COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS

[Alan Klein]

Today's news show 500 billion Euros to help.  But German and other countries are refusing to pay for bonds like I said in a previous post. They're going to issue bonds, termed corona bonds.  A perfect name that will mean the end of the EU currency.  "German Chancellor Angela Merkel, backed by the leaders of Austria and the Netherlands, have said no. They have long opposed the issuance of debt at the EU level for fear that it would effectively mean their taxpayers are underwriting spending by poorer member states."  Well, Germans aren;t Italians even if they're all Europeans. 

""A perceived lack of solidarity in the worst peacetime crisis in living memory could be dynamite for the longer-term cohesion of the eurozone and the European Union," they wrote after the deal was announced."

Of course, America won't be helping because we'll be in our own recession and not buying as many European products.  Heck, we're still looking for toilet paper. What a mess.

"Europe has a rescue package. But who's going to pay for its coronavirus recovery?"
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/business/europe-coronavirus-stimulus/index.html

Bart, why are you saying "no"?  I thought you were for the European Union?

[chez]

Well, good dribblers have more value to the team than do mosts scientists have to their companies.  They earn more money for it.  How much money would you pay the dribbler if he quit his job and went to work for Pfizer as a scientist?

Oh I don't know about that. Scientist create new drugs that make billions for their companies. Scientists design new cars that make billions for their companies. Architects design new building that make billions for their companies.

I personally think sports figures are way over paid and to make up for this overpayment, you and I need to shell out big bucks just to watch a game.

[Alan Klein]

Oh I don't know about that. Scientist create new drugs that make billions for their companies. Scientists design new cars that make billions for their companies. Architects design new building that make billions for their companies.

I personally think sports figures are way over paid and to make up for this overpayment, you and I need to shell out big bucks just to watch a game.

Only top scientists and top architects.  And they are rewarded over other scientists and architects just like the better dribblers are.  If a scientist doesn't like his pay, let him practice dribbling.   

Only an employer can know what a employee is worth to him.  If they paid all their 1000 scientist as much as  the best dribblers, they'd be out of business in a week since they could charge enough to offset their salaries. Also, the scientist doesn't have to take the job if he feels he's worth more. No one is twisting his arm.  There's no way for you or the government to know what a person is worth in dollars.  It's not a moral decision. It's based solely on economic value after all you're talking about salary, which is money.  In any case, the free market decides.  In Cuba, doctors make about $30 a day as decided by the government.  Do you think that is fair?

[John Camp]

Oh I don't know about that. Scientist create new drugs that make billions for their companies. Scientists design new cars that make billions for their companies. Architects design new building that make billions for their companies.

I personally think sports figures are way over paid and to make up for this overpayment, you and I need to shell out big bucks just to watch a game.

Why are they overpaid? Would you be happy if your income was artificially reduced by some kind of government fiat so the people could get your services more cheaply? Sports figures sell tickets. Tickets generate cash. At one time, almost all the cash went to the billionaires ho owned the teams, but then sports unions were formed, and the players started to get serious money. Sports figures are simply entertainers, like movie stars, and they sell tickets. If you don't want to buy a ticket, you don't have to. It's no different than money generated by movie stars, whose basic function is to sell tickets.

This argument is most often heard about teachers -- but the fact is teaching is probably the easiest of the professions to get into, and requires the least amount of training (aside, perhaps, from the ministry.) (And understand that I'm distinguishing between professions and trades.) But why shouldn't a great teacher be paid as much as a great basketball player? Because the teacher isn't selling tickets, and had chosen to join a low-risk, good-reward profession.

I say jocks, and artists, and entrepreneurs should be able to get what the market will pay them. And if the market won't pay them anything, well, tough shit.

[Robert Roaldi]

Why are they overpaid? Would you be happy if your income was artificially reduced by some kind of government fiat so the people could get your services more cheaply? Sports figures sell tickets. Tickets generate cash. At one time, almost all the cash went to the billionaires ho owned the teams, but then sports unions were formed, and the players started to get serious money. Sports figures are simply entertainers, like movie stars, and they sell tickets. If you don't want to buy a ticket, you don't have to. It's no different than money generated by movie stars, whose basic function is to sell tickets.

This argument is most often heard about teachers -- but the fact is teaching is probably the easiest of the professions to get into, and requires the least amount of training (aside, perhaps, from the ministry.) (And understand that I'm distinguishing between professions and trades.) But why shouldn't a great teacher be paid as much as a great basketball player? Because the teacher isn't selling tickets, and had chosen to join a low-risk, good-reward profession.

I say jocks, and artists, and entrepreneurs should be able to get what the market will pay them. And if the market won't pay them anything, well, tough shit.

I'm kind of sorry that I brought this up by making that offhand comment earlier. I don't have anything against artists, sports figures, etc. raking it in. The money is there, why shouldn't they get a piece of the action. My wife is an artist and I think artists should make a lot more than they do. My original comment was only to bemoan the fact that our culture seems to value things inappropriately, but there's no big spreadsheet in the sky with all the correct formulas in it.

