe it's irrelevant yet to what you think should matter, such as total cases/year, it's possibly a different discussion.
But to make a point of pride about your inability I find it amazing, I guess that's how Trump thinks too when he pats himself on the back.

If we actually knew what we thought we did about this virus, FL would be over run.  We need to start rethinking how we are handingly this . 
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chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1998 on: April 18, 2020, 09:21:26 pm »

If we actually knew what we thought we did about this virus, FL would be over run.  We need to start rethinking how we are handingly this .

I think the majority of the Covidiots on the Florida beaches were not floridians...but from all parts of the USA and Canada.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1999 on: April 18, 2020, 09:35:20 pm »

You and Trump, smartest people in the room.

If only you'd realize that you totally missed the point with that chart that was quite basic and self explanatory. There was no context needed to see what's about, William was nice; it was a weekly deaths/1 mil cases. Very simple. I posted again for all to look at, all the required info is in it. Period. That maybe it's irrelevant yet to what you think should matter, such as total cases/year, it's possibly a different discussion.
But to make a point of pride about your inability I find it amazing, I guess that's how Trump thinks too when he pats himself on the back.
Thank you for your concern but Bill and I have settled this issue. Time to move on.
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