Pages: 1 ... 61 62 [63] 64 65 ... 400   Go Down

Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 501926 times)

Craig Lamson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3264
    • Craig Lamson Photo Homepage
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1240 on: April 15, 2020, 08:24:41 pm »

Bernard, You're arguing against a species of religious belief. It's like arguing against the divinity of Jesus, there are no logical points or arguments that you can make that will dissuade the faithful, so there's no point in trying. Unless you're just trolling them, of course, in which case I'd heartily approve.

And yet of course Bernard has zero logical arguments to in which to present,  his have been shown to be void, and wholly disingenuous.

We can add you to that list if you choose.
Logged
Craig Lamson Photo

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5080
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1241 on: April 15, 2020, 08:26:32 pm »

Fake news...you believe Fox but not the NY Times or Washington Post. Who are these sources and why are they hiding. Aren't these the exact things that are used by you and others to discredit other reports?

Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot...it seems to feel fine.

Yes, true.
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1242 on: April 15, 2020, 08:28:11 pm »

The only thing we'll agree is that the current situation is bad. Do you actually think you thought about those consequences but people who deal with these regularly didn't? I'm sure they take into much more than you think.

One last time, it's not as the flu. It's significantly worse, those who get in the hospital are worse and it's significantly more contagious. I'm talking about the cases that were know about, how many total asymptomatic cases matters just to calculate a total mortality but not how you address what you have in front of you.

The estimates are going down because measures are working.

And the last thing, you need to change your sources. How can you say the the places that got hit didn't go above capacity? You have no clue. Their ICU beds went up a ton, they are begging to get more staff. We are not talking about total number of beds.
I won't say the virus isn't a terrible thing and certainly people like yourself who work in hospitals are taking chances.  I deeply respect and appreciate what you do.  But I'm wondering whether it's more contagious? Until we test the general public, we won't know how many have been carriers with no or few symptoms (asymptomatic).  I also question why there's little comparison in the news to seasonal flu.  I believe part of that is that media sells better on bad news.  It seems every upcoming storm is going to be the worst of the last century. 

I checked the current figures for seasonal flu for the 2018-2019 season which runs 6 months from Oct- March approximately.  Note that the numbers are larger than Covid-19, although the deaths will probably exceed flu by the time it's over.  Additionally, the flu has a vaccine that was around 45% effective this season.  In the 2018-2019 season in prevented 4 millions cases, 58,000 hospitalizations and 3500 deaths. (20% of the cases and 10% of the deaths which says something about whether to take the vaccine, but that's another story.)  Additionally, over 99% of flu cases are susceptible to four different antiviral drugs. So the cases and deaths would have been a higher except for drugs and vaccines.  I don't know how many lives the 4 anti-viral drugs save.  But I'm sure the information is in the links somewhere; you can check. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

None of this is to diminish the threat of Covid-19.  But it's important to put it in the context of other viruses that hit us every year.  Shutting down the economy causes deaths and medical challenges such as starvation, suicide, mental issues, homelessness, marital breakups, educational deficiencies, loss of savings and jobs, drug and alcohol addiction, reduction of care for other diseases that aren't being addressed and deaths caused from that, etc. We have to be cautious that we don't over react.  Otherwise the cure might be worse than the disease.

"CDC estimates that the burden of illness during the 2018–2019 season included an estimated 35.5 million people getting sick with influenza, 16.5 million people going to a health care provider for their illness, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths from influenza"
(By comparison, there are currently 633,267 cases and 28,278 deaths from Covid 19).

"Antiviral medications are an important adjunct to flu vaccine in the control of influenza. Almost all (>99%) of the influenza viruses tested this season are susceptible to the four FDA-approved influenza antiviral medications recommended for use in the U.S. this season.

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1243 on: April 15, 2020, 08:32:19 pm »

And it's getting more interesting. 

