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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86375 times)

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #480 on: April 08, 2020, 08:15:02 am »

A question about masks. The impression I've had is that they are disposable, that they can't be dis-infected. I sort of understand why immersion in dis-infecting liquids could affect the integrity of the fabric, but is there a reason why UV dis-infection wouldn't work?

It depends.

The cotton and similar could easily be washed, but those masks they are not that effective.

Allegedly some surgical masks can be disinfected by boiling for 3 min without significant damage but I have yet to see this confirmed. Probably you could leave them for days without touching them and the virus will die, even sooner if they get some sun.

For N95 they are coming with several options because of the current shortage. CDC said that 30 min at 70 degrees C will be good enough. Some use hydrogen peroxide vapors. Others (and my hospital I think it’s going with this) will use ethylene oxide gas, commonly used for medical devices.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #481 on: April 08, 2020, 08:15:32 am »

There is always someone somewhere, saying something. And then there is always someone saying something different. Someone is always right in retrospect.

There are always someone predicting stock market boom or crash. And then there is always someone saying something different. Some are usually right and some loose their shirts.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #482 on: April 08, 2020, 08:20:50 am »

There was a discussion about how effective really are the HVAC filters, particularly when in an enclosed space, aka planes.
Here's an article I read this morning about various materials that can be incorporated into homemade masks:  https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-homemade-mask-material-DIY-face-mask-ppe.html  Part of the problem with some materials is loose fibers, particularly if they contain fiberglass.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #483 on: April 08, 2020, 08:20:56 am »

A question about masks. The impression I've had is that they are disposable, that they can't be dis-infected. I sort of understand why immersion in dis-infecting liquids could affect the integrity of the fabric, but is there a reason why UV dis-infection wouldn't work?

Chancellor Angela Merkel recommends desinfecting masks in the microwave.

Quote
“Improper use could be even more fatal,” Merkel said when asked if the government would recommend wearing masks. “You need to wash it regularly, avoid wearing it over a long period of time, iron it, or warm it the oven or the microwave.”
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #484 on: April 08, 2020, 08:21:55 am »

Chancellor Angela Merkel recommends desinfecting masks in the microwave.
If there is any elastic in the mask, it could degrade with irradiation.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #485 on: April 08, 2020, 08:24:17 am »

In most cases, even a one-time-use mask could survive a couple of gentle cleanings.
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #486 on: April 08, 2020, 08:26:49 am »

Chancellor Angela Merkel recommends desinfecting masks in the microwave.

If it doesn’t have materials that melt.

elliot_n

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #487 on: April 08, 2020, 08:32:05 am »

Merkel was referring to DIY fabric masks. Standard surgical masks contain a strip of metal, so not a good candidate for the microwave.
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #488 on: April 08, 2020, 08:40:05 am »

Monday morning quarterbacking.  We'll know better next time.

Do you really think little old BC had information that Trump did not.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #489 on: April 08, 2020, 08:41:57 am »

It depends.

The cotton and similar could easily be washed, but those masks they are not that effective.

Allegedly some surgical masks can be disinfected by boiling for 3 min without significant damage but I have yet to see this confirmed. Probably you could leave them for days without touching them and the virus will die, even sooner if they get some sun.

For N95 they are coming with several options because of the current shortage. CDC said that 30 min at 70 degrees C will be good enough. Some use hydrogen peroxide vapors. Others (and my hospital I think it’s going with this) will use ethylene oxide gas, commonly used for medical devices.
Why not spray with alcohol and let dry in the sun?

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #490 on: April 08, 2020, 08:50:31 am »

There are always someone predicting stock market boom or crash. And then there is always someone saying something different. Some are usually right and some loose their shirts.
Once a year, our Men's Club goes to a NJ race track with our wives.  Probably around 50 people.  The track, either Freehold trotters or the thoroughbreds at Monmouth, set up a special room for us with  smorgasbord, chicken Milanese, and other delights, and booze and wine, and betting booths just for us.  We all have a great time.  At the end of each race, the winners start shouting with glee and appreciation of themselves telling everyone how they picked the winner using some mystical method or some other.  Then after the next race, those winners start screaming with glee and described how they picked their winners using their methods.  It's funny. None of them ever described how they picked their losers.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #491 on: April 08, 2020, 08:54:49 am »

Here's an article I read this morning about various materials that can be incorporated into homemade masks:  https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-homemade-mask-material-DIY-face-mask-ppe.html  Part of the problem with some materials is loose fibers, particularly if they contain fiberglass.
Fiberglass in your lungs can cause cancer like asbestos.  You don't want to be breathing in that stuff. 

