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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86648 times)

PeterAit

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #600 on: April 11, 2020, 10:58:08 am »

As if we needed more bad news. It seems the federal government's covid-19 death count is omitting the many many deaths that occurred in nursing homes. Not intentionally, AFAIK, just due to a lack of reporting. And, NY City's death count includes only those who died in hospitals, yet emergency workers report removing "hundreds" of bodies from homes every day.
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #601 on: April 11, 2020, 11:20:20 am »

As if we needed more bad news. It seems the federal government's covid-19 death count is omitting the many many deaths that occurred in nursing homes. Not intentionally, AFAIK, just due to a lack of reporting. And, NY City's death count includes only those who died in hospitals, yet emergency workers report removing "hundreds" of bodies from homes every day.

We'll never know the true counts...other than its quite a bit higher than the official counts.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #602 on: April 11, 2020, 11:28:20 am »

We'll never know the true counts...other than its quite a bit higher than the official counts.

Yea, the hospitals are being paid by the government for covid19 cases.  So if someone dies of heart failure and they can say they had the virus, its a Covid 19 case and they get paid.  Brix said just the other day they are being quite liberal in what they call covid 19 deaths.  So yea the numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt , on both sides of the figures.
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #603 on: April 11, 2020, 11:36:04 am »

Yea, the hospitals are being paid by the government for covid19 cases.  So if someone dies of heart failure and they can say they had the virus, its a Covid 19 case and they get paid.  Brix said just the other day they are being quite liberal in what they call covid 19 deaths.  So yea the numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt , on both sides of the figures.

You think so? I've seen enough medical resources say otherwise...they are totally swamped with Covid deaths. These medical personnel surely must know.

If you want to think the actual numbers are less than being reported, I guess you can...but I don't live in your rose coloured glass world. My thinking is we have way more cases of Covid caused deaths than what is reported. I highly doubt a person that dies out of the hospital would be tested for Covid given we still have a lack of testing going on on live people.

And yes, there will be deaths as a result of Covid overrunning the medical system from things like heart attacks which Covid has indirectly contributed to which are also not counted.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #604 on: April 11, 2020, 11:49:24 am »

You think so? I've seen enough medical resources say otherwise...they are totally swamped with Covid deaths. These medical personnel surely must know.

If you want to think the actual numbers are less than being reported, I guess you can...but I don't live in your rose coloured glass world. My thinking is we have way more cases of Covid caused deaths than what is reported. I highly doubt a person that dies out of the hospital would be tested for Covid given we still have a lack of testing going on on live people.

And yes, there will be deaths as a result of Covid overrunning the medical system from things like heart attacks which Covid has indirectly contributed to which are also not counted.

My point was, which seem to whoosh right over your head, is that the numbers can be suspect on both sides.  The hospitals do have a financial incentive in listing a death as Covid 19. 
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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #605 on: April 11, 2020, 01:03:09 pm »

My point was, which seem to whoosh right over your head, is that the numbers can be suspect on both sides.  The hospitals do have a financial incentive in listing a death as Covid 19.
I am sure that is true for uninsured patients. I don't know whether private insurance or Medicare would pay more for treatment of the actual cause of death than COVID-19 reimbursment. Probably depends.
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #606 on: April 11, 2020, 01:17:21 pm »

My point was, which seem to whoosh right over your head, is that the numbers can be suspect on both sides.  The hospitals do have a financial incentive in listing a death as Covid 19.

Seems like you just have a hard time being civil...enough of your whoosh bullshit.

Here are a couple statements that point towards under recording of actual Covid deaths.

"According to Levine, the number of deaths at home in New York City has grown 10-fold since the end of last week, even as hospitalizations for trauma and other emergencies have dropped to nearly nothing.

"Normally we have 20 to 25 deaths at home and now we are at 200 to 215,” Levine said, explaining that coronavirus would likely be the only way to explain such a spike.

Mayor Bill de Blasio said Tuesday he assumed the “vast majority” of the recent at-home deaths are coronavirus-related."


And in Italy

"In Nembro the almost deserted streets, the absent traffic, a strange silence is sometimes interrupted by the siren of an ambulance that carries with it the anxiety and worry that fill the hearts of all in these weeks. In Nembro every member of the community continuously receives news that he never wanted to hear, every day we lose people who were part of our lives and our community. Nembro, in the province of Bergamo, is the municipality most affected by Covid-19 in relation to the population. We do not know exactly how many people have been infected, but we know that the number of deaths officially attributed to Covid-19 is 31. We are two physicists: one who became an entrepreneur in the health sector, the other a mayor, in close contact with a very cohesive territory, where we know each other very well. We noticed that something in these official numbers did not come back right, and we decided - together - to check. We looked at the average of the deaths in the municipality of previous years, in the period January - March. Nembro should have had - under normal conditions - about 35 deaths. 158 people were registered dead this year by the municipal offices. That is 123 more than the average. Not 31 more, as it should have been according to the official numbers of the coronavirus epidemic."

