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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 208713 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5940 on: July 03, 2020, 09:23:35 am »

How do you square that with your often stated belief that "competition" in medicine creates efficiencies and reduces cost for the consumer? Because all the evidence that's ever brought forward in discussions like this one points to exactly the opposite, that costs are totally out of control and out of whack with services rendered. As described, it most often resembles a criminal racket, at least as far as hospital fees are concerned. The very fact that insurance companies or people in the know are able to negotiate large discounts off the invoices, far from being a balm, is just another example of how unfair the racket is.

Medical care is not the same thing as buying hammers or restaurant meals. I don't know what could be more obvious.
Rob, I already explained in my post that it's the government that causes this problem.  50% of medicine in the US is paid for by government.  They regulate it.  Free markets don't apply but to a small extent.  So because government forces lower payments for government programs like Medicare, it forces doctors and hospitals to charge more  to people who are not covered. First the government screws it up.  Then, they call for 100 socialized government care to correct it.  It's perverse.  Everything that government does costs more and has less quality. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5941 on: July 03, 2020, 09:25:27 am »

Look how well government is handling the Covid crisis in America.  We're bankrupt and sick.  Can anyone argue they've done a good job? 

KLaban

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5942 on: July 03, 2020, 09:38:53 am »

Look how well government is handling the Covid crisis in America.  We're bankrupt and sick.  Can anyone argue they've done a good job?

Well, there's a handful of contributors here who still believe your government and leader are doing a splendid job.

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5943 on: July 03, 2020, 09:59:20 am »

Look how well government is handling the Covid crisis in America.  We're bankrupt and sick.  Can anyone argue they've done a good job?

Some governments done better than others. Don't paint everyone with the same brush you got painted with.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5944 on: July 03, 2020, 10:00:54 am »

Look how well government is handling the Covid crisis in America.  We're bankrupt and sick.  Can anyone argue they've done a good job?

Elect better ones.
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Robert

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5945 on: July 03, 2020, 10:08:26 am »

Elect better ones.
America doesn't have a monopoly on incompetent governance.

KLaban

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5946 on: July 03, 2020, 10:09:45 am »

Greece has done incredibly well. They shut down early and hard. At the end of June, Greece, with a population of 10.72 million, had a total of 3,409 confirmed cases and a death toll of 192.

Makes me weep when I think what could have been done here in the UK had we taken a similar path.

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5947 on: July 03, 2020, 10:16:42 am »

America doesn't have a monopoly on incompetent governance.

Yeh, you are in good company with the UK and Brazil...at least with respect to the handling of Covid.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5948 on: July 03, 2020, 10:22:15 am »

America doesn't have a monopoly on incompetent governance.

Far from it, nobody said you did, so why continue to play that card.

But regardless, the solution is always the same, elect better governments.
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Robert

jeremyrh

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5949 on: July 03, 2020, 10:26:32 am »

Look how well government is handling the Covid crisis in America.  We're bankrupt and sick.  Can anyone argue they've done a good job?

Trump does so on a daily basis - are you saying he is wrong?
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5950 on: July 03, 2020, 10:44:08 am »

Yeh, you are in good company with the UK and Brazil...at least with respect to the handling of Covid.
Belgium, Andorra, Spain, Italy, Sweden and France are worse than the USA in death rate per million.  There are other factors bedside government than have had differing effects among countries.   Also, there's been little discussion of economic differences, an important criteria.  We hardly talk about that major issue.  We really won't know the full implications from a medical and economic standpoint until later when we can look back.  Arguing about body counts due to skirmishes in the middle of the war says little about who's going to win it.  Reporting that one country is better because it only has 300 per million dead while another has 400 per million, won;t predict the final damage when this is all over. 
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5951 on: July 03, 2020, 10:50:07 am »

Belgium, Andorra, Spain, Italy, Sweden and France are worse than the USA in death rate per million.  There are other factors bedside government than have had differing effects among countries.   Also, there's been little discussion of economic differences, an important criteria.  We hardly talk about that major issue.  We really won't know the full implications from a medical and economic standpoint until later when we can look back.  Arguing about body counts due to skirmishes in the middle of the war says little about who's going to win it.  Reporting that one country is better because it only has 300 per million dead while another has 400 per million, won;t predict the final damage when this is all over. 
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Yes...we'll have to see who wins the race to the bottom. There are many other countries that already fought off Covid and are in much better space economically than where the US stands today.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5952 on: July 03, 2020, 10:50:56 am »

Far from it, nobody said you did, so why continue to play that card.

But regardless, the solution is always the same, elect better governments.
Actually, America because of its Federal system, is like a petri dish of governance.  Each of the 50 states has their own governor and legislature that writes laws and rules according to their community's desires.  That allows differing procedures.  It allows us to measure different approaches of what works and doesn't work. Then we can adopt the better approaches if we wish.   While the national government in Washington DC has an input, they're only part of the whole thing.  Compare that to Sweden and other countries where procedures were instituted on a national basis. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5953 on: July 03, 2020, 10:53:19 am »

  The government is causing the problem.  If we had real free markets and competition, and the government stopped perverting the market, things would be a lot better and prices lower.   

