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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 511297 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #420 on: April 09, 2020, 01:30:08 pm »

Who really cares about the election...I think Trump better figure out how to get out of the catastrophe he's walling in. Death toll out of control...economy down the tubes...and you talk about Biden. Biden might have to be shoveling all the shit left over from Trump come this fall.

Models dropped again to less than 60K, and we are already talking about how to re-open. 
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #421 on: April 09, 2020, 01:36:39 pm »

Models dropped again to less than 60K, and we are already talking about how to re-open. 

The 60K model is based on not re-opening till the end of May.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #422 on: April 09, 2020, 01:39:29 pm »

The 60K model is based on not re-opening till the end of May.
Whew! Just seven more weeks of this.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #423 on: April 09, 2020, 01:42:53 pm »

The 60K model is based on not re-opening till the end of May.

But they keep on going down and down and down and down ...

Oh, and BTW, with the exception of the very first ones, all of them have taken into account that we would be locked down, and yet they have all be wrong. 

I've lost all trust in these models BTW, and not long before people do as well. 

I don't think any of the medical experts knows their ass from a hole in the ground, and the media's wet dream of destroying the economy is just not going to come.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 01:53:50 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #424 on: April 09, 2020, 02:04:20 pm »

David Frum of The Atlantic has written a long piece about the unfolding of the Covid-19 pandemic in the USA and Trump's litany of failures, https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/americans-are-paying-the-price-for-trumps-failures/609532/.
The Atlantic is a liberal magazine who hates Trump.  Frum admits to having voted for Hillary Clinton and called for Trump to resign in 2017. I would not expect anything less from Atlantic's Senior editor.

armand

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #425 on: April 09, 2020, 02:05:57 pm »

The models depend on what data you input, and all of them depend on what the people will do. Is a stay at home order in place? How extensive it is and how well is it followed? Depending on the answers the input data changes, and subsequently the output data.
What people don't take into account is that a majority of cases come from just few places, quite small geographically. The current social distancing is trying to prevent a similar spread to other parts of the country.

To give you quick example: if suddenly all US is under strict lockdown, with no movement whatsoever, the virus will likely fade and disappear in a month. Then all models will be wrong again. However, if half the people will ignore the order it, you might as well throw the modeling away.



No it is not.  You, and the author, are operating under the hindsight fallacy. 

The whole premise is that anyone else could have done better in this emergency that not a single person foresaw.  That is a logically unsound argument. 

What author? The lady from CDC said it will be bad, Trump and company jumped on her to shut up, that she's saying this because she's a relative of somebody with who Trump had issues with, I think from department of justice (as if that would be hard). A month and half later, we know she was right. And Trump probably knew too but elected to say otherwise, aka lying.

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #426 on: April 09, 2020, 02:09:27 pm »

The models depend on what data you input, and all of them depend on what the people will do. Is a stay at home order in place? How extensive it is and how well is it followed? Depending on the answers the input data changes, and subsequently the output data.
What people don't take into account is that a majority of cases come from just few places, quite small geographically. The current social distancing is trying to prevent a similar spread to other parts of the country.

To give you quick example: if suddenly all US is under strict lockdown, with no movement whatsoever, the virus will likely fade and disappear in a month. Then all models will be wrong again. However, if half the people will ignore the order it, you might as well throw the modeling away.



What author? The lady from CDC said it will be bad, Trump and company jumped on her to shut up, that she's saying this because she's a relative of somebody with who Trump had issues with, I think from department of justice (as if that would be hard). A month and half later, we know she was right. And Trump probably knew too but elected to say otherwise, aka lying.

All of the models, except for the very first ones, have taken into account what we have been doing and they have all been wrong. 

Meet the former NYT reporter who is challenging the coronavirus narrative

This guy is a medical reporter that typically covers the Pharma industry.  I am not saying he is 100% correct, but I trust him more then most reporters who do not have a background in covering these type of stories.  And it those type of reporters without any experience that are putting out the news stories in the mainstream media. 

The White House press room should be filled with medical reporters, but instead we get Jim Acosta who is more interested in himself then anyone else. 