Sources believe coronavirus originated in Wuhan lab as part of China's efforts to compete with US

COVID-19 originated in a Wuhan laboratory not as a bioweapon, but as part of China's effort to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China's government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.

This may be the "costliest government coverup of all time," one of the sources said.

The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that "patient zero" worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.

Additionally, the sources tell Fox News the World Health Organization (WHO) was complicit from the beginning in helping China cover its tracks.


Unnamed sources? Isn't this the kind of reporting you ignore? Oh wait, it's Fox News. It must be true.
Logged

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5080
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1244 on: April 15, 2020, 08:34:46 pm »

Unnamed sources? Isn't this the kind of reporting you ignore? Oh wait, it's Fox News. It must be true.

Sorry to disappoint, but Chez beat you to it. 
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1245 on: April 15, 2020, 08:40:55 pm »

He makes a really great point Bernard. 

Since the comment the media have been harping on the fact that it is the governors that run the show and hold a good deal of blame.  Yesterday I believe Cuomo was on the news and got blindsided with some pretty brutal questions about how he delayed actions, especially considering De Blasio was calling for things a few days before he was. 

It knocked him off of his chain of thought for sure. 
Sorry I missed that.  Of course the governors are responsible.  After all, NYS was the hardest hit.  Why didn't the governor shut down the state earlier He has way more authority over state operations than the federal government.  The Feds can't do squat. Also, why didn't NYS have enough PPE equipment?  The spend $70 billion annually on Medicare, $175 billion overall.  NYC spends another $90 billion.  They both were asleep at the switch.  It's like Canadians here who are busy blaming Trump, while their own PM and their own country were even more derelict. It's easier to point fingers.

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1246 on: April 15, 2020, 08:44:26 pm »

Bernard, You're arguing against a species of religious belief. It's like arguing against the divinity of Jesus, there are no logical points or arguments that you can make that will dissuade the faithful, so there's no point in trying. Unless you're just trolling them, of course, in which case I'd heartily approve.

Someone has to react.

Otherwise they may think that their craziness makes sense.

They run in closed circles, convincing each others that they are making sense.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1247 on: April 15, 2020, 08:45:35 pm »

And yet of course Bernard has zero logical arguments to in which to present,  his have been shown to be void, and wholly disingenuous.

We can add you to that list if you choose.

Really Craig?

Who is being completely illogical here?

Look yourself in the mirror for a change.

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1248 on: April 15, 2020, 08:48:45 pm »

Just sticking to the facts - Canada having about 10 times smaller population than USA, shows in relative terms significantly fewer infections and deaths than USA or Western Europe.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-curves-compare-canada-and-other-key-nations-1.4881500
Maybe your lower numbers have to due with temperature, weather, population density.  Also, NYC area got 60% of total US infections which could be accounted for as it has 60 million visitors annually in a very dense population.  NYC has about 180% in visitors what Canada has in total population.

All of that doesn't diminish the fact that your PM acted later than Trump and less forcefully.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1249 on: April 15, 2020, 08:53:48 pm »

Well the one person who started to go down this path and bring in economists and business experts to discuss just this is being skewered by the press for it.  I'm sure you can guess who that is. 
Trump is suppose to release the initial interdisciplinary  plan tomorrow.  So we'll all get to see what it is.  I only have two questions.  How close will it match mine?  And does it start May 4th? :)

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1250 on: April 15, 2020, 08:58:15 pm »

But Trudeau isn't out there with his blame gun aiming it at anything that moves...like your pres. WHO's fault, Obama's fault, CDC's fault...everyone except himself. That's typical. Trudeau sticks to the facts, relies on the experts for guidance, works closely and efficiently with the provinces and territories and is a calming voice every day during his conferences. Now contest that with Trump where it seems something controversial or upsetting results out of every one of his conferences. He's even using them to show off an election propoganda video.