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #492 on: April 08, 2020, 09:04:59 am »

Do you really think little old BC had information that Trump did not.
Ever go to a race track and follow the picks of the experts.  They don't pick winners all the time either.  We get advice everyday about things.  Stocks, the weather, etc. How do you know which advice is the correct one.  If we could know, we'd all pick the winners at the race track and the stock market and all be very rich.  Obviously, someone is going to be right.  But some people pick long shots and other pick the favorites.  But not all the horses are going to win.  So your constant reminded about Trump is silly and politicking, something this thread isn't about, or so I'm told. 

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #493 on: April 08, 2020, 09:21:14 am »

Can you clean nitrile gloves?

chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #494 on: April 08, 2020, 09:39:59 am »

Ever go to a race track and follow the picks of the experts.  They don't pick winners all the time either.  We get advice everyday about things.  Stocks, the weather, etc. How do you know which advice is the correct one.  If we could know, we'd all pick the winners at the race track and the stock market and all be very rich.  Obviously, someone is going to be right.  But some people pick long shots and other pick the favorites.  But not all the horses are going to win.  So your constant reminded about Trump is silly and politicking, something this thread isn't about, or so I'm told.

If not use the advice from experts...who's advice would be better to use? Do I listen to the experts about stocks each morning or do I go to the corner store and get his advice.

In this case...there were many experts saying the same damn thing. Your insistence of experts aren't always right is correct...but tell me who else would you listen to if the experts all are saying the same thing.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #495 on: April 08, 2020, 09:55:00 am »

In response to the idea what no one knew what to do at the onset of the contagion, I listened to a report about the Spanish Flu epidemic yesterday (recent podcast episode of NPR's Human Brain https://www.npr.org/2020/03/23/820066211/an-unfinished-lesson-what-the-1918-flu-tells-us-about-human-nature) and they did social distancing in 1918-1919.

I can´t remember where I posted the picture anymore, so many threads... it was a pic from NatGeo with a series of graphics from the 1918 influenza, on the epidemic curve for several cities in the USA. The ones that had fewer deaths were the ones that implemented quarantine earlier. So no surprise there - 100 years later, human society is very different, but viruses are not, they are very basic and predictable.

I also read a report from a economy university saying that in the long term, protecting people and quarantining was better for the economy.

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #496 on: April 08, 2020, 09:55:50 am »

Why not spray with alcohol and let dry in the sun?

Alcohol can destroy the smaller fibers needed for proper filtering.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #497 on: April 08, 2020, 09:56:42 am »

If not use the advice from experts...who's advice would be better to use? Do I listen to the experts about stocks each morning or do I go to the corner store and get his advice.

In this case...there were many experts saying the same damn thing. Your insistence of experts aren't always right is correct...but tell me who else would you listen to if the experts all are saying the same thing.
It's not that experts aren't always right.  It's that their advice varies.  So it becomes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Think about camera recommendations here.  We're all pretty savvy about these things.  Yet someone asks a question, and they'll get half a dozen different recommendations, all may have some validity.  Almost always, there is no completely right answer. which I think is the situation here.  How do you balance economic issues against health issues.  There really is no winning solution.  This is one of those things that there will be great damage regardless of which way you go.  Of course, picking the better way is always easier after the race is over.  Big deal. 

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #498 on: April 08, 2020, 09:58:19 am »

It's not that experts aren't always right.  It's that their advice varies.  So it becomes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Think about camera recommendations here.  We're all pretty savvy about these things.  Yet someone asks a question, and they'll get half a dozen different recommendations, all may have some validity.  Almost always, there is no completely right answer. which I think is the situation here.  How do you balance economic issues against health issues.  There really is no winning solution.  This is one of those things that there will be great damage regardless of which way you go.  Of course, picking the better way is always easier after the race is over.  Big deal.

Are you actually comparing camera advice with health policy decisions?

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #499 on: April 08, 2020, 10:00:21 am »

I can´t remember where I posted the picture anymore, so many threads... it was a pic from NatGeo with a series of graphics from the 1918 influenza, on the epidemic curve for several cities in the USA. The ones that had fewer deaths were the ones that implemented quarantine earlier. So no surprise there - 100 years later, human society is very different, but viruses are not, they are very basic and predictable.

I also read a report from a economy university saying that in the long term, protecting people and quarantining was better for the economy.
If people were smart and learned from experience, there would have been no WWII.
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