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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 208881 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5900 on: June 30, 2020, 09:16:41 am »

You choose never to believe anyone who doesn't tell you what you want to hear.

I see you managed to make another anti-Obama rant in response to something that had nothing to do with Obama. Why do you do this?

Why do you use some liar to prove a point he may be lying about again?  Why are you trying to impose national health care on America?  Why don't you leave us alone and take care of your own medical problems in Canada?  Does misery like company?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5901 on: June 30, 2020, 10:43:09 am »

Why are you trying to impose national health care on America? 

That's quite a leap in logic you made right there. You're just not capable of exchanging ideas and having discussions, are you. It's all just one big messaging exercise for you. I assume that you think that's what discussion is. It isn't.

Anyway, listen. The link I provided was a data point that I thought was worth pointing out to people who have discussed health care in the past on this thread. As usual, you view everything in terms of whether or not it attacks you. If it's something that you might not like, then you view it as an attack. That's a bizarre way to approach things.

It might be a good idea for you just to ignore any links I provide in the future. Your replies are never on point anyway, every topic is just a launch point for you from which to do more preaching.

On the wider subject of your hatred of government, all I can suggest is this. If you're governed by such a large number of incompetent crooks, you only have yourself to blame. Vote in better ones, that's what democracies are supposed to do.

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5902 on: June 30, 2020, 11:52:39 am »

That's quite a leap in logic you made right there. You're just not capable of exchanging ideas and having discussions, are you. It's all just one big messaging exercise for you. I assume that you think that's what discussion is. It isn't.

Anyway, listen. The link I provided was a data point that I thought was worth pointing out to people who have discussed health care in the past on this thread. As usual, you view everything in terms of whether or not it attacks you. If it's something that you might not like, then you view it as an attack. That's a bizarre way to approach things.

It might be a good idea for you just to ignore any links I provide in the future. Your replies are never on point anyway, every topic is just a launch point for you from which to do more preaching.

On the wider subject of your hatred of government, all I can suggest is this. If you're governed by such a large number of incompetent crooks, you only have yourself to blame. Vote in better ones, that's what democracies are supposed to do.


Why do you always feel you have to criticize everything that America is and does?  It never stops.  Don't you ever have something nice to say about us?  We are your neighbors, depend on each other, trade more with each other than the rest of the world.  There must be something positive you can contribute about us or our relationship.  That would be nice to hear.   

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5903 on: June 30, 2020, 11:56:42 am »

Why are you trying to impose national health care on America?  Why don't you leave us alone and take care of your own medical problems in Canada?

We're not trying to "impose" anything, Alan. Americans are well-known for their myopic view of the world.  If we're trying to do anything, it's to point out how you're being cheated by your "system". It's hard for you to see from inside.


Copy and paste from this article two days ago in NYT
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/opinion/coronavirus-medicare-for-all.html?searchResultPosition=1

If American health care were its own country, it would be the fourth largest in the world by gross domestic product. The nation spends an average of $3.5 trillion per year on health care — more than Japan, Germany, France, China, the United Kingdom, Italy, Canada, Brazil, Spain and Australia combined — and still loses more people to preventable and treatable medical conditions than any of those countries do.

This from the CDC: Health and Economic Costs of Chronic Diseases

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/about/costs/index.htm
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5904 on: June 30, 2020, 11:59:39 am »

Don't you ever have something nice to say about us?...That would be nice to hear.

I've said it before on these forums and I'll say it again, Alan:  I've worked and travelled in over fifty countries.  I've visited America extensively, travelling in every state except (unaccountably)  Delaware.

I've never been better treated in any of those countries than I have in the USA.

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5905 on: June 30, 2020, 12:14:06 pm »

I've said it before on these forums and I'll say it again, Alan:  I've worked and travelled in over fifty countries.  I've visited America extensively, travelling in every state except (unaccountably)  Delaware.

I've never been better treated in any of those countries than I have in the USA.



That's nice to hear.  I'm glad you enjoy visiting my country.  I enjoyed visiting Canada too.  See?  We can say nice things about each other.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5906 on: June 30, 2020, 12:32:55 pm »

Why do you always feel you have to criticize everything that America is and does?  It never stops.  Don't you ever have something nice to say about us?  We are your neighbors, depend on each other, trade more with each other than the rest of the world.  There must be something positive you can contribute about us or our relationship.  That would be nice to hear.

You are seriously trying my patience and I may soon go the way of Rob C.

I posted a link to an interview with a guy from the health industry confessing to spreading disinformation. I don't know how you get from there to me constantly bad-mouthing the USA. I am bored of your changes of subject, deflections and deliberate misrepresentations.

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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5907 on: June 30, 2020, 12:39:12 pm »

That's nice to hear.  I'm glad you enjoy visiting my country.  I enjoyed visiting Canada too.  See?  We can say nice things about each other.

