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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 190794 times)

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6320 on: July 17, 2020, 05:05:09 pm »

Here's an interesting story about the handling of protesters in Portland, Oregon, https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/#.XxD9y_CwH4w.twitter.

Unidentified federal law enforcement snatching people off the street. Very KGB. The only thing missing is Joe McCarthy.

Well, no. McCarthy might have thought it, but never would have had the balls to actually do it.
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6321 on: July 17, 2020, 05:29:33 pm »

Alan, there is almost no inflation. There hasn't been for years. The Federal Reserve is more worried about deflation.

The gas is cheaper, but the medical bills, among other things, have been increased.
In my local plaza, there were two barbershops. One went out of business during the lockdown and the other raised the prices.

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As private health services such as dentists, chiropractors and physiotherapists begin to reopen, some have opted to tack on a COVID-19 surcharge in an effort to recoup money spent on new sanitation.

University of Toronto finance professor Lisa Kramer explained that these "COVID fees" are designed to help cover the cost of personal protective equipment (PPE), increased sanitation measures and income lost from reduced customer capacity due to physical distancing.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/some-health-services-adding-covid-fee-as-more-businesses-reopen-1.4996388
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6322 on: July 17, 2020, 06:48:04 pm »

The gas is cheaper, but the medical bills, among other things, have been increased.
In my local plaza, there were two barbershops. One went out of business during the lockdown and the other raised the prices.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/some-health-services-adding-covid-fee-as-more-businesses-reopen-1.4996388

The beauty of the free market system is that if the business warrants another barber shop, one will open and will compete for a client base, sometimes by lower their price. If another barber shop does not open up, it probably is not required.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6323 on: July 17, 2020, 07:15:30 pm »

  Plus the Fed backstops the banks who were holding all that bad debt.  That's their job.   

Wait, what?  Isn't that socialism?  Why should the government backstop (some) banks who made risky bets?

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6324 on: July 18, 2020, 12:45:43 am »

But did you lose your business because you were ordered to shut down...or did you lose your business because it just could not compete anymore and someone else took over. That's a big difference. A business today could have been flourishing but had to shut down by no fault of the business. I think if the government orders a business to shut down...then the government should have the responsibility to keep that business afloat as much as possible until it can open up again.
The government is us.  The government gets its money from you and me. In any case, all sorts of stuff happens in life: war, disease, earthquakes, too much competition, etc.  Why should people who don;t receive any of the profits subsidize the owner when things go bad?  That's the risk you take to earn extra money when you go into business.  But the most important thing is by helping marginal companies, you're throwing out good money after bad.  YOu damaging the overall economy that's going to hurt a lot more people and businesses due to all that debt and printing.

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6325 on: July 18, 2020, 12:58:57 am »

Alan, there is almost no inflation. There hasn't been for years. The Federal Reserve is more worried about deflation.
The definition of inflation is adding money to the money supply.  And that's what we're doing.  Price inflation, what you're referring to, follows printing. Right now all that money is being tied up in bubbles: real estate, stock market, foreign purchases, etc.  But it will end.  Maybe next month or next year. It will make up for all the bubbles and hit us in spades. On top of the printing, production is down, roughly 24%.  That means there is even more dollars chasing fewer goods which raises prices.  The 1970's stagflation will repeat.  Here are the inflation rates for those years.

1969     5.5
1970     5.7
1971      4.4
1972     3.2
1973      6.2
1974     11.0
1975      9.1
1976      5.8
1977      6.5
1978     7.6
1979      11.3
1980      13.5
1981      10.3
1982      6.2

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6326 on: July 18, 2020, 01:04:26 am »

Wait, what?  Isn't that socialism?  Why should the government backstop (some) banks who made risky bets?


I wasn't approving what the Fed does.  I was referring to their job when they were set up.  That was to protect the banks.  So when banks get into trouble, the Fed bails them out.  Their job is not to protect the economy when they were started.  Their job was to protect banks.  That's bad enough.  But now, they bailing out corporations and people.  That was never in their charter.  But Congress is letting them do it because they want to get re-elected.  The whole thing is unconstitutional and incestual.

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6327 on: July 18, 2020, 01:05:24 am »

Yes, it's Socialism for the rich mainly but everyone is getting in on the act. 

jeremyrh

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6328 on: July 18, 2020, 03:51:03 am »

Here's an interesting story about the handling of protesters in Portland, Oregon, https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/#.XxD9y_CwH4w.twitter.

Unidentified federal law enforcement snatching people off the street. Very KGB. The only thing missing is Joe McCarthy.

Just Trump trying to copy his hero Putin.
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6329 on: July 18, 2020, 09:36:37 am »

The government is us.  The government gets its money from you and me. In any case, all sorts of stuff happens in life: war, disease, earthquakes, too much competition, etc.  Why should people who don;t receive any of the profits subsidize the owner when things go bad?  That's the risk you take to earn extra money when you go into business.  But the most important thing is by helping marginal companies, you're throwing out good money after bad.  YOu damaging the overall economy that's going to hurt a lot more people and businesses due to all that debt and printing.