Precisely the opposite is true, Alan.  The Canadian government strictly regulates the market for both medical services and pharmaceuticals and, as you well know, Canadian (and other “socialist” jurisdictions) prices for medical care are a fraction of yours. 

Canadians don’t go bankrupt and lose their house because they get sick.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5954 on: July 03, 2020, 10:54:26 am »

Yes...we'll have to see who wins the race to the bottom. There are many other countries that already fought off Covid and are in much better space economically than where the US stands today.

You're making the same mistake many others have done by counting America out. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5955 on: July 03, 2020, 11:02:45 am »

Precisely the opposite is true, Alan.  The Canadian government strictly regulates the market for both medical services and pharmaceuticals and, as you well know, Canadian (and other “socialist” jurisdictions) prices for medical care are a fraction of yours. 

Canadians don’t go bankrupt and lose their house because they get sick.

Until the government got involved, that didn't happen in America either.  People had insurance through their employers.  When I had my business 30 years ago, I paid for full health insurance for all my employees and their families.  It was standard practice back then. Those not working were picked up by state health coverage or charity or paid for insurance privately.  Once the government got involved, the whole thing went to pot.  The biggest issue is that cost multiply once government gets involved.  Our prices aren't high because of free markets.  We don't have free markets in America regarding health.  The government has distorted the whole thing forcing prices up.  Meanwhile, in Canada, you have to wait over a year now for some elective surgery.  You could be dead before they schedule you.

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5956 on: July 03, 2020, 11:05:20 am »

Precisely the opposite is true, Alan.  The Canadian government strictly regulates the market for both medical services and pharmaceuticals and, as you well know, Canadian (and other “socialist” jurisdictions) prices for medical care are a fraction of yours. 

Canadians don’t go bankrupt and lose their house because they get sick.

The situation is a little more complicated than that, but it's difficult to discuss on a photo forum. Suffice to sy that Canada also has one large advantage the the US does not have -- Canada is close to the US and can, to some extent, use it as a safety valve for treatments it doesn't provide, and if it did provide, costs would then go higher. The same is true (again, in a complicated way) for pharmaceuticals.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/06/11/canadians-are-one-in-a-million-while-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#536342283e7d
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5957 on: July 03, 2020, 11:40:39 am »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/06/11/canadians-are-one-in-a-million-while-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#536342283e7d

Canadians flocking to America to avoid long wait times is a frequently-quoted meme by those who wish to defend dysfunction in the American system.  It's largely false.  It's also funded by the American healthcare insurance system, who pay liars to promote their position:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.5631285/this-former-u-s-health-insurance-exec-says-he-lied-to-americans-about-canadian-health-care-1.5631874

The Fraser Institute, a rightist supported think tank, wants Canada to revert to a "free market" system.  They, too produce disinformation, even incentivizing Canadian physicians to support their position with cash rewards.

https://pnhp.org/news/critique-of-the-fraser-institute-report-on-wait-times/
 
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5958 on: July 03, 2020, 11:43:30 am »

You're making the same mistake many others have done by counting America out.

With 130,000 deaths and still rising...America has definitely been knocked down twice in the same round...it's got one more to go.
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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5959 on: July 03, 2020, 11:49:40 am »

Until the government got involved, that didn't happen in America either.  People had insurance through their employers.  When I had my business 30 years ago, I paid for full health insurance for all my employees and their families.  It was standard practice back then. Those not working were picked up by state health coverage or charity or paid for insurance privately.  Once the government got involved, the whole thing went to pot.  The biggest issue is that cost multiply once government gets involved.  Our prices aren't high because of free markets.  We don't have free markets in America regarding health.  The government has distorted the whole thing forcing prices up.  Meanwhile, in Canada, you have to wait over a year now for some elective surgery.  You could be dead before they schedule you.

While some Canadians die while waiting for a surgery, many Americans die from unnecessary surgeries.

Quote
Government health statistics shows that American doctors sometimes cause harm instead of good. An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed annually with the number of unnecessary hospital stays around 8.9 million a year.

Annually, between 20 million and 25 million surgeries are performed not including plastic surgery. One study determined that  almost 29% were not necessary (Health In The 21st Century by Fransisco Contreras MD, page 212). One example concluded that 27% of hysterectomies, number two in common surgeries, did not even need this procedure performed.

The number one unnecessary surgery performed deals with heart disease. "When faced with heart disease, doctors recommend a bypass. By so doing, we think, they bypass the real problem. Bypasses are the single most commonly performed unnecessary surgery in the country," write Dr. Mark Hyman and Dr. Mark Liponis in Ultraprevention. Overprescribed and unnecessary, the complications from a severe treatment such as a bypass can cause additional medical issues, such as strokes. All in all, these complications to an unnecessary surgery are common and the expense to health care is very high.

https://sweeneylawfirm.com/content/unnecessary-surgeries
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