PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Robert Roaldi]

Interesting article from Forbes about what many of the countries that are having the most success against Covid-19 have in common, https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivahwittenbergcox/2020/04/13/what-do-countries-with-the-best-coronavirus-reponses-have-in-common-women-leaders/.

First few sentences: Looking for examples of true leadership in a crisis? From Iceland to Taiwan and from Germany to New Zealand, women are stepping up to show the world how to manage a messy patch for our human family. Add in Finland, Iceland and Denmark, and this pandemic is revealing that women have what it takes when the heat rises in our Houses of State.

[John Camp]

Maybe your lower numbers have to due with temperature, weather, population density.  Also, NYC area got 60% of total US infections which could be accounted for as it has 60 million visitors annually in a very dense population.  NYC has about 180% in visitors what Canada has in total population.

All of that doesn't diminish the fact that your PM acted later than Trump and less forcefully.

If only Trump had closed the visitors from Europe sooner than he did. We'd have probably saved thousands of lives.

[JoeKitchen]

A number of historical reports have shown this.

There were doctors on the news talking about how it was not a great comparison since they did not have the medical treatments we now do.  It could very well be the case that even with our social distancing but take away our modern equipment, the death rate good be just as high. 

[JoeKitchen]

Everyone in the media and elsewhere question this all the time. That's why it keeps getting asked. People want to know if the mortality rate 1% or not, or 0.3% or not. I don't know why you keep harping on the fact that we don't the final exact number. Everybody knows that we don't know the final exact number. You are not revealing a hidden truth to anyone.

But I don't get your continued position that it's not that serious. The USA has had 30,000 deaths in about 6 weeks now and that's WITH many areas requiring physical distancing. We may not know the EXACT mortality rate yet, but I don't know how you can arrive at the idea that it's not much more serious than a regular flu. That seems like such a bizarre statement. That's not anything like normal.

When did I say it was not serious? 

My contention is it is not serious enough to full force destroy the economy, not by a stretch.  Quarantine the old and the sick, but let everyone else back to work. 

The fact is this lock down ain't lasting too much longer, and if everyone needs to catch it anyway, what was the point especially considering NYC did not have issues with over capacity or lack of care.  Other countries had this issue, but no other countries have the robust healthcare system we do.  It's time to realize this and get back to work.  Conditions have change and/or are not nearly as bad as were predicted even when taking into account the social distancing. 

BTW, no one is answering that question either, whether or not they feel we all need to catch it anyway. 

[chez]

OK So explain why you have lower numbers.  You were the one I believe arguing that because TRump started later, we have more cases.  But he started earlier.  So how come you have less cases?  Saying you're smarter doesn't get it.  Why?

It's all in the beer Alan...that and we got the vaccine from the Chinese in trade for releasing Meng Wanzhou.

I've watched both leader address their people. Trudeau comes out of his home everyday at the same time, speaks with authority yet sympathetic to people's concerns, and does not try to put on a show or overstep his knowledge. If he doesn't know something, he says so and leaves the question to be answered by the experts. He is in step with the provinces...one of the premiers who could not get along with Trudeau called it his finest hour. The premiers all say the same message as Trudeau and right down to the chief medical officers of each province...same story. The people of Canada for the most part have followed their leaders lead, the message is always consistent and the same no matter what level of government is talking ( even Trudeau's opposition ). Basically all politicking has been shelved to deal with the crisis. So the social isolation and distancing measures put in place are for the most part being followed...not being rebelled against because of the strong leadership and messages.

Now contrast that with Trump where chaos rules...just like he likes it. Different message to the people every day. Looking to blame anyone he can. No leadership at all. And you need to ask why there are differences...it's all in the leadership starting at the top. Nothing to do with people's freedom being taken away...we have that same freedom here in Canada...but the message has been given to us and we understand what's at stake. The message to the American people changes every damn day...with your leader losing it on national TV yesterday. I too would say Fuck it...lets just go out and play.

[John Camp]

Alan, I don't understand your problem with Canada.

They're actually pretty nice folks, except for the fish and game wardens, who are assholes. And they do have the crappiest WalMart in creation, to say nothing of the dirtiest McDoanld's, which is inside that WalMart, at Dryden. But other than that, they're great folks. They also are the home of the famous lumberjack song, whose partial lyrics you'll find below:

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars

MOUNTIES CHOIR
He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps
He likes to press wild flowers
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars...?

He's a lumberjack and he's OK
He sleeps all night and works all day

I cut down trees, I wear high heels
Suspenders and a bra
I wish I were a girlie
Just like my dear papa
 

[JoeKitchen]

Alan, I don't understand your problem with Canada.