Any actual data that backs up your view of the corrupt medical system forging Covid-19'deaths for money?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #607 on: April 11, 2020, 01:43:29 pm »

Seems like you just have a hard time being civil...enough of your whoosh bullshit.

Here are a couple statements that point towards under recording of actual Covid deaths.

"According to Levine, the number of deaths at home in New York City has grown 10-fold since the end of last week, even as hospitalizations for trauma and other emergencies have dropped to nearly nothing.

"Normally we have 20 to 25 deaths at home and now we are at 200 to 215,” Levine said, explaining that coronavirus would likely be the only way to explain such a spike.

Mayor Bill de Blasio said Tuesday he assumed the “vast majority” of the recent at-home deaths are coronavirus-related."


And in Italy

"In Nembro the almost deserted streets, the absent traffic, a strange silence is sometimes interrupted by the siren of an ambulance that carries with it the anxiety and worry that fill the hearts of all in these weeks. In Nembro every member of the community continuously receives news that he never wanted to hear, every day we lose people who were part of our lives and our community. Nembro, in the province of Bergamo, is the municipality most affected by Covid-19 in relation to the population. We do not know exactly how many people have been infected, but we know that the number of deaths officially attributed to Covid-19 is 31. We are two physicists: one who became an entrepreneur in the health sector, the other a mayor, in close contact with a very cohesive territory, where we know each other very well. We noticed that something in these official numbers did not come back right, and we decided - together - to check. We looked at the average of the deaths in the municipality of previous years, in the period January - March. Nembro should have had - under normal conditions - about 35 deaths. 158 people were registered dead this year by the municipal offices. That is 123 more than the average. Not 31 more, as it should have been according to the official numbers of the coronavirus epidemic."

Any actual data that backs up your view of the corrupt medical system forging Covid-19'deaths for money?


And it seems you have a hard time understanding simple statements.

So lets look at the statements that pertain to your original claim, in the US.

The quotes you posted say nothing about these at home deaths being not labled as Covid 19. regardless of where you die you stiil need a death cert and a cause of death. also the claim is that the only reason more peolpe dies at home may be due to the virus.  Clearly that can be true, but it is also true that do to the restrictions on people being outside the home...well more people are at home. 

Now CDC has quidelines that state you can list Covid 19 as a cause of death if you suspect they died with symtoms that are consistant with covid 19.

So, some hospital has an uninsured patient that dies.  Without covid 19 as a cause of death they eat the cost of caring for that patient.  But if you list Covid 19 as a cause of death even if the patient has not been tested but shows symtoms of of Covid 19, and you assume they have it, you get paid by the Goverment.

I'm not saying its forgery, heck the goverment issued guidlines on how to do it.  But there is a financal incentive never the less.

“If COVID–19 played a role in the death, this condition should be specified on the death certificate. In many cases, it is likely that it will be the [underlying cause of death], as it can lead to various life-threatening conditions, such as pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS),” the guidance says. “In these cases, COVID-19 should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I with the other conditions to which it gave rise listed on the lines above it.”

The CDC advises that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definitive diagnosis cannot be made … but it is suspected or likely … it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”


There was renewed attention given to the theory of the death toll being inflated after Dr. Deborah Birx, coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, said during an April 7 press conference that “if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.”
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #608 on: April 11, 2020, 01:56:21 pm »


And it seems you have a hard time understanding simple statements.

So lets look at the statements that pertain to your original claim, in the US.

The quotes you posted say nothing about these at home deaths being not labled as Covid 19. regardless of where you die you stiil need a death cert and a cause of death. also the claim is that the only reason more peolpe dies at home may be due to the virus.  Clearly that can be true, but it is also true that do to the restrictions on people being outside the home...well more people are at home. 

Now CDC has quidelines that state you can list Covid 19 as a cause of death if you suspect they died with symtoms that are consistant with covid 19.

So, some hospital has an uninsured patient that dies.  Without covid 19 as a cause of death they eat the cost of caring for that patient.  But if you list Covid 19 as a cause of death even if the patient has not been tested but shows symtoms of of Covid 19, and you assume they have it, you get paid by the Goverment.

I'm not saying its forgery, heck the goverment issued guidlines on how to do it.  But there is a financal incentive never the less.