Huge differences between the two leaders...and huge differences in the way the two countries are faring with this virus.
You're confusing substance and style.  The fact remains your guy Trudeau started later than our guy Trump.  Everything else is conversation.   

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5080
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1251 on: April 15, 2020, 08:59:23 pm »

Trump is suppose to release the initial interdisciplinary  plan tomorrow.  So we'll all get to see what it is.  I only have two questions.  How close will it match mine?  And does it start May 4th? :)

Fortunately for our pleasure, CNN has already released Jim Acosta's reporting on it.
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5513
    • Robert's Photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1252 on: April 15, 2020, 09:18:02 pm »


Insofar as the Spanish Flu of 1918, how do you know social distancing really helped?  Maybe it did not matter at all.  Maybe that flue was so deadly because they just did not have the treatments we have now.

A number of historical reports have shown this.
Logged
--
Robert

chez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2501
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1253 on: April 15, 2020, 09:21:29 pm »

Maybe your lower numbers have to due with temperature, weather, population density.  Also, NYC area got 60% of total US infections which could be accounted for as it has 60 million visitors annually in a very dense population.  NYC has about 180% in visitors what Canada has in total population.

All of that doesn't diminish the fact that your PM acted later than Trump and less forcefully.

Bottom line, Canada's reaction and measures result in better outcomes.

Temperature...didn't your commander in chief say warm weather will miraculously kill the virus...like magic. This goes against it being colder in Canada.

Population density. Vancouver's density is only second to NYC and there is a huge Asian contingent. There are many direct flights to the Far East, many visitors and in fact a huge amount of back and forth business. But incoming residents were self quaranteened for 14 days, no matter if you had a cough or were perfectly fine.

You say less forcefully...please expand. How many of your returning residents were quaranteened for 14 days? How many do you think just slipped through and spread the virus all over? I recall Washington State being hit first and they were begging for ventilators and PPE's. They were beginning for test kits...nothing came. I get the local Seattle news...it was really sad to watch as medical people had no tools to help fight the virus.

So you say forcefully...I say BS...proofs in the pudding and the results show it.
Logged

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5513
    • Robert's Photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1254 on: April 15, 2020, 09:25:03 pm »

Listening to a podcast with the Hoover Institute right now (and yes, I know it's conservative) and an interesting point was made.  Their is no way we can know what the fatality rate is right now.  It is obviously low, since people are not dying left and right from this, but you can not say this is more deadly then the flu without wide scale testing. 

Yet no one in the media ever questions the experts on this when they say it is 10x more deadly then the flu.  Once again, we are making decisions on unknowns instead of knowns and running around like a chicken without a head.

Everyone in the media and elsewhere question this all the time. That's why it keeps getting asked. People want to know if the mortality rate 1% or not, or 0.3% or not. I don't know why you keep harping on the fact that we don't the final exact number. Everybody knows that we don't know the final exact number. You are not revealing a hidden truth to anyone.

But I don't get your continued position that it's not that serious. The USA has had 30,000 deaths in about 6 weeks now and that's WITH many areas requiring physical distancing. We may not know the EXACT mortality rate yet, but I don't know how you can arrive at the idea that it's not much more serious than a regular flu. That seems like such a bizarre statement. That's not anything like normal.
Logged
--
Robert

chez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2501
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1255 on: April 15, 2020, 09:29:06 pm »

You're confusing substance and style.  The fact remains your guy Trudeau started later than our guy Trump.  Everything else is conversation.

Maybe you are right...but you guy Trump fumbled the ball badly...got confused part way through dealing with a crisis and thought he was in a political campaign...started show boating "It will miraculously disappear in April" and lost all credibility with the governors. In other words...he royally screwed the pooch on this one...and now he is gunning for scapegoats. I think I've seen this movie before.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1256 on: April 15, 2020, 09:30:21 pm »

Bottom line, Canada's reaction and measures result in better outcomes.

Temperature...didn't your commander in chief say warm weather will miraculously kill the virus...like magic. This goes against it being colder in Canada.