So who determines a marginal company from a well run company...and how? Or should the government just shut down all companies for say 4 months with no compensation...and the strong will emerge? Should the government let the airlines die and then be in a big pickle when it tries to open up and there is no travel?

How would you feel if you still owned your company...no pension yet and were forced to shut down without any income for 4 months. You were obviously a marginal company as you went under on your own without a shutdown.

You talk about the people starving...where would these starving people go to work if their "marginal" company goes out of business during the shutdown?

Alan, you seem to complain about everything an awful lot. Rather than complain which is a destructive action...what are your solutions to all these complaints?
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6330 on: July 18, 2020, 09:37:07 am »

White House portraits of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush moved from prominent space to rarely used room

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/17/politics/white-house-portraits-clinton-bush-trump/index.html

Of course the President can do what he wants, but this is called, in the vernacular, chicken shit. He has better things he can do with his time, but as best I can tell he has given up doing anything at all, except watching TV and phoning in to Fox News shows. Oh, I forgot, he is hawking Mexican food products on his Twitter feed. It seems he is on a suicide mission to lose the election.

The upside is we are going to have an new expression. Instead of saying "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic", we'll say "rearranging the portraits in the White House". "Things are going to hell in a hand basket, and he's rearranging the portraits in the White House" has a nice ring to it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 11:22:46 am by faberryman »
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6331 on: July 18, 2020, 09:55:38 am »

White House portraits of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush moved from prominent space to rarely used room

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/17/politics/white-house-portraits-clinton-bush-trump/index.html

Of course the President can do what he wants, but this is called, in the vernacular, chicken shit. He has better things he can do with his time, but as best I can tell he has given up doing anything at all, except watching TV and phoning in to Fox News shows. Oh, I forgot, he is hawking Mexican food products on his Twitter feed. It seems he is on a suicide mission to lose the election.

A deranged person. Country is in chaos and this is what he's focused on.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6332 on: July 18, 2020, 10:02:34 am »

So who determines a marginal company from a well run company...and how? Or should the government just shut down all companies for say 4 months with no compensation...and the strong will emerge? Should the government let the airlines die and then be in a big pickle when it tries to open up and there is no travel?

How would you feel if you still owned your company...no pension yet and were forced to shut down without any income for 4 months. You were obviously a marginal company as you went under on your own without a shutdown.

You talk about the people starving...where would these starving people go to work if their "marginal" company goes out of business during the shutdown?

Alan, you seem to complain about everything an awful lot. Rather than complain which is a destructive action...what are your solutions to all these complaints?
The solution is to let free markets work.  That's what capitalistic economies are about.  The government is not involved.  What's happened is that government caused the problem in the first place.  By keeping interest rates too low and giving too much money out, they encourage debt and created bubbles.  Companies went into business that shouldn’t and bought too much stuff because of cheap debt.  Now when there's a turn down, they're in trouble.  Also, the government didn't allow the recessions to occur either in 2001 after the dot com boom, after the 2008 housing crisis and now again with coronavirus.  The Fed just keeps pumping money in blowing up an inflated bubbles.  Recessions are good.  They allow the natural forces of economics to wean the sick and marginal companies regularly.  We hadn’t allowed that to happen.
 
If someone gets into trouble with their credit cards, you don't solve their problem by giving them another card.  That's what the government has been doing with the economy and recessions.

Regarding companies that are in trouble, let them use bankruptcy law.  That’s what they’re for.  When they file for bankruptcy, everything freezes including creditor debt.  They’re allowed a chance to reorganize.  An airline could sell off all the planes they don’t need.  Cut staff. Maybe they can join with another airline in trouble and create a single airline rather than two.  Airlines had been doing that for years.  Where’s TWA?  Pan Am?  Eastern? Trump Airlines?  ;)  They were absorbed by other more profitable airlines. After all, who needs all these airlines?  No one’s flying.  What’s the point giving them billions and billions to waste with airplanes idle?  Additionally, this would make the remaining airlines more successful to get through the crises.  The government is creating unnatural competition by supporting losing companies against other companies that could survive if it were not for government helping the less competitive competition. Otherwise you just create zombie corporations where executives are going to give themselves big bonuses before the whole corporation collapses anyway. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 10:06:38 am by Alan Klein »
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6333 on: July 18, 2020, 10:22:45 am »

The solution is to let free markets work.  That's what capitalistic economies are about.  The government is not involved.  What's happened is that government caused the problem in the first place.  By keeping interest rates too low and giving too much money out, they encourage debt and created bubbles.  Companies went into business that shouldn’t and bought too much stuff because of cheap debt.  Now when there's a turn down, they're in trouble.  Also, the government didn't allow the recessions to occur either in 2001 after the dot com boom, after the 2008 housing crisis and now again with coronavirus.  The Fed just keeps pumping money in blowing up an inflated bubbles.  Recessions are good.  They allow the natural forces of economics to wean the sick and marginal companies regularly.  We hadn’t allowed that to happen.
 