“If COVID–19 played a role in the death, this condition should be specified on the death certificate. In many cases, it is likely that it will be the [underlying cause of death], as it can lead to various life-threatening conditions, such as pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS),” the guidance says. “In these cases, COVID-19 should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I with the other conditions to which it gave rise listed on the lines above it.”

The CDC advises that officials should report deaths in which the patient tested positive for COVID-19 — or, if a test isn’t available, “if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” It further indicates that if a “definitive diagnosis cannot be made … but it is suspected or likely … it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.'”


There was renewed attention given to the theory of the death toll being inflated after Dr. Deborah Birx, coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, said during an April 7 press conference that “if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.”

Still being an ass I see. Well here is the title of the article...hope that clears things up.

Coronavirus death toll in US likely worse than numbers say

They are not testing corpses brought in for Covid-19...so all these deaths away from the hospital are not tallied.

And how many of these deaths by other reason with Covid-19 infection can be attributed to the medical system so overrun dealing with Covid-19 that the person coming in with a heart attack just didn't have the care to save their life. Now should we count that as a Covid-19 caused death.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 02:00:33 pm by chez »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #610 on: April 11, 2020, 03:34:58 pm »

Still being an ass I see. Well here is the title of the article...hope that clears things up.

Coronavirus death toll in US likely worse than numbers say

They are not testing corpses brought in for Covid-19...so all these deaths away from the hospital are not tallied.

And how many of these deaths by other reason with Covid-19 infection can be attributed to the medical system so overrun dealing with Covid-19 that the person coming in with a heart attack just didn't have the care to save their life. Now should we count that as a Covid-19 caused death.

I see you are still being obtuse.

Did the fact as I point out eariler that you dont need to be tested to have covid 19 listed as a cause of death, somehow escape you?

If you want to play dueling news story headlines we can do that if you choose, but its pretty pointless.  Your headline has one very important modifer...the word "likely"...which means the story nor the headline can be proven.  Its opinion.  Now there is nothing generally wrong with opinion.  But lets call it what it is.



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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #611 on: April 11, 2020, 03:37:19 pm »

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/

Yes...again the money quote away from the salacious headline:

"The repeatedly shared posts — citing the user’s purported recollection of a woman’s claim on a “live broadcast” — argue that “the state” has instructed “that anyone who didnt die by a gun shot wound or car accident” should be “listed as covid 19 victims.” It claims “the numbers are a lie” and calls for an investigation."

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elliot_n

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #612 on: April 11, 2020, 03:50:04 pm »

And the next sentence:

"We attempted to contact the user responsible for the original post, to no avail, so we don’t know what “state” was being referenced. But there’s no evidence that any state has adopted a policy to classify all deaths, regardless of the individual circumstances, as being related to COVID-19."
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #613 on: April 11, 2020, 03:53:09 pm »

I see you are still being obtuse.

Did the fact as I point out eariler that you dont need to be tested to have covid 19 listed as a cause of death, somehow escape you?

If you want to play dueling news story headlines we can do that if you choose, but its pretty pointless.  Your headline has one very important modifer...the word "likely"...which means the story nor the headline can be proven.  Its opinion.  Now there is nothing generally wrong with opinion.  But lets call it what it is.

What about the facts of the huge spikes of home deaths in both New York and Italy over the averages from previous years. What do you believe caused these massive spikes? None of which are labeled Covid-19.

Yes, let's call it what it is.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #614 on: April 11, 2020, 03:54:40 pm »

And the next sentence:

"We attempted to contact the user responsible for the original post, to no avail, so we don’t know what “state” was being referenced. But there’s no evidence that any state has adopted a policy to classify all deaths, regardless of the individual circumstances, as being related to COVID-19."

Again a VERY inportant modifier in the above quote...no one in this thread ever suggested any such thing. Which makes the entire article and the resulting quote irrelevant
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #615 on: April 11, 2020, 03:58:20 pm »

And the next sentence:

"We attempted to contact the user responsible for the original post, to no avail, so we don’t know what “state” was being referenced. But there’s no evidence that any state has adopted a policy to classify all deaths, regardless of the individual circumstances, as being related to COVID-19."

Yes valid information that totally puts the entire post in question. Lots of crazy conspiracy people running around throwing out garbage...and just as many eating it all up.

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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #616 on: April 11, 2020, 03:59:48 pm »

Factcheck.org must be desperate for something to do to comment on an absurd suggestion appearing on social media of all places “that anyone who didnt die by a gun shot wound or car accident” should be “listed as covid 19 victims.” Was their no White House briefing today?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #617 on: April 11, 2020, 04:00:40 pm »

What about the facts of the huge spikes of home deaths in both New York and Italy over the averages from previous years. What do you believe caused these massive spikes? None of which are labeled Covid-19.