Sorry, but my trust in these models has disintegrated.  Each day they go down.  With the exception of NYC, which may be an exception due to it density and that public transportation is the main way of moving from one place to another, no place in the country is getting near run down. 

I dont have any more faith in these people any more, but hey, I should not surprised I guess since these are the same people who have given us wrong climate models too. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 02:14:06 pm by JoeKitchen »
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armand

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #427 on: April 09, 2020, 02:16:59 pm »

I'm not going to defend any particular model, I don't know how they been developed and some will not be that reliable. It does matter however that ALL will change predictions based on what the humans do. If the death numbers go down, I take it as a sign the current policy is working. This is the fallacy of these interventions: if they work, people will only see the decreased number of deaths and start questioning having the policy in the first place. You can't win.

armand

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #428 on: April 09, 2020, 02:19:16 pm »

All of the models, except for the very first ones, have taken into account what we have been doing and they have all been wrong. 

Meet the former NYT reporter who is challenging the coronavirus narrative

...

Sorry, but my trust in these models has disintegrated.  Each day they go down.  With the exception of NYC, which may be an exception due to it density and that public transportation is the main way of moving from one place to another, no place in the country is getting near run down. 

I dont have any more faith in these people any more, but hey, I should not surprised I guess since these are the same people who have given us wrong climate models too.

Maybe you should talk to Detroit area.

What has climate to do with this? Besides using some form of statistics. Which is used in a ton of places in our lives to start with.

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #429 on: April 09, 2020, 02:22:55 pm »

Maybe you should talk to Detroit area.

What has climate to do with this? Besides using some form of statistics. Which is used in a ton of places in our lives to start with.

Did you even read the article? 

Many places are showing a spike that happened already, before any effects of social distancing could have taken root.  I just dont trust these models anymore, and dont think we should be using them for policy decisions either. 

They have all been wrong so far, and I think there is a political effort to not cut these short so people can create the narrative that if we did nothing many more people would have died.  If they admit this was for not now, it would bring huge political consequences. 

But, IMO, it is time to end this.  They have lost my trust, full stop.  I'm done listening to this anymore; I'm going back to getting work done, albeit with a little more caution. 

Im tired of listen to idiots in the media who have no experience reporting on medical issues hysterically report in this.  They are not the type of reporters that should be, and it is starting to show. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 02:34:18 pm by JoeKitchen »
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armand

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #430 on: April 09, 2020, 02:35:14 pm »

Did you even read the article? 

Many places are showing a spike that happened already, before any effects of social distancing could have taken root.  I just dont trust these models anymore, and dont think we should be using them for policy decisions either. 

They have all been wrong so far, and I think there is a political effort to not cut these short so people can create the narrative that if we nothing many more people would die.  If they admit this was for not now, it would bring huge political consequences. 

But, IMO, it is time to end this.  They have lost my trust, full stop. 

Im tired of listen to idiots in the media who have no experience reporting on medical issues hysterically report in this.  They are not the type of reporters that should be, and it is starting to show.

I've read it. When you look at stuff with colored glasses everything looks that color. Just looking superficially through data can lead to misinterpretation. There could other factors in play, such as people already practising some form of distancing because of fear of getting sick.



You said no other area outside NYC got hit that bad. I said go look at Detroit. They are as bad as NYC.

JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #431 on: April 09, 2020, 02:41:02 pm »

I've read it. When you look at stuff with colored glasses everything looks that color. Just looking superficially through data can lead to misinterpretation. There could other factors in play, such as people already practising some form of distancing because of fear of getting sick.



You said no other area outside NYC got hit that bad. I said go look at Detroit. They are as bad as NYC.

The extreme level of concentrated poverty and unhealthy individuals seems to be having a huge effect there. 

But look at Japan.  They are doing better then most with little being done.  Like I said, there are measures that need to be take, but a full lockdown is not it.  After these models keep on getting proven wrong day after day, it is time to start going out and back to work. 

I'm scheduling work next week. 

