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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86508 times)

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #520 on: April 08, 2020, 11:18:32 am »

Yes. How else would you decide things on issues you never experienced before? We all use our other experience in life to help us.  Unless you know a genie you call to get advice.

It was a rhetorical question.

These issues have been experienced before, in multiple times and ways. We had even action plans designed for this kind of disaster. It's just some lacked the vision to look beyond the next step. Some still do.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #521 on: April 08, 2020, 11:50:41 am »

That's new news. It took a long time to sink in with people.  I was referring to what government should have done early one.  It was not as clear back then. Difficult choices did not seem so easy to pick. The CHinese were lying to us about the disease.  We didn't have all the facts yet.  That's what I was referring too.

What governments should have done was listen to the health experts and scientists of this subject, and implement measures sooner. Instead, some governments lost precious days in late Feb and early March going with their business as usual - election campaign in France with gatherings of a few thousand people, or public events in Spain with also gatherings of thousands of people.

UEFA still went on with Champions league matches, and only very reluctantly postponed Euro 2020.

These are just a few examples of what happens when you do not listen to the specialists.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #522 on: April 08, 2020, 12:03:44 pm »

Just hoping going forward history does not repeat. Much rather err on staying locked down longer than opening up too soon and causing another mess.
Curious. What do you do for a living?

chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #523 on: April 08, 2020, 12:06:12 pm »

Curious. What do you do for a living?

Retired. Was a product manager in an industrial automation company.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #524 on: April 08, 2020, 12:06:58 pm »

It was a rhetorical question.

These issues have been experienced before, in multiple times and ways. We had even action plans designed for this kind of disaster. It's just some lacked the vision to look beyond the next step. Some still do.
You made that point numerous times.  What do we do now?

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #525 on: April 08, 2020, 12:09:36 pm »

Retired. Was a product manager in an industrial automation company.
Me too.  Well, if you were working and had to feed a family, you might a different opinion.  By the way, did you work for Siemens? I was in commercials HVAC temperature control automation with Johnson Controls as well as in my own company where I rep'd others. .

chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #526 on: April 08, 2020, 12:14:55 pm »

Me too.  Well, if you were working and had to feed a family, you might a different opinion.  By the way, did you work for Siemens? I was in commercials HVAC temperature control automation with Johnson Controls as well as in my own company where I rep'd others. .

No. I did a lot of work with a company that supplied products for Allen Bradley. My last position was with a company doing sawmill automation which was just amazing.

Don't know if you are familiar with PLC programming, but I managed the product Allen Bradley sells today.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #527 on: April 08, 2020, 12:22:33 pm »

Fine. I've asked about what we should do going forward?  You guys keep wanting to go back to attack Trump.

Going forward:

1. Not all countries are on the same phase of the crisis. Those who were hit early are now slowly reopening and restarting some of their economic activity, namely some Asian countries and some European ones. They will have to implement immunity tests to evaluate who can go back to work or back to school, etc. They will have to monitor the situation very closely and be ready to reinstate quarantine as needed. It is going to be a start/stop process in terms of the public health problem.

2. Countries who are say 4 weeks late relative to China in terms of infection start, and who are now apparently past the peak- Spain, Italy, Austria, and others - will still have to live for weeks with many deaths (Spain, Italy) while slowly reopening. Spain is saying 26 April, Italy soon too. I mentioned Austria because it is a country about the same population of Portugal, and whose epidemic curves are similar. They will reopen slowly in 14 April.

3. Countries that are 8 weeks later than China, like Portugal, France, UK, etc, will reopen late and watch closely what is happening in the meantime in the countries that have opened by then. In Portugal, this slow reopening will probably happen mid-May. Already a lot of public events in the summer have been cancelled. This is good, because our health care service is fragile. Our government listens to specialists in health and economy very closely - there are numerous meetings that involve decision makers, scientists, economists, workers unions, company owners, everybody is working together with a common goal: survive this crisis as best as we can. Example: schools were only closed after measures were in place to pay 2/3 salary to the parents who needed to go home and stay with their kids. We did not want to send the kids home to stay with their grandparents - that was a time bomb in Italy. We could have closed schools 5 days earlier, but then the kids would have no one to take care of them, or would have to stay with their grandparents and risk infecting them.

4. Countries who reacted late regarding public health isolation measures, will have to live with a higher number of deaths - that is well known since 1918.