Yes, let's call it what it is.

If you have evidence that NO home deaths in New York have been listed as Covid 19, please post that evidence.  If its just your opinion clearly state it is just that.  My opinion is some of these at home deaths are occuring because people are stuck at home now.  As for Italy, that not my concern right now. 

Now I point you to this passage from the CDC guidlines for death certs in the time of covid 19.  Notice the circumstances of the fictional death.


Scenario III: An 86-year-old female with an
unconfirmed case of COVID–19
An 86-year-old female passed away at home. Her husband
reported that she was nonambulatory after suffering an ischemic
stroke 3 years ago. He stated that 5 days prior, she developed a
high fever and severe cough after being exposed to an ill family
member who subsequently was diagnosed with COVID–19.
Despite his urging, she refused to go to the hospital, even when
her breathing became more labored and temperature escalated.
She was unresponsive that morning and her husband phoned
emergency medical services (EMS). Upon EMS arrival, the
patient was pulseless and apneic. Her husband stated that he
and his wife had advanced directives and that she was not to be
resuscitated. After consulting with medical command, she was
pronounced dead and the coroner was notified.
Comment: Although no testing was done, the coroner
determined that the likely UCOD was COVID–19 given the
patient’s symptoms and exposure to an infected individual.
Therefore, COVID–19 was reported on the lowest line used
in Part I. Her ischemic stroke was considered a factor that
contributed to her death but was not a part of the direct causal
sequence in Part I, so it was reported in Part II
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #618 on: April 11, 2020, 04:08:57 pm »

If you have evidence that NO home deaths in New York have been listed as Covid 19, please post that evidence.  If its just your opinion clearly state it is just that.  My opinion is some of these at home deaths are occuring because people are stuck at home now.  As for Italy, that not my concern right now. 

Now I point you to this passage from the CDC guidlines for death certs in the time of covid 19.  Notice the circumstances of the fictional death.


Scenario III: An 86-year-old female with an
unconfirmed case of COVID–19
An 86-year-old female passed away at home. Her husband
reported that she was nonambulatory after suffering an ischemic
stroke 3 years ago. He stated that 5 days prior, she developed a
high fever and severe cough after being exposed to an ill family
member who subsequently was diagnosed with COVID–19.
Despite his urging, she refused to go to the hospital, even when
her breathing became more labored and temperature escalated.
She was unresponsive that morning and her husband phoned
emergency medical services (EMS). Upon EMS arrival, the
patient was pulseless and apneic. Her husband stated that he
and his wife had advanced directives and that she was not to be
resuscitated. After consulting with medical command, she was
pronounced dead and the coroner was notified.
Comment: Although no testing was done, the coroner
determined that the likely UCOD was COVID–19 given the
patient’s symptoms and exposure to an infected individual.
Therefore, COVID–19 was reported on the lowest line used
in Part I. Her ischemic stroke was considered a factor that
contributed to her death but was not a part of the direct causal
sequence in Part I, so it was reported in Part II


Craig you appear to be a smart guy that is just pigheaded. Do you really believe the big spikes of home deaths are all caused by other factors and have been tallied as Civid-19 deaths. The case you pointed out is a very good assumption given how infectious Covid is and the symptoms the person had...but do you really think all those cases go through such a diagnoses when there are stacks of corpses already in line.

I highly doubt it...and so does the CDC which fear the under tally to be quite large.

But believe what you like...I know there is no changing your mind.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #619 on: April 11, 2020, 04:20:01 pm »

Craig you appear to be a smart guy that is just pigheaded. Do you really believe the big spikes of home deaths are all caused by other factors and have been tallied as Civid-19 deaths. The case you pointed out is a very good assumption given how infectious Covid is and the symptoms the person had...but do you really think all those cases go through such a diagnoses when there are stacks of corpses already in line.

I highly doubt it...and so does the CDC which fear the under tally to be quite large.

But believe what you like...I know there is no changing your mind.

Are you even reading the words I'm writing or are you just in denial?

I said I believe SOME might be caused by other factors.  Notice the word SOME.  I even underlined called it out in my post.

Someone MUST fill out a death cert for everyone who dies in the U.S.  Thats a Federal law. So are you suggestiing they are just making something up?

And my other point, which I made twice, is that the numbers on both sides...over  and under reporting... might be suspect and we should take them with a grain of salt.

Why should my mind be changed?

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