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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86346 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #420 on: April 06, 2020, 11:33:54 pm »

Rather than being furious...they should be grateful. So if the US doesn't lose 100,000 people to the virus...people will be pissed off? Man...that's ass backwards way of thinking. Very selfish thoughts.
If the government said today that they're taking away everyone's car and forcing people to take public transportation in order to save 30,000 lives annually due to auto accidents, most people would be furious, even those who  may have lost family members in accidents.  So asking them to give up their livelihood and let their families starve and calling them selfish just isn't fair and reasonable. Only the independently wealthy can be self-righteous and claim unselfishness.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #421 on: April 06, 2020, 11:43:11 pm »

If the government said today that they're taking away everyone's car and forcing people to take public transportation in order to save 30,000 lives annually due to auto accidents, most people would be furious, even those who  may have lost family members in accidents.  So asking them to give up their livelihood and let their families starve and calling them selfish just isn't fair and reasonable. Only the independently wealthy can be self-righteous and claim unselfishness.

Good point, but this is only half true.
Even if some workers are anxious to return to their jobs, many of those companies, such as restaurants, hotels, airlines are closed because their services are not needed. Not now, and sadly even for the foreseeable future the service businesses won't come back in the same way as before the crisis.
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kamma1

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #422 on: April 07, 2020, 01:11:20 am »

Isn't this the non-political thread?

An article in the Corriere della Sera focuses on a tv presenter who still tests positive a month after his first test, and weeks after symptoms subsided.  Doctors cited in the article refer to similar cases.  So the advice that it's ok to resume normal life after 14 days (does the UK still say 7 days?) have passed from symptoms is, at least in some cases, incorrect. 

https://www.corriere.it/cronache/20_aprile_06/coronavirus-iena-politi-da-30-giorni-positivo-l-infettivologo-galli-diversi-casiora-serve-approfondire-30e72946-77f1-11ea-98b9-85d4a42f03ea.shtml

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #423 on: April 07, 2020, 01:16:54 am »

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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #424 on: April 07, 2020, 01:26:49 am »

Can a tiger get infected by eating a sick man?

I think the opposite happened in China.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #425 on: April 07, 2020, 01:31:54 am »

There is already a paper from China documenting SARS-CoV-2 virus in common cats.  It's not known what the relevance this is as cats can get infected by a variety of coronaviruses.  I have not seen any papers documenting cat to human transmission.
But it's been said that a CHinese got the virus by eating some animal.  COuld that have been a tiger or from the cat family?  What's genetically common between humans and cats but not other mammals? I emailed a director at the NIH working for Fauci to ask him this question and give him the news about the tiger.  He responded by saying: thanks, OK.  I hope they look into it.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #426 on: April 07, 2020, 01:33:31 am »

Of course you shouldn't trust anything the experts tell you. What do they know? This whole social distancing and masks thing is bollocks. For example, yesterday afternoon I rounded up our church youth group, and we all piled into vans to visit local nursing homes. You know residents in nursing homes are lonely and really look forward to having visitors. You should have seen their eyes light up when we walked in.

By the way, you mentioned earlier that you were diabetic. I sure hope you haven't fallen for that whole insulin thing. What a scam. That's just big pharma ripping you off. And you really didn't need that triple bypass. The doctor just had college tuition payments due for his two sons. Treating acid reflux as a heart attack is the oldest trick in the book.

The best thing you can do is ignore expert advice and go with your gut.
Nobody should follow a doctor's advice blindly.  One has to use some discernment.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #427 on: April 07, 2020, 04:07:58 am »

But it's been said that a CHinese got the virus by eating some animal.  COuld that have been a tiger or from the cat family?  What's genetically common between humans and cats but not other mammals? I emailed a director at the NIH working for Fauci to ask him this question and give him the news about the tiger.  He responded by saying: thanks, OK.  I hope they look into it.

Three more tigers and three lions there were diagnosed with dry cough. They are all on medications now and seem to be on the mend.

Quote
Officials believe this is a unique case because Nadia, the Malayan tiger became sick after exposure to an asymptomatic zoo employee. Calle said the zoo did not know which employee infected the tiger.
“There have been some test results in dogs and cats, but they were either healthy or it wasn’t clear that COVID was the cause of the illness,” Calle said.

The first tiger at the zoo, which has been shut since mid-March, began showing signs of illness on March 27, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture National Veterinary Services Laboratories, which performed the test.

The virus that causes COVID-19 is believed to have spread from animals to humans, and a handful of animals have tested positive in Hong Kong.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-zoo/tiger-with-covid-19-gets-meds-tlc-from-new-yorks-bronx-zoo-keepers-idUSKBN21O2Y2

 
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #428 on: April 07, 2020, 04:49:44 am »

Higher rate doesn;t mean anything.  There were 500,000 deaths from the common flu.  Currently there are 71,000 deaths from Covid 19.  That's about 1/7TH. Let's say the final Covid results are the same - 500,000.  Young people who have lost the jobs and still aren't working 3 months from now are going to ask why the economy was destroyed, why are they not working?  Who's thinking about them?  They're not going to care about old farts like me.

I'm not saying they're acting reasonable.  What I'm asking is how policy makers are going to respond?  Will they tell them they have to suck it up?  Will they just print a lot more money and bankrupt the entire country?

Each country is taking different measures to face the health crisis and the ensuing economic crisis. EU moves at a slower pace, but something will be done to cater for the economy of the affected countries. In Portugal, where the large part of the economic structure is made of small companies, the problem is a short one - there is no money to pay salaries because there is no income. So the gov. has implemented a program of lay off, people go home temporarily and receive 2/3 of their monthly salary. Credit lines have also been opened to keep companies afloat. At the end of the day, the EU will have to come up with a concerted approach, otherwise it will be deemed as useless.