OK, now, about that NYT article...
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5908 on: June 30, 2020, 12:43:33 pm »

OK, now, about that NYT article...
Forget the NYT.  It's more fun hugging each other. :)

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5909 on: June 30, 2020, 01:23:56 pm »


If American health care were its own country, it would be the fourth largest in the world by gross domestic product. The nation spends an average of $3.5 trillion per year on health care — more than Japan, Germany, France, China, the United Kingdom, Italy, Canada, Brazil, Spain and Australia combined — and still loses more people to preventable and treatable medical conditions than any of those countries do.

I don't think it makes much sense to compare the Canadian and American health systems, because they're so different, but I think the US gets unfairly slagged for poor health care. One reason American health care looks bad when compared to other nations is that we have more immigrants from desperately poor countries who never had health care before they arrived here. We have almost 11 million illegal immigrants, mostly from Mexico and Central America. (Those countries all technically have national health insurance, but I know from personal experience that Mexico's health care is largely a fiction, outside the elite care system.) And, despite rumors in other countries to the contrary, if somebody is seriously ill here, they will get health care, whether or not they have insurance. If you show up sick at a hospital ER, you will get help (although some private hospitals will shuffle you off to the local public hospital to get it; though if you die on the way, that private hospital may lose* a bundle in a lawsuit.) The Pew research center says we have 45 million foreign born folks living here. Most of them were relatively poor when they arrived -- poor in their nation of origin, and poor here, and poverty equates to ill health. Canada actually has a higher percentage of foreign-born people but they tend to come from more advance countries in southeast Asia, and also tend to have better educations and higher-status professions. And, there are only about 7.5 million in total -- less than the number of illegal residents in the US.

I personally prefer the American system, but then, I'm affluent. If I weren't, then I'd prefer Canada's, which is much like American Medicare.
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kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5910 on: June 30, 2020, 01:38:01 pm »

I don't think it makes much sense to compare the Canadian and American health systems, because they're so different, but I think the US gets unfairly slagged for poor health care. One reason American health care looks bad when compared to other nations is that we have more immigrants from desperately poor countries who never had health care before they arrived here. We have almost 11 million illegal immigrants, mostly from Mexico and Central America. (Those countries all technically have national health insurance, but I know from personal experience that Mexico's health care is largely a fiction, outside the elite care system.) And, despite rumors in other countries to the contrary, if somebody is seriously ill here, they will get health care, whether or not they have insurance. If you show up sick at a hospital ER, you will get help (although some private hospitals will shuffle you off to the local public hospital to get it; though if you die on the way, that private hospital may lose* a bundle in a lawsuit.) The Pew research center says we have 45 million foreign born folks living here. Most of them were relatively poor when they arrived -- poor in their nation of origin, and poor here, and poverty equates to ill health. Canada actually has a higher percentage of foreign-born people but they tend to come from more advance countries in southeast Asia, and also tend to have better educations and higher-status professions. And, there are only about 7.5 million in total -- less than the number of illegal residents in the US.

I personally prefer the American system, but then, I'm affluent. If I weren't, then I'd prefer Canada's, which is much like American Medicare.
The large amount of people with obesitas in the US might be an other reason for the high healthcare costs.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5911 on: June 30, 2020, 01:44:48 pm »

One reason American health care looks bad when compared to other nations is that we have more immigrants from desperately poor countries who never had health care before they arrived here.

Blaming immigrants for the American healthcare failings is meaningless unless you have proof that they're the root cause of the dysfunction.  It reads well on an Internet forum, but, like many things here, it ain't necessarily true.


Quote
I personally prefer the American system, but then, I'm affluent. If I weren't, then I'd prefer Canada's, which is much like American Medicare.



I have experienced American health care.  My wife dislocated her shoulder and we presented ourselves at the emergency department of a hospital in the Pacific Northwest.  She received excellent care.  It was the middle of the night and there were zero other patients present.  We were fortunate that the head of orthopedic surgery was on duty and he realigned her shoulder quickly and professionally.

Two hours she was discharged, to the tune of $10K.  Yup, ten thousand dollars.  One line item was for a cloth sling that billed out at $150.  Extortionate is the only word I can use to describe the cost of that event.

Driving through America, I'm astounded at the sight of billboards advertising hospitals.  Really?  Is this an good way to spend healthcare dollars?  On advertising?

What is your experience of the Canadian health care system?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 05:09:42 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5912 on: June 30, 2020, 01:54:35 pm »

I don't think it makes much sense to compare the Canadian and American health systems, because they're so different, but I think the US gets unfairly slagged for poor health care. One reason American health care looks bad when compared to other nations is that we have more immigrants from desperately poor countries who never had health care before they arrived here. We have almost 11 million illegal immigrants, mostly from Mexico and Central America. (Those countries all technically have national health insurance, but I know from personal experience that Mexico's health care is largely a fiction, outside the elite care system.) And, despite rumors in other countries to the contrary, if somebody is seriously ill here, they will get health care, whether or not they have insurance. If you show up sick at a hospital ER, you will get help (although some private hospitals will shuffle you off to the local public hospital to get it; though if you die on the way, that private hospital may lose* a bundle in a lawsuit.) The Pew research center says we have 45 million foreign born folks living here. Most of them were relatively poor when they arrived -- poor in their nation of origin, and poor here, and poverty equates to ill health. Canada actually has a higher percentage of foreign-born people but they tend to come from more advance countries in southeast Asia, and also tend to have better educations and higher-status professions. And, there are only about 7.5 million in total -- less than the number of illegal residents in the US.

