PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[hogloff]

But they would have replaced them.  Now they're getting rid of them because no one is flying.  Boeing and Airbus are laying off thousands.

Shake the airlines industry...they've been too stagnant of late. Let's see what new emerges as demand starts increasing.

[Alan Klein]

The 2008 crisis is what allowed me to retire at age 57. I invested wisely after the market dropped...made a killing on some bank stocks and Apple...now just playing the market again to make a quick buck. Like everything else...things always come back if there is a need for them. If they don't come back...then maybe there just wasn't a need in the first place. We have restaurants close shop every year in my city...but new ones spring up taking their place as the need justifies them. Simple supply and demand.

I agree.  Problem is the government isn't letting them die.  We've got zombie corporations and zombie small businesses.  Recessions cause the one's failing or less competitive to die out. Free markets get rid of the dead weight and allow the better businesses to flourish.  Employees shift to those companies and make more money because they're more productive.

But that's not happening.  We're printing and giving money to these dead weights wasting precious and limited resources and adding huge debt.  That debt has to be paid back with higher taxes which hurts the economy and will cause more job loses.  Inflation sucks the value out of the currency, including savings and salaries. 

[James Clark]

Here's an interesting story about the handling of protesters in Portland, Oregon, https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/#.XxD9y_CwH4w.twitter.

Unidentified federal law enforcement snatching people off the street. Very KGB. The only thing missing is Joe McCarthy.

Scary stuff

[Alan Klein]

Shake the airlines industry...they've been too stagnant of late. Let's see what new emerges as demand starts increasing.

But the government is giving the airlines billions and billions pouring money down a rathole.  That's just wasting resources that could be spent on infrastructure or reducing debt instead of keeping zombie corporations alive that will die or be bought out anyway in a few months.    Trump, Senator McConnell and the Republicans are just as guilty as the left wing Democrats.  I haven't heard one of them talk about inflation and watering down the value of the dollar.  They're all worried about re-election so everyone is trying to buy off the voters.  The next president whoever he is will have his hands full with a ruined economy and massive debt. 

[jeremyrh]

Free markets get rid of the dead weight and allow the better businesses to flourish. 

They don't, though - they favour short term thinking over long term considerations.  That's more or less the thinkng that has got the US into the desperate situation you are in now - short term wish to open the economy. The infection graph in Florida speaks volumes.

[Alan Klein]

They don't, though - they favour short term thinking over long term considerations.  That's more or less the thinkng that has got the US into the desperate situation you are in now - short term wish to open the economy. The infection graph in Florida speaks volumes.

It's socialism not free markets when governments get involved in bailing out companies and buying their bonds and assets.  It never ends well. The stock markets are bubbles that are going to collapse like the real estate bubble in 2008. Everyone wants their economies to open.  Otherwise they'll be dealing with a starving populace.  This is not an either/or situation. 

[jeremyrh]

It's socialism not free markets when governments get involved in bailing out companies and buying their bonds and assets.  It never ends well. The stock markets are bubbles that are going to collapse like the real estate bubble in 2008. Everyone wants their economies to open.  Otherwise they'll be dealing with a starving populace.  This is not an either/or situation.

You are talking your usual brand of rubbish. I suggest you look into the role of government in Silicon Valley. 

Everyone wants their economies to open but only an idiot thinks that this can be done by simply wishing the virus away.

[Alan Klein]

You are talking your usual brand of rubbish. I suggest you look into the role of government in Silicon Valley. 

Everyone wants their economies to open but only an idiot thinks that this can be done by simply wishing the virus away.

You're conflating the issues.  One issue is hw to evaluate when to open the economy or constrain it because of the pandemic.  The other issue is whether to bail out zombie companies and print money to no end or let the economy work it's way through as a free market. 

[jeremyrh]

You're conflating the issues.  One issue is hw to evaluate when to open the economy or constrain it because of the pandemic.  The other issue is whether to bail out zombie companies and print money to no end or let the economy work it's way through as a free market.

Umm no I'm not - I think you'll find it was you who brought up the issue of free markets and zombie companies.

[Alan Klein]

Mnuchin wants to give more money to zombie businesses, the smaller ones that have no clients and many who will be out of business soon.  Restaurants, travel, hospitality, hotels, etc.  No one's using these services.  The owners will be be taking your money and mine and giving themselves going out-of-business bonuses.  That's nuts.  When I lost my business, no one gave me a bonus, money that belonged to someone else.  I couldn't even get unemployment insurance payments because they claimed losing my job as president/CEO was my fault. Comrade Mnuchin and Chairman Trump have lost it.  They've joined their fellow travelers Biden and AOC. 

[Alan Klein]

To add insult to injury:

On eve of bankruptcy, U.S. firms shower execs with bonuses
(Hertz, JC Penney, etc.)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-bankruptcy-bonuses/on-eve-of-bankruptcy-us-firms-shower-execs-with-bonuses-idUSKCN24I1EE

[Peter McLennan]

The next president whoever he is will have his hands full with a ruined economy and massive debt.

Gee. That sounds familiar.  I wonder who that "next president" was? 