So yes, unemployment will go up, country debts will go up (Portugal's debt is 120% of GIP), but we will survive. I think it will be become clear in the coming weeks how policy makers will react, but the signs are out already. As for young people, they will survive too and adapt. Right now, I see a lot of young people who can not mourn their dead family members.

IMO, health comes first, and the economic balance will fall in naturally after that.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #429 on: April 07, 2020, 06:19:51 am »

  Of course, China stands to gain as they're the only people who save.  Plus they make cheap goods that we still need.   Maybe they started the virus to create this mess and help them pass America.

That sentiment is not only spectacularly asinine, it has no place in this thread. Final warning, Alan.

Jeremy
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #430 on: April 07, 2020, 07:20:28 am »

N95 and surgical masks do not seem to be very effective against COVID-19, some tests indicate. Counterintuitively there are more COVID-19 traces found outside the mask than inside after an infected patient sneezes.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison?fbclid=IwAR2PmbMBLkJflQI9jUwpBg6rgNQSy7Kw3CeoMjqaK5BP2imK9vYSfig6Lyc

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #431 on: April 07, 2020, 07:26:49 am »

Here's some good news about "curve flattening" in British Columbia on Canada's west coast, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ontario-quebec-covid-19-1.5524056. It's an analysis of what went right. It was interesting to read about their public health planning. With all the shouting, we don't get to hear about how things can be done right, too boring I guess. Public health is really quite different than what we normally think of as medical care. The doctor-patient relationship is a one on one interaction but public health is a public commons arena, requires a different mind set.

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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #432 on: April 07, 2020, 07:27:13 am »

Thank you, Slobodan for posting the link to the interesting article.
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degrub

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #433 on: April 07, 2020, 07:38:17 am »

Here is an interesting Mythbusters video about how easy it is to spread virus on droplets -
https://youtu.be/3wPKBpk7wUY

and how to slow a sneeze dispersion -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vw0hIs2LEg


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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #434 on: April 07, 2020, 10:37:16 am »

Three more tigers and three lions there were diagnosed with dry cough. They are all on medications now and seem to be on the mend.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-zoo/tiger-with-covid-19-gets-meds-tlc-from-new-yorks-bronx-zoo-keepers-idUSKBN21O2Y2

 
Maybe Fauci should try catnip to see if it's effective.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #435 on: April 07, 2020, 10:43:17 am »

Each country is taking different measures to face the health crisis and the ensuing economic crisis. EU moves at a slower pace, but something will be done to cater for the economy of the affected countries. In Portugal, where the large part of the economic structure is made of small companies, the problem is a short one - there is no money to pay salaries because there is no income. So the gov. has implemented a program of lay off, people go home temporarily and receive 2/3 of their monthly salary. Credit lines have also been opened to keep companies afloat. At the end of the day, the EU will have to come up with a concerted approach, otherwise it will be deemed as useless.

So yes, unemployment will go up, country debts will go up (Portugal's debt is 120% of GIP), but we will survive. I think it will be become clear in the coming weeks how policy makers will react, but the signs are out already. As for young people, they will survive too and adapt. Right now, I see a lot of young people who can not mourn their dead family members.

IMO, health comes first, and the economic balance will fall in naturally after that.
Where does the broke Portugal treasury get the money to pay out-of-work people while it's waiting for the EU money?  It can't print it like America. Where does the EU get the money from? Are the rich nations in the EU going to bail everyone out again?  What will this do to the EU?  Will they follow GB a la Brexit? Is anyone in Europe thinking this through? 

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #436 on: April 07, 2020, 10:44:42 am »

Maybe Fauci should try catnip to see if it's effective.

Or they should tell the Zoo employees to wear the masks and not to sneeze when they are less than 6 ft from the tigers.
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #437 on: April 07, 2020, 11:07:23 am »

N95 and surgical masks do not seem to be very effective against COVID-19, some tests indicate. Counterintuitively there are more COVID-19 traces found outside the mask than inside after an infected patient sneezes.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison?fbclid=IwAR2PmbMBLkJflQI9jUwpBg6rgNQSy7Kw3CeoMjqaK5BP2imK9vYSfig6Lyc

The article is quite short (took me a minute to read) and it doesn’t say that.

First, they did not use any N95 masks.
Second, their last paragraph is deceiving. If you read the one before the last they state they don’t know what these results actually mean. They don’t filter all the particles, sure. The Petri dishes were placed only 20 cm away from their face, and the masks for sure reduce the size of the larger droplets which might travel further and be more infectious (higher quantity).

The conclusion that I take from this is: if a person coughs and has a mask, don’t stay closer to them than you would if they didn’t have a mask.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #438 on: April 07, 2020, 11:11:18 am »

That sentiment is not only spectacularly asinine, it has no place in this thread. Final warning, Alan.

Jeremy
Jeremy, It's not spectacularly asinine.  Wuhan City where the virus started has a top secret Chinese lab that develops and researches viruses.  It's possible that they weaponize diseases there and it got out by mistake.  The purpose of weaponizing is to be used in an adversarial attack.  Certainly discussions about that possibility is a valid concern.  I guarantee American secret agencies are investigating the possibility and may even know what happened, just keeping it quiet.  Even your own Boris Johnson and his government thinks there's a possibility.  If it can't be discussed in this thread, where can you discuss it? Threatening me with banning seems arbitrary.  What standard are you using so posters know what limits you have in mind?
https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-government-coronavirus-may-leaked-chinese-laboratory-covid-2020-4

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #439 on: April 07, 2020, 11:13:33 am »

... The conclusion that I take from this is: if a person coughs and has a mask, don’t stay closer to them than you would if they didn’t have a mask.

Dare I draw a different conclusion from what you said above? If one keeps the distance, masks are not needed?
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