They're actually pretty nice folks, except for the fish and game wardens, who are assholes. And they do have the crappiest WalMart in creation, to say nothing of the dirtiest McDoanld's, which is inside that WalMart, at Dryden. But other than that, they're great folks. They also are the home of the famous lumberjack song, whose partial lyrics you'll find below:

I cut down trees, I skip and jump
I like to press wild flowers
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars

MOUNTIES CHOIR
He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps
He likes to press wild flowers
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars...?

He's a lumberjack and he's OK
He sleeps all night and works all day

I cut down trees, I wear high heels
Suspenders and a bra
I wish I were a girlie
Just like my dear papa
 

I've heard this so many times.   

[chez]

Interesting article from Forbes about what many of the countries that are having the most success against Covid-19 have in common, https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivahwittenbergcox/2020/04/13/what-do-countries-with-the-best-coronavirus-reponses-have-in-common-women-leaders/.

First few sentences: Looking for examples of true leadership in a crisis? From Iceland to Taiwan and from Germany to New Zealand, women are stepping up to show the world how to manage a messy patch for our human family. Add in Finland, Iceland and Denmark, and this pandemic is revealing that women have what it takes when the heat rises in our Houses of State.

Here in British Columbia the chief medical officer ( Bonny Henry ) has taken the major leadership role in handling the virus and has the people in total sync. A very calm voice during this chaotic time that knows her stuff. She's become somewhat of a celebrity with songs being created about her. Kind of neat to watch someone with true leadership abilities with such a calm demeanor.

[Peter McLennan]

The fact remains your guy Trudeau started later than our guy Trump.  Everything else is conversation.

Oh, wait.  And he dressed up in blackface, too.

[Alan Klein]

When did I say it was not serious? 

My contention is it is not serious enough to full force destroy the economy, not by a stretch.  Quarantine the old and the sick, but let everyone else back to work. 

The fact is this lock down ain't lasting too much longer, and if everyone needs to catch it anyway, what was the point especially considering NYC did not have issues with over capacity or lack of care.  Other countries had this issue, but no other countries have the robust healthcare system we do.  It's time to realize this and get back to work.  Conditions have change and/or are not nearly as bad as were predicted even when taking into account the social distancing. 

BTW, no one is answering that question either, whether or not they feel we all need to catch it anyway. 

At 75, that's my biggest concern.  What I'm doing is staying hidden and hoping that the thing dies out soon never to return.  The alternative, is to stay hidden until they come up with a vaccine and/or a antiviral shot to cure or reduce the effect when I get it.  Other than that, I really rolling the dice.   

[BernardLanguillier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ_Gw9etRfk

Total clarity.
- Trump didn't do anything early in the crisis. He didn't use any authority towards the States to push them to take measures against the pandemic (I agree that he didn't use any explicit authority to delay their actions, only his downplay influenced some of them, typically the republican states). The governors did the job and the lives that were saved were saved by the States
- Now he becomes the king and wants to force the governors to control their actions to reopen the economy.

Cheers,
Bernard

[JoeKitchen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ_Gw9etRfk

Total clarity.

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course, he's doing damage control. 

De Blasio was practically bagging him to lock down NYC and it took him three days to get the message. 

[Alan Klein]

It's all in the beer Alan...that and we got the vaccine from the Chinese in trade for releasing Meng Wanzhou.

I've watched both leader address their people. Trudeau comes out of his home everyday at the same time, speaks with authority yet sympathetic to people's concerns, and does not try to put on a show or overstep his knowledge. If he doesn't know something, he says so and leaves the question to be answered by the experts. He is in step with the provinces...one of the premiers who could not get along with Trudeau called it his finest hour. The premiers all say the same message as Trudeau and right down to the chief medical officers of each province...same story. The people of Canada for the most part have followed their leaders lead, the message is always consistent and the same no matter what level of government is talking ( even Trudeau's opposition ). Basically all politicking has been shelved to deal with the crisis. So the social isolation and distancing measures put in place are for the most part being followed...not being rebelled against because of the strong leadership and messages.

Now contrast that with Trump where chaos rules...just like he likes it. Different message to the people every day. Looking to blame anyone he can. No leadership at all. And you need to ask why there are differences...it's all in the leadership starting at the top. Nothing to do with people's freedom being taken away...we have that same freedom here in Canada...but the message has been given to us and we understand what's at stake. The message to the American people changes every damn day...with your leader losing it on national TV yesterday. I too would say Fuck it...lets just go out and play.

You describe the style of Trudeau but didn't give too many facts of difference.  Americans are following isolation, certainly here in NJ which is second hardest hit state. I know because I live here and see what people are doing.  It's locked down,  Businesses are all shut except for groceries supermarkets and a few others.   But I think the numbers were baked in the cake early when NYC was exposed to many visitors and local people returning from infected areas.  By the time everyone figured out how bad it was, it was spreading.  NYC is very congested,  It brings in a lot of people who commute to work from New Jersey right across the Hudson River.  These two states out of fifty have 45% of the cases and 52% of the deaths in America.  Kind of like what happened to Wuhan in China.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/apr/13/coronavirus-map-us-latest-covid-19-cases-state-by-state

[JoeKitchen]

Hey Bernard, I guess you missed this one, from the home town paper too. 