5. Countries in general will see a rise in unemployment rate and debt. They will tackle that differently.

6. Still going forward, countries need to prepare NOW for the second wave of the infection. The downside of flattening the curve now is that the level of immunity is very low. Some scientists estimate that level to be around 10% in Italy - this is still low compared to the required 60-70% - and that is a country that has suffered a lot. in Portugal, estimate is 0.1%. So of course all countries need to prepare for what will happen in a few months - testing for immunity, restricting movement and air traffic, and monitor very quickly. We have learned a lot by then, already did today, so there is a great opportunity for concerted efforts. For example, in the EU, countries will need to do integrated monitoring of the health situation, and have plans in place should the infection ramp up again in a second wave in counitres A, B, or C  - coordinate border closing, reduce plane travel, etc, as required. These plans will have to include economic incentives and measures to help affected businesses and people.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #528 on: April 08, 2020, 12:29:45 pm »

No. I did a lot of work with a company that supplied products for Allen Bradley. My last position was with a company doing sawmill automation which was just amazing.

Don't know if you are familiar with PLC programming, but I managed the product Allen Bradley sells today.
I guess it's all similar to what I did years ago.  I used Allen Bradley back then for large circuit breaker panels.  I suppose the PLC integrated programmable control of lights and other motors used in industry to A-B's starters.  I did similar things except computer control of HVAC control: dampers, valves, on/off control PID (proportional, integral, derivative) mode of operation, but applied to commercial and institutional buildings and facilities rather than factories and industrial controls. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #529 on: April 08, 2020, 12:34:55 pm »

I guess it's all similar to what I did years ago...

You two, get a room ;)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #530 on: April 08, 2020, 12:39:13 pm »

Going forward:

1. Not all countries are on the same phase of the crisis. Those who were hit early are now slowly reopening and restarting some of their economic activity, namely some Asian countries and some European ones. They will have to implement immunity tests to evaluate who can go back to work or back to school, etc. They will have to monitor the situation very closely and be ready to reinstate quarantine as needed. It is going to be a start/stop process in terms of the public health problem.

2. Countries who are say 4 weeks late relative to China in terms of infection start, and who are now apparently past the peak- Spain, Italy, Austria, and others - will still have to live for weeks with many deaths (Spain, Italy) while slowly reopening. Spain is saying 26 April, Italy soon too. I mentioned Austria because it is a country about the same population of Portugal, and whose epidemic curves are similar. They will reopen slowly in 14 April.

3. Countries that are 8 weeks later than China, like Portugal, France, UK, etc, will reopen late and watch closely what is happening in the meantime in the countries that have opened by then. In Portugal, this slow reopening will probably happen mid-May. Already a lot of public events in the summer have been cancelled. This is good, because our health care service is fragile. Our government listens to specialists in health and economy very closely - there are numerous meetings that involve decision makers, scientists, economists, workers unions, company owners, everybody is working together with a common goal: survive this crisis as best as we can. Example: schools were only closed after measures were in place to pay 2/3 salary to the parents who needed to go home and stay with their kids. We did not want to send the kids home to stay with their grandparents - that was a time bomb in Italy. We could have closed schools 5 days earlier, but then the kids would have no one to take care of them, or would have to stay with their grandparents and risk infecting them.

4. Countries who reacted late regarding public health isolation measures, will have to live with a higher number of deaths - that is well known since 1918.

5. Countries in general will see a rise in unemployment rate and debt. They will tackle that differently.

6. Still going forward, countries need to prepare NOW for the second wave of the infection. The downside of flattening the curve now is that the level of immunity is very low. Some scientists estimate that level to be around 10% in Italy - this is still low compared to the required 60-70% - and that is a country that has suffered a lot. in Portugal, estimate is 0.1%. So of course all countries need to prepare for what will happen in a few months - testing for immunity, restricting movement and air traffic, and monitor very quickly. We have learned a lot by then, already did today, so there is a great opportunity for concerted efforts. For example, in the EU, countries will need to do integrated monitoring of the health situation, and have plans in place should the infection ramp up again in a second wave in counitres A, B, or C  - coordinate border closing, reduce plane travel, etc, as required. These plans will have to include economic incentives and measures to help affected businesses and people.


If there's a second stage, then those that waited may turn out better for them since more of their people have gotten infected.  Herd immunity will be better in those countries. They may recover faster than the early birds.  Don;t assume you have it all figured out.  History has a way of surprising us.  All the, I told you so's, may come back to haunt you.

Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #531 on: April 08, 2020, 12:49:55 pm »

As you know I'm reviewing all the studies that are coming out.  One interesting line of research, and I stress this is all observational, is that countries where there is universal BCG vaccination appear to have fewer cases of SARS-CoV-2. there have been about a dozen papers on this topic. Here is a NY Times story on this topic that is pretty straight forward:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/health/coronavirus-bcg-vaccine.html & Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCG_vaccine  Whether is is just a data curiosity or something meaningful is difficult to assess right now.

Thank you for the link, Alan. 

" But evidence accumulating over the past decade suggests the vaccine also has so-called off-target effects, reducing viral illnesses, respiratory infections and sepsis, and appears to bolster the body’s immune system."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/health/coronavirus-bcg-vaccine.html?auth=login-email&login=email
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #532 on: April 08, 2020, 01:24:08 pm »

See my earlier post #458.

Saw it. It doesn't undermine my point; it demonstrates that killing bacteria in the air around a group of mice reduces the overall pathogenicity of influenza virus. If it had any further application, one might have expected the last >70 years to have thrown it up. So far as I've read, superadded bacterial infection is not required for the coronavirus to be lethal.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #533 on: April 08, 2020, 01:27:17 pm »

Fiberglass in your lungs can cause cancer like asbestos.

There is no evidence for that assertion.

Jeremy
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #534 on: April 08, 2020, 01:59:49 pm »

There is no evidence for that assertion.

Jeremy
I wouldn't breathe fiberglass fibers floating around in the air. But what do I know?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #535 on: April 08, 2020, 02:50:35 pm »

To put things into geographic perspective:

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #536 on: April 08, 2020, 04:08:56 pm »

New York, New Jersey report record coronavirus deaths with many deaths not counted in the stats. Assuming an average of 150 uncounted deaths, this would add 4,500 deaths per month. Just in these 2 states.

Quote
New York Mayor Bill De Blasio estimated an undercount in the death toll of 100 to 200 people per day who are dying at home but excluded from the city’s rapidly growing tally. So far the city’s announced death toll has reflected only COVID-19 diagnoses confirmed in a laboratory.

More than 200 people are dying at home in New York City each day during the pandemic, up from 22 to 32 during the March 20 to April 5 period a year ago, according to city fire officials.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/new-york-new-jersey-report-record-coronavirus-deaths-fear-death-toll-undercounted-idUSKBN21Q204
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #537 on: April 08, 2020, 05:44:31 pm »

New York, New Jersey report record coronavirus deaths with many deaths not counted in the stats. Assuming an average of 150 uncounted deaths, this would add 4,500 deaths per month. Just in these 2 states.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/new-york-new-jersey-report-record-coronavirus-deaths-fear-death-toll-undercounted-idUSKBN21Q204

The same thing is occurring in Italy where people that die at home are not tested and not tallied. Estimates of twice as many people have died from Covid as what is officially tallied. After all, why waste a Covid test on a dead person. I'm sure that same is occurring in many other countries.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #538 on: April 08, 2020, 06:26:38 pm »

New York, New Jersey report record coronavirus deaths with many deaths not counted in the stats. Assuming an average of 150 uncounted deaths, this would add 4,500 deaths per month. Just in these 2 states.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/new-york-new-jersey-report-record-coronavirus-deaths-fear-death-toll-undercounted-idUSKBN21Q204
Fortunately, the predictions seem to be going down on the number of deaths anticipated overall.

DEATH TOLL PROJECTIONS
The University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation model lowered its projected U.S. death toll by 26%, to 60,000 from 80,000 by August 4. The model is one of several that the White House task force has cited.

The task force previously projected 100,000 to 240,000 Americans could die.

The institute also moved up its projected peak in the number to U.S. deaths to this Sunday, when it predicted 2,212 people will succumb to the disease. The revision moves forward the projected peak by four days, suggesting the strain on the country’s healthcare system will lessen sooner than previously expected.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/new-york-new-jersey-report-record-coronavirus-deaths-fear-death-toll-undercounted-idUSKBN21Q204

John Camp

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #539 on: April 08, 2020, 06:33:10 pm »

They may be right, but I no longer trust that model. They change too radically in too short a time. There are several respectable models out there, and this is the one by far on the lowest end.

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