PS, I think this is the best quote on this so far, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But a pound of prevention can bankrupt you."
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 02:58:10 pm by JoeKitchen »
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #432 on: April 09, 2020, 02:59:50 pm »

But look at Japan.  They are doing better then most with little being done.  Like I said, there are measures that need to be take, but a full lockdown is not it.  After these models keep on getting proven to wrong day after day, it is time to start going out and back to work. 

Could be because they are eating less cheese.

Quote
Japanese eat more dairy products today than they did thirty or forty years ago. They still eat and drink much less dairy food than Americans and Europeans, because dairy products were not part of the traditional Japanese diet.

http://www.crosscurrents.hawaii.edu/content.aspx?lang=eng&site=japan&theme=food&subtheme=EATING&unit=JFOOD022
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JoeKitchen

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #434 on: April 09, 2020, 03:02:22 pm »

Do you have a week?  First have you actually read it?

But we can start with this as it pretty much sums up this authors take on things ( and it is David Frum so this is his entire stance since Trump was elected)

"It didn’t have to be this way. If somebody else had been president of the United States in December 2019—Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush, Mike Pence, really almost anybody else—the United States would still have been afflicted by the coronavirus. But it would have been better prepared, and better able to respond."

If the author makes a claim like this, that is IMPOSSIBLE to substatiate, can we trust his other claims? 

But you are correct perhaps it might be an interesting process to disect this hit piece, claim by claim and in the process expose the false logic that others want to use to disparage this President and his actions.  I'll give it some thought and see if I want to commit that kind of time and effort.


The anti-Trump forces want you to spend your time defending why he didn't screw up initially so they won't have to discuss how he killed the bug and restored the economy and saved the day. They don't want you to talk about his leadership skills. Don't fall for it.

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #435 on: April 09, 2020, 03:05:21 pm »

The anti-Trump forces want you to spend your time defending why he didn't screw up initially so they won't have to discuss how he killed the bug and restored the economy and saved the day. They don't want you to talk about his leadership skills. Don't fall for it.
I don’t think we are quite at the killed the bug, restored the economy, and saved the day stage yet.
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #436 on: April 09, 2020, 03:08:32 pm »

The extreme level of concentrated poverty and unhealthy individuals seems to be having a huge effect there. 

But look at Japan.  They are doing better then most with little being done.  Like I said, there are measures that need to be take, but a full lockdown is not it.  After these models keep on getting proven wrong day after day, it is time to start going out and back to work. 

I'm scheduling work next week. 

PS, I think this is the best quote on this so far, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But a pound of prevention can bankrupt you."

Then there's Sweden.

https://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/
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chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #437 on: April 09, 2020, 03:13:47 pm »



Please show me where I ever said such a thing.

Now was the economy a concern and should it have been?  I say yes, and I'll even suggest it was a concern for every Leader in the world as they looked a the shifting information as this virus progressed and made plans to deal with it.

Trump started meeting and set up his task force at the end of January and had the resources in place to help him make decisions and help America including the CDC and the NIH.  Are you suggesting that somehow he should have acted differently prior to the end of January?

To say he was going it alone is silly.

Yes, nothing was in place...no test kits, no ventilators, no masks...nothing. Now the scramble us on. The crack down on social distancing occurred too late after all the partying in Florida and New Orleans...and before you bring in the states are responsible...I'm sure Trump has some overriding command he could I still which would force the states to comply. Also there was no screening of US citizens coming from abroad...in fact coming from China nor mandatory self quaranteen for 14 days.

Sure I'm looking at these measures with hindsight...but we expect our Commander in Chief not to look in hindsight, but foresight and take the necessary steps to avert catastrophe.

Trillions are spent foreward looking at terrorist attacks...yet this pandemic is doing so many magnitudes more damage than all terrorist attacks combined. Truly if there was a desire to do so, this virus I could have been handled much better saving thousands of lives. Now everyone is in chaos mode and looking to blame others.
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chez

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #438 on: April 09, 2020, 03:15:54 pm »

Whew! Just seven more weeks of this.

What about the projected 45k more dead.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #439 on: April 09, 2020, 03:17:13 pm »

The anti-Trump forces want you to ....

Sounds like a 50s red scare film.

For someone who claims to hate government you say some weird shit.
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