I personally prefer the American system, but then, I'm affluent. If I weren't, then I'd prefer Canada's, which is much like American Medicare.
America also has a huge underclass of citizens who don't care for themselves as well or live in rural areas far from urban centers where the best doctors and hospitals are located.  These reflect in higher sickness and death rates overall for the country's averages. 

Medicare is OK.  But many of the best doctors have opted out.  So unless you can afford to pay them their full rate in cash, you have to use the less qualified doctors.  Medicare also charges an annual fee even for people who are retired and on Medicare that increases as your income goes up.  So it's not really free even for those who get it.  Frankly, the country is broke.  I don't know how we're going to pay for medicine in the future.

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5913 on: June 30, 2020, 02:14:09 pm »

Blaming immigrants for the American healthcare failings is meaningless unless you have proof that they're the root cause of the dysfunction.  It reads well on an Internet forum, but, like many things here, it ain't necessarily true.




I've not experienced American Medicare, but I have experienced American health care.  My wife dislocated her shoulder and we presented ourselves at the emergency department of a hospital in the Pacific Northwest.  She received excellent care.  It was the middle of the night and there were zero other patients present.  We were fortunate that the head of orthopedic surgery was on duty and he realigned her shoulder quickly and professionally.

Two hours she was discharged, to the tune of $10K.  Yup, ten thousand dollars.  One line item was for a cloth sling that billed out at $150.  Extortionate is the only word I can use to describe the cost of that event.

Driving through America, I'm astounded at the sight of billboards advertising hospitals.  Really?  Is this an good way to spend healthcare dollars?  On advertising?

What is your experience of the Canadian health care system?
I'm sorry your wife hurt herself and I hope your she's doing well.  But regarding the cost, someone has to pay for my "free" medical care.  Since they don't get enough from patients like me who are on Government Medicare with low payments to the hospitals and doctors, they have to offset their loses by charging others more. 

Of course, you have to look at what other things cost in your country.  America doesn;t have a VAT tax.  So a Nikon here costing $1000 costs $1400 there.  Plus everything else costs more in your country because of VATs and higher taxes of all kinds.  So in the end you're paying a lot for medicine.  It's just that you don't see it as directly as when you get a doctor's bill.  You've already paid for it.  The fact is, your government is pulling a bait and switch.  They tell you how free medical care is.  Then they make up for their losses by adding high taxes for your cameras. 

The reason you don't see advertising in other countries is because there's no competition.  No one cares about competing with others.  It doesn't matter.  In Britain it all belongs to the government anyway.

Health care is like any other service or product.  The more competition you have, the better it is for the buyer.  If you want patients to come to your hospital, you have to do better than others.  That forces doctors and hospitals to compete and to try harder.  Patients get better service.  What do you think would happen if Canon was the only camera manufacturer?  Do you think they'd keep improving the equipment and lenses?  Lack of competition reduces quality whether it's with cameras or health care. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5914 on: June 30, 2020, 05:12:02 pm »

I give up.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5915 on: June 30, 2020, 05:12:49 pm »

Does anyone remember the Chatty Cathy doll from the 1960s? You pulled a string on her back and she said one of a dozen or so phrases. It was fun the first couple of times, but it got old after a while hearing her say the same thing over and over and over again. Eventually you stopped pulling her string.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5916 on: June 30, 2020, 05:14:41 pm »

Does anyone remember the Chatty Cathy doll from the 1960s? You pulled a string on her back and she said one of a dozen or so phrases. It was fun the first couple of times, but it got old after a while hearing her say the same thing over and over and over again. Eventually you stopped pulling her string.

Yup.  I remember her.  Thanks for the recollection.
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Chris Kern

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5917 on: June 30, 2020, 06:04:40 pm »

Does anyone remember the Chatty Cathy doll from the 1960s? You pulled a string on her back and she said one of a dozen or so phrases. It was fun the first couple of times, but it got old after a while hearing her say the same thing over and over and over again. Eventually you stopped pulling her string.

Spot on!

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5918 on: June 30, 2020, 06:38:34 pm »

Does anyone remember the Chatty Cathy doll from the 1960s? You pulled a string on her back and she said one of a dozen or so phrases. It was fun the first couple of times, but it got old after a while hearing her say the same thing over and over and over again. Eventually you stopped pulling her string.
You must have run out of cogent arguments when you have  to resort to ad hominem attacks. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5919 on: June 30, 2020, 08:31:19 pm »

You must have run out of cogent arguments when you have  to resort to ad hominem attacks.

Alan, it's not an ad hominem.  It's not about YOU, it's about what you say.
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