[Alan Klein]

I'm kind of sorry that I brought this up by making that offhand comment earlier. I don't have anything against artists, sports figures, etc. raking it in. The money is there, why shouldn't they get a piece of the action. My wife is an artist and I think artists should make a lot more than they do. My original comment was only to bemoan the fact that our culture seems to value things inappropriately, but there's no big spreadsheet in the sky with all the correct formulas in it.

The issue is what do you mean by value?  The moment you put a price on it from either the payer's or the receiver's side, it becomes an economic value.  Economic value is not equated with moral or ethical value.  The two are different. Things of spiritual, moral and ethical value cannot be bought.  They have no monetary value.  Only services and products are bought and sold.  Their economic values are determined by the market.

Also, who could determine which has greater value even from the standpoint of the market?  Does a scientist working for 3M developing new glues have more value than a billionaire like Bloomberg who's developed a business that gives jobs to tens of thousands of people and help put food on the table for thousands more? Does a ball player who entertains millions of people and lifts their spirits during a virus outbreak deserve less than a teacher who instructs 100 children during a year?  God gave everyone value.  Who are we to decide that one person is more valuable than another when God loves us all and see us equally in His eyes?

[John Camp]

I'm kind of sorry that I brought this up by making that offhand comment earlier. I don't have anything against artists, sports figures, etc. raking it in. The money is there, why shouldn't they get a piece of the action. My wife is an artist and I think artists should make a lot more than they do. My original comment was only to bemoan the fact that our culture seems to value things inappropriately, but there's no big spreadsheet in the sky with all the correct formulas in it.

Don't regret it, it's an interesting discussion compared to some of the bullshit posted on this thread. In any case, I don't see why paying millions to sports figures is an inappropriate value, because I think "inappropriate" would basically apply to cheating or criminal activity. The Trump family tax cheating, for example, on which Trump's fortune is based. Totally inappropriate, and probably criminal, although the statute of limitations has run out on the criminal side. A great athlete, on the other hand, has probably spent thousands of hours honing his talent, to do that one thing, and people will pay money to see him do it. Fine with me, nobody is holding a gun to the ticket-buyers' head, and I don't spend more than about two hours a year watching sports and if pressed, couldn't name a single current baseball player. The only reason I know who Steph Curry is, I was watching a TV in a sidewalk Indian restaurant in LA and the sportscasters kept talking about "Curry," and I thought, "Hey, I'm eating some, and it's quite good." As far as artists are concerned, I think most of them make about what their art's worth, until you get fairly high up, when it becomes a con game used to separate philistines from their ill-gotten gains, which seems mildly funny to me, but not totally inappropriate. Besides, if Alan knows what he's talking about, and I'm uncertain about that, all that cash is going to turn into toilet paper anyway. God knows we need the toilet paper.

[chez]

The issue is what do you mean by value?  The moment you put a price on it from either the payer's or the receiver's side, it becomes an economic value.  Economic value is not equated with moral or ethical value.  The two are different. Things of spiritual, moral and ethical value cannot be bought.  They have no monetary value.  Only services and products are bought and sold.  Their economic values are determined by the market.

Also, who could determine which has greater value even from the standpoint of the market?  Does a scientist working for 3M developing new glues have more value than a billionaire like Bloomberg who's developed a business that gives jobs to tens of thousands of people and help put food on the table for thousands more? Does a ball player who entertains millions of people and lifts their spirits during a virus outbreak deserve less than a teacher who instructs 100 children during a year?  God gave everyone value.  Who are we to decide that one person is more valuable than another when God loves us all and see us equally in His eyes?

I can tell you this much...when you are in emergency being kept alive by drugs developed by that scientist...the last thing of value on your mind will be that baseball player that strikes out way more often than hits a home run...but still manages to pull in $10m a year...plus another $50m / year advertising some made in China runners.

[Alan Klein]

I can tell you this much...when you are in emergency being kept alive by drugs developed by that scientist...the last thing of value on your mind will be that baseball player that strikes out way more often than hits a home run...but still manages to pull in $10m a year...plus another $50m / year advertising some made in China runners.

So on my deathbed, I'm going to be thinking how glad I am that the doctor is making more treating me?  Maybe if he was making less I'd feel he was more dedicated to my health than just working to get a big paycheck.  In any case in America, most doctors do pretty well for themselves.  Compare that to Cuba where the government says they're only worth $30 a day.  I'll take the free market. 

[chez]

So on my deathbed, I'm going to be thinking how glad I am that the doctor is making more treating me?  Maybe if he was making less I'd feel he was more dedicated to my health than just working to get a big paycheck.  In any case in America, most doctors do pretty well for themselves.  Compare that to Cuba where the government says they're only worth $30 a day.  I'll take the free market.

I'm not talking about the doctor, I'm talking about the scientist making 60k that developed the drugs keeping you alive.

As far as Cuba goes...have you been there. I judge a countries quality of life by how much joy the people have every day. I've been to Cuba 8 times over the last 10 years, spent plenty of time imbedded with Cuban families and I can tell you, they enjoy life there. Much more so than the people I got to spend time with in the southern USA.