Population density. Vancouver's density is only second to NYC and there is a huge Asian contingent. There are many direct flights to the Far East, many visitors and in fact a huge amount of back and forth business. But incoming residents were self quaranteened for 14 days, no matter if you had a cough or were perfectly fine.

You say less forcefully...please expand. How many of your returning residents were quaranteened for 14 days? How many do you think just slipped through and spread the virus all over? I recall Washington State being hit first and they were begging for ventilators and PPE's. They were beginning for test kits...nothing came. I get the local Seattle news...it was really sad to watch as medical people had no tools to help fight the virus.

So you say forcefully...I say BS...proofs in the pudding and the results show it.
OK So explain why you have lower numbers.  You were the one I believe arguing that because TRump started later, we have more cases.  But he started earlier.  So how come you have less cases?  Saying you're smarter doesn't get it.  Why?

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1257 on: April 15, 2020, 09:32:15 pm »

Maybe you are right...but you guy Trump fumbled the ball badly...got confused part way through dealing with a crisis and thought he was in a political campaign...started show boating "It will miraculously disappear in April" and lost all credibility with the governors. In other words...he royally screwed the pooch on this one...and now he is gunning for scapegoats. I think I've seen this movie before.
Well, it may disappear in May which is pretty close. 

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5566
    • Photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1258 on: April 15, 2020, 09:36:11 pm »

I won't say the virus isn't a terrible thing and certainly people like yourself who work in hospitals are taking chances.  I deeply respect and appreciate what you do.  But I'm wondering whether it's more contagious? Until we test the general public, we won't know how many have been carriers with no or few symptoms (asymptomatic).  I also question why there's little comparison in the news to seasonal flu.  I believe part of that is that media sells better on bad news.  It seems every upcoming storm is going to be the worst of the last century. 

I checked the current figures for seasonal flu for the 2018-2019 season which runs 6 months from Oct- March approximately.  Note that the numbers are larger than Covid-19, although the deaths will probably exceed flu by the time it's over.  Additionally, the flu has a vaccine that was around 45% effective this season.  In the 2018-2019 season in prevented 4 millions cases, 58,000 hospitalizations and 3500 deaths. (20% of the cases and 10% of the deaths which says something about whether to take the vaccine, but that's another story.)  Additionally, over 99% of flu cases are susceptible to four different antiviral drugs. So the cases and deaths would have been a higher except for drugs and vaccines.  I don't know how many lives the 4 anti-viral drugs save.  But I'm sure the information is in the links somewhere; you can check. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

None of this is to diminish the threat of Covid-19.  But it's important to put it in the context of other viruses that hit us every year.  Shutting down the economy causes deaths and medical challenges such as starvation, suicide, mental issues, homelessness, marital breakups, educational deficiencies, loss of savings and jobs, drug and alcohol addiction, reduction of care for other diseases that aren't being addressed and deaths caused from that, etc. We have to be cautious that we don't over react.  Otherwise the cure might be worse than the disease.

"CDC estimates that the burden of illness during the 2018–2019 season included an estimated 35.5 million people getting sick with influenza, 16.5 million people going to a health care provider for their illness, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths from influenza"
(By comparison, there are currently 633,267 cases and 28,278 deaths from Covid 19).

"Antiviral medications are an important adjunct to flu vaccine in the control of influenza. Almost all (>99%) of the influenza viruses tested this season are susceptible to the four FDA-approved influenza antiviral medications recommended for use in the U.S. this season.


Contagious is not what you think it means. If anything, more testing will show it to be more contagious.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #1259 on: April 15, 2020, 09:38:16 pm »

Contagious is not what you think it means. If anything, more testing will show it to be more contagious.
It may be morem contagious.  But do the cases and deaths justify shutting down an entire economy? 
Pages: 1 ... 61 62 [63] 64 65 ... 400   Go Up