And I wonder which side of the political fence that "ruined economy" came from?

And I wonder how many of those failed businesses from the last Capitalist bust were bailed out by the government?  And how many were left to die?

[Alan Klein]

Gee. That sounds familiar.  I wonder who that "next president" was? 

And I wonder which side of the political fence that "ruined economy" came from?

And I wonder how many of those failed businesses from the last Capitalist bust were bailed out by the government?  And how many were left to die?

The Fed bailed out companies in 2008 too.  Their balance sheet went from $800 billion to $4.2 trillion from printing money between 2008 and 2014 creating a bubble in the market.  Remember QE1 and QE2 and QE3?  Now they're at it again inflating the bubble even more.  Trump is just as guilty as Obama.  No president wants a recession on their watch so they push the Fed to print.  Plus the Fed backstops the banks who were holding all that bad debt.  That's their job.   Meanwhile the average, middle class schnook takes it in the neck scratching his head wondering what happened to his money.  It's always been that way. 

[hogloff]

I agree.  Problem is the government isn't letting them die.  We've got zombie corporations and zombie small businesses.  Recessions cause the one's failing or less competitive to die out. Free markets get rid of the dead weight and allow the better businesses to flourish.  Employees shift to those companies and make more money because they're more productive.

But that's not happening.  We're printing and giving money to these dead weights wasting precious and limited resources and adding huge debt.  That debt has to be paid back with higher taxes which hurts the economy and will cause more job loses.  Inflation sucks the value out of the currency, including savings and salaries.

That's ending here since many restrictions have been lifted. Most businesses are open. Some boutique businesses won't make it...but maybe they shouldn't. Some restaurants won't survive with the new distancing restrictions...that's life. If a need for more restaurants arises...you bet more will open up.

Do we all cry for the 1,000's of mom and pop photography stores that closed...or do we just go onto our computers and order the next lens online. Things change...calateral damage happens making way for new things. That's progress.

[hogloff]

But the government is giving the airlines billions and billions pouring money down a rathole.  That's just wasting resources that could be spent on infrastructure or reducing debt instead of keeping zombie corporations alive that will die or be bought out anyway in a few months.    Trump, Senator McConnell and the Republicans are just as guilty as the left wing Democrats.  I haven't heard one of them talk about inflation and watering down the value of the dollar.  They're all worried about re-election so everyone is trying to buy off the voters.  The next president whoever he is will have his hands full with a ruined economy and massive debt.

Your country will die very quickly if your national airlines goes tits up. It's the airline manufactures like Boeing that has been getting easy government money for too long. Stop the freebies and let them compete on their own merits. The f'up with their latest airplane that crashed two planes and killed hundreds should have led to jail terms for Boeings executives as well as all those in the FAA that skipped processes to fast track the certifications.

[jeremyrh]

Do we all cry for the 1,000's of mom and pop photography stores that closed...or do we just go onto our computers and order the next lens online. Things change...calateral damage happens making way for new things. That's progress.

And betamax dies while VHS takes over. That's progress. Oh. Wait. It's not.

[hogloff]

It's socialism not free markets when governments get involved in bailing out companies and buying their bonds and assets.  It never ends well. The stock markets are bubbles that are going to collapse like the real estate bubble in 2008. Everyone wants their economies to open.  Otherwise they'll be dealing with a starving populace.  This is not an either/or situation.

Who is starving except the millions in other parts of the world. You keep saying people are starving...proof.

[hogloff]

When I lost my business, no one gave me a bonus, money that belonged to someone else.  I couldn't even get unemployment insurance payments because they claimed losing my job as president/CEO was my fault. Comrade Mnuchin and Chairman Trump have lost it.  They've joined their fellow travelers Biden and AOC.

But did you lose your business because you were ordered to shut down...or did you lose your business because it just could not compete anymore and someone else took over. That's a big difference. A business today could have been flourishing but had to shut down by no fault of the business. I think if the government orders a business to shut down...then the government should have the responsibility to keep that business afloat as much as possible until it can open up again.

[William Walker]

To all the non-Trump disciples on this thread, this article from Psychology Today will save you a lot of time, effort and frustration. It is summed up as follows:

"So what can we do to potentially change the minds of Trump loyalists before voting day in November? As a cognitive neuroscientist, it grieves me to say that there may be nothing we can do. The overwhelming majority of these people may be beyond reach, at least in the short term. The best we can do is to motivate everyone else to get out to the voting booths.


Another quote from the article:"The only thing that might be more perplexing than the psychology of Donald Trump is the psychology of his supporters."

This article (and video) explains scientifically why we are wasting our time.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201609/the-psychology-behind-donald-trumps-unwavering-support

[John Camp]

I saved money most of my life so I could retire which I am.  The government's printing is just dissipating those savings with inflation.  Most of that money is going to rich bankers and other rich people just like in the 2008 crisis.  The middle class is going to get wiped out as all the money gets devalued and goes to the rich, something I thought you were concerned about.  Maybe you're rich. 

Alan, there is almost no inflation. There hasn't been for years. The Federal Reserve is more worried about deflation.