If someone gets into trouble with their credit cards, you don't solve their problem by giving them another card.  That's what the government has been doing with the economy and recessions.

Regarding companies that are in trouble, let them use bankruptcy law.  That’s what they’re for.  When they file for bankruptcy, everything freezes including creditor debt.  They’re allowed a chance to reorganize.  An airline could sell off all the planes they don’t need.  Cut staff. Maybe they can join with another airline in trouble and create a single airline rather than two.  Airlines had been doing that for years.  Where’s TWA?  Pan Am?  Eastern? Trump Airlines?  ;)  They were absorbed by other more profitable airlines. After all, who needs all these airlines?  No one’s flying.  What’s the point giving them billions and billions to waste with airplanes idle?  Additionally, this would make the remaining airlines more successful to get through the crises.  The government is creating unnatural competition by supporting losing companies against other companies that could survive if it were not for government helping the less competitive competition. Otherwise you just create zombie corporations where executives are going to give themselves big bonuses before the whole corporation collapses anyway.

Yes...they can reorganize, cut staff etc... But weren't you bitching about companies cutting staff, people no working and starving. Wasn't that you Alan? So these companies that go bankrupt because of the shutdown, many not to bounce back for years...laying off millions...where do these people work? Does the government still not have to support these people...or does your government let them starve ( your words )? Is it not better supporting these millions of layer off people by keeping their original jobs afloat while this pendemic runs its course. In either way, money will need to be spent...no way out of it.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6334 on: July 18, 2020, 10:38:25 am »


Quote
I never said companies shouldn't cut staff.  You're confusing me with someone else.  Regarding unemployed people, this isn't the first time we had them.  That's the purpose of state unemployment insurance.  To help them get by until they find another job.  RIght now though, the government is paying them more then when they worked.  I went to my dentist a week ago and his dental assistant wasn't there.  He said she was sick.  But he couldn't get a temporary because none of them want to work.  They're getting more from the government for not working then they would get if they went back to work.  Where's the sense in that?

While there are arguments for unemployment insurance from the government, that's different than bailing out companies.  Let the stockholders take the hit not the public.  They didn't share their profits with me when they were getting rich.  Why should I subsidize them when they're in trouble? Owners of small firms are getting $150,000 and up for nothing.  They shut down their businesses and the owner keeps the money.  How is that fair to you and me? 
Now they want to eliminate any audits.  Just let them keep the money.  Blanket forgiveness.  No review. No nothing.  Now, they want to give out even more money.  Of course, the government will check better this time.  Do you really believe that? 

Aren't you happy that you gave the Korean nail place owner down the street $150,000 of your money so she could shut it down and take a trip to her home country?
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/not-all-ppp-loans-need-be-verified-suggests-treasury-secretary-n1234233
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 10:49:39 am by Alan Klein »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6335 on: July 18, 2020, 11:13:44 am »

Now they want to eliminate any audits.  Just let them keep the money.  Blanket forgiveness.  No review. No nothing.  Now, they want to give out even more money.  Of course, the government will check better this time.  Do you really believe that? 

Aren't you happy that you gave the Korean nail place owner down the street $150,000 of your money so she could shut it down and take a trip to her home country?
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/not-all-ppp-loans-need-be-verified-suggests-treasury-secretary-n1234233

One tends to get what one votes for ...

And to get back on topic, that also applies to Government's protection of its citizens, whether in war- or peacetime.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6336 on: July 18, 2020, 11:16:58 am »

Aren't you happy that you gave the Korean nail place owner down the street $150,000 of your money so she could shut it down and take a trip to her home country?

Korean nail place? The truth emerges.
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6337 on: July 18, 2020, 11:27:17 am »

Korean nail place? The truth emerges.

Yeh...the stripes are starting to showing on the zebra.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6338 on: July 18, 2020, 11:46:18 am »

Trump to Chris Wallace on last weekend's Fox News Sunday talk show:

"“Dr. [Anthony] Fauci said don’t wear a mask, our surgeon general — terrific guy — said don’t wear a mask. Everybody was saying don’t wear a mask, all of a sudden everybody’s got to wear a mask,” Trump continued. “And as you know, masks cause problems too. With that being said, I am a believer in masks. I think masks are good.”

What are the problems masks cause? The only problem I have heard about masks is not wearing one while shopping in Walmart. Every day there is a new incident about someone getting shot over the mask issue. Wearing a mask so you don't get shot seems like a reasonable precaution. That you don't breathe your germs all over other people is just a bonus.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6339 on: July 18, 2020, 11:58:54 am »

Korean nail place? The truth emerges.

Aren't they all Korean?  They are here where I live.  But then I don't have my nails done to know for sure.  OK  How about Italian pizza store owners? Indian owned Dunkin Donuts? Jewish owned Kosher deli's? White owned confederate flag and memorabilia stores?  The point is the owners are getting bonuses when they go out of business from the general public who can ill afford it.  Are you in favor of that? 
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