How Delays and Unheeded Warnings Hindered NY's Virus Fight

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”  Hubris always comes before the fall. 

It becomes a hit piece on Trump for a bit, because you cant write something in the Times with hitting Trump, but then ... even so, the initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

Dr. Frieden said that if the state and city had adopted widespread social-distancing measures a week or two earlier, including closing schools, stores and restaurants, then the estimated death toll from the outbreak might have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent.  But New York mandated those measures after localities in states including California and Washington had done so.  Ouch!  BTW, Dr. Frieden is talking about Cuomo here. 

“New York City as a whole was late in social measures,” said Isaac B. Weisfuse, a former New York City deputy health commissioner. “Any after-action review of the pandemic in New York City will focus on that issue. It has become the major issue in the transmission of the virus.”

50% lower fatalities, at least, if only Cuomo had acted sooner.  What an utter failure. 

[Alan Klein]

Trump blames the governors, WHO and China.  Governor Cuomo blames Trump and Mayor Di Blasio, and De Blasio Blames Cuomo and Trump.  I've lived in New York and NJ all my life.  Nothing changes.  It's like a circular firing squad.

Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.

[armand]

Hey Bernard, I guess you missed this one, from the home town paper too. 

How Delays and Unheeded Warnings Hindered NY's Virus Fight

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”  Hubris always comes before the fall. 

It become a hit piece on Trump for a bit, but then ... even so, the initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

Dr. Frieden said that if the state and city had adopted widespread social-distancing measures a week or two earlier, including closing schools, stores and restaurants, then the estimated death toll from the outbreak might have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent.  But New York mandated those measures after localities in states including California and Washington had done so.  Ouch!  BTW, Dr. Frieden is talking about Cuomo here. 

“New York City as a whole was late in social measures,” said Isaac B. Weisfuse, a former New York City deputy health commissioner. “Any after-action review of the pandemic in New York City will focus on that issue. It has become the major issue in the transmission of the virus.”

50% lower fatalities, at least, if only Cuomo had acted sooner.  What an utter failure.

And all this after you guys were all over that piece from medium.com that the lockdown doesn't lead to less deaths. Oh, well, if it fits it ships.

[BernardLanguillier]

Hey Bernard, I guess you missed this one, from the home town paper too. 

How Delays and Unheeded Warnings Hindered NY's Virus Fight

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”  Hubris always comes before the fall. 

It become a hit piece on Trump for a bit, but then ... even so, the initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

Dr. Frieden said that if the state and city had adopted widespread social-distancing measures a week or two earlier, including closing schools, stores and restaurants, then the estimated death toll from the outbreak might have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent.  But New York mandated those measures after localities in states including California and Washington had done so.  Ouch!  BTW, Dr. Frieden is talking about Cuomo here. 

“New York City as a whole was late in social measures,” said Isaac B. Weisfuse, a former New York City deputy health commissioner. “Any after-action review of the pandemic in New York City will focus on that issue. It has become the major issue in the transmission of the virus.”

50% lower fatalities, at least, if only Cuomo had acted sooner.  What an utter failure.

Oh certainly. I am in no way giving a pass to Cuomo.

But I don't see who the failure of the governors to act as quickly as they could have contradicts in any way what I wrote above. They were still far faster than Trump would have liked.

You are too stuck in your partisan views of the world to look objectively at the actions of Trump.

And the worse is happening now.

Do you at least agree that Trump's attitude in pushing to States to reopen according to his federal agenda is totally insane?

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Trump blames the governors, WHO and China.  Governor Cuomo blames Trump and Mayor Di Blasio, and De Blasio Blames Cuomo and Trump.  I've lived in New York and NJ all my life.  Nothing changes.  It's like a circular firing squad.

Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.

Yes but A blaming B and B blaming A doesn't mean that A and B are equally right or wrong.

There is an objective reality transcending politics and the way you look at it.

It exists in itself and that objective reality paints a picture where Trump is a disaster beyond words.

Cheers,
Bernard

[chez]

Trump blames the governors, WHO and China.  Governor Cuomo blames Trump and Mayor Di Blasio, and De Blasio Blames Cuomo and Trump.  I've lived in New York and NJ all my life.  Nothing changes.  It's like a circular firing squad.

Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.

Lack of leadership at all levels. Maybe they learn from the commander.

[Alan Klein]

And all this after you guys were all over that piece from medium.com that the lockdown doesn't lead to less deaths. Oh, well, if it fits it ships.

I never said a lockdown doesn't work.  What I said was that a lockdown earlier on didn't seem to fit the facts at the time.  You don't go to war because the other guy is sailing some ships nearby.