A good friend of mine and coworker has to keep working ( he's 71 now) in order to have his insurance pay for his wife's drugs. The guy needs two knew replacements, barely walks but cannot afford it as the wife's drugs take up all his works insurance.

In Cuba...all that is free for each citizen. Same with education...everyone has post secondary education. Cuba is one of the highest literate nation in the world.

I cut my finger in Cuba and ended up in emergency for stitches. Fast and free...Doctor even apologized for the cut ruining my vacation. Had a tooth cap come off once in Atlanta. Walked into the dentist...first thing they wanted before my name was my credit card.

Alan...there is more to life than money.

[Alan Klein]

I'm not talking about the doctor, I'm talking about the scientist making 60k that developed the drugs keeping you alive.

As far as Cuba goes...have you been there. I judge a countries quality of life by how much joy the people have every day. I've been to Cuba 8 times over the last 10 years, spent plenty of time imbedded with Cuban families and I can tell you, they enjoy life there. Much more so than the people I got to spend time with in the southern USA.

A good friend of mine and coworker has to keep working ( he's 71 now) in order to have his insurance pay for his wife's drugs. The guy needs two knew replacements, barely walks but cannot afford it as the wife's drugs take up all his works insurance.

In Cuba...all that is free for each citizen. Same with education...everyone has post secondary education. Cuba is one of the highest literate nation in the world.

I cut my finger in Cuba and ended up in emergency for stitches. Fast and free...Doctor even apologized for the cut ruining my vacation. Had a tooth cap come off once in Atlanta. Walked into the dentist...first thing they wanted before my name was my credit card.

Alan...there is more to life than money.

What good is literacy when you're not free to read what you want? And if you read what you're not suppose to, the government goons break your legs.  But that's OK because they'll send you to the hospital where they'll stitch you up for free. 

Yes.  There's more to life than money.

[faberryman]

What good is literacy when you're not free to read what you want? And if you read what you're not suppose to, the government goons break your legs.  But that's OK because they'll send you to the hospital where they'll stitch you up for free. 

Yes.  There's more to life than money.

This is the no politics thread.

[Alan Klein]

Too confusing.  Two too many threads. 

[Manoli]

OK, boys - one small light on the horizon:

The Times (UK) reporting that a vaccine against coronavirus could be ready as soon as September.

Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, told The Times she was “80 per cent confident” that the vaccine being developed by her team would work, with human trials due to begin in the next fortnight.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-vaccine-could-be-ready-by-september-flmwl257x

[chez]

What good is literacy when you're not free to read what you want? And if you read what you're not suppose to, the government goons break your legs.  But that's OK because they'll send you to the hospital where they'll stitch you up for free. 

Yes.  There's more to life than money.

Is this your personal experience or the highly influenced USA version? Yeh...totally free to read whatever your government wants you to read.

[John Camp]

A UK scientist at Oxford says her group is beginning human testing of a vaccine that she says she is 80% certain that it will work against the corona virus. I looked her up and she has quite the virus-developing history, and seems very much legit. The UK government has been talking about providing several tens of millions of dollars to begin manufacturing of the vaccine in advance of final trials, so that if it turns out to be safe and effective, it would be available immediately up the end of trials. She says if it works as she believes it will, it could become available in September. I would fly to the UK to get it.

[chez]

A UK scientist at Oxford says her group is beginning human testing of a vaccine that she says she is 80% certain that it will work against the corona virus. I looked her up and she has quite the virus-developing history, and seems very much legit. The UK government has been talking about providing several tens of millions of dollars to begin manufacturing of the vaccine in advance of final trials, so that if it turns out to be safe and effective, it would be available immediately up the end of trials. She says if it works as she believes it will, it could become available in September. I would fly to the UK to get it.

Sorry...no fly zone from us to uk.

[Robert Roaldi]

OTOH, I came across this depressing story out of South Korea about re-infection, or maybe re-lapsed https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/south-korea-coronavirus-covid19-reactivated-positive-1.5529066.

I hope this is testing errors. People are sort of counting on post-infection immunity.

[Alan Klein]

I’m guessing that Alan Goldhammer could post updated info on this.

The Oxford vaccine, known as ChAdOx1, is not the only one at a hopeful stage. There are at least another five frontrunners including two US ones - one researched by Moderna (mRNA-1273), another by Inovio (funded by the Bill Gates’ foundation) and at least two in Germany.

I’m guessing that for her to be 80% confident indicates that its worked on the ferrets and macaques and they’ll soon be testing it on humans. Alan ?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.  Every researcher is coming out with their theory of how they can develop a vaccine.  There's billions of dollars being made available and everyone wants to get their grants.  Here's America's NIH National Institutes of Health emergency programs.
https://grants.nih.gov/policy/natural-disasters/corona-virus.htm

[John Camp]

The Times' story on the Oxford vaccine is behind a paywall. Here's a longer one from the Daily Mail.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8209523/Oxford-expert-Coronavirus-vaccine-ready-September-80-likelihood-work.html

This woman has a really good history, but the main thing is SEPTEMBER. And it won't be no-fly in September, unless we're in the middle of the second wave, which we could be.