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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86394 times)

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #320 on: April 04, 2020, 10:09:40 pm »

This was a serious thread with useful information for a while.

Alan, place those sophomoric pictures on the other thread please.

I don't think he can control himself, as it was said before, it's a reflex now.

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #321 on: April 04, 2020, 10:10:26 pm »

Germany has almost as many deaths as America on a per capita basis.  We must be doing well too.

Can you for once actually read the article?

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #322 on: April 04, 2020, 10:26:41 pm »

Simple mask were available on Amazon.  I just received in 50 of them.  Why didn't you order some before? Were you listening to Trump. :)

Thanks for the tip, Alan
At this time, I have two well made, heavy-duty face masks made by a friend. Also, I have several scarves, and some old garments from which I could make bandanas and simple masks.
But the main thing is that I don't venture out much, and when I do, I try to keep a safe distance from others. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #323 on: April 05, 2020, 12:01:01 am »

Alan, you can delete your post, using the Remove function. And then I'll delete this one by me.
I removed both pictures.  I'm sorry for offending you and everyone else.

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #324 on: April 05, 2020, 12:03:08 am »

Given that store-bought masks are going to be unobtanium for a while, I did a little research on DIY masks. Turns out blue shop towel is a good material.

https://totallythebomb.com/blue-shop-towels-may-be-the-best-material-to-use-when-making-face-masks

Just made one of these:

https://youtu.be/edQAHCRTIVQ

albeit without the paper clip nose piece. Fairly comfortable

Have a 12-pack of blue shop towel rolls in the garage, so I'm "covered" for a while.

edit: ran out to Office Deport to buy paper clips and rubber bands. The paper clip makes the mask a little fiddly to make, but it does give a better seal, and keeps my glasses from trying to fog up.
I'm using #33 rubber bands and #1 paper clips, they seem to be the right size.

Good stuff, looks like I found another hobby  :D

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #325 on: April 05, 2020, 12:05:55 am »

I wonder if Trump will give us money for decreasing home prices.  Here we go again.

A $1.3 Trillion U.S. Housing Market Crash Is Imminent, and Inevitable
https://www.ccn.com/a-1-3-trillion-u-s-housing-market-crash-is-imminent-and-inevitable/

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #326 on: April 05, 2020, 12:08:23 am »

Gasoline prices will remain low offsetting the drop in your home values.  What a mess.

Oil set to ‘crater’ Monday as OPEC meeting delayed, tensions flare between Saudi Arabia and Russia
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/04/oil-set-to-crater-monday-as-opec-meeting-delayed-tensions-flare-between-saudi-arabia-and-russia.html

Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #327 on: April 05, 2020, 12:27:22 am »

This was a serious thread with useful information for a while.

Strongly seconded.  There’s another COVID-19 thread for political arguments, economic pontification, and other personal opinions.  Let’s reserve this one for discussion of the virus and the medical response to it — hopefully supported by factual information.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 04:14:02 am by Chris Kern »
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kamma1

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #328 on: April 05, 2020, 01:47:48 am »

As an update on the mask question, as of this morning we in Lombardy are now required to wear a mask whenever we leave home.  Good news, I'm tired of having to take even more precautions because of other people's irresponsibility.  (Though I still can't go for a walk in the woods because people treated it like a picnic opportunity....)

Jonathan Cross

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #329 on: April 05, 2020, 03:55:56 am »

On the past two Thursdays at 8pm people have stood outside their houses or at an open window and clapped for the National Health Service and the amazing selfless work they are doing to treat patients and reconfigure hospitals to cope with increasing demand.  To then hear of people going out because it is nice weather and getting too close seems selfish in the extreme.

Jonathan

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Jonathan in UK

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #330 on: April 05, 2020, 04:07:22 am »

[...]Let’s reserve this one for discussion of the virus and the medical response to it — hopefully supported by factual information.

+1
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #331 on: April 05, 2020, 04:39:34 am »

... as of this morning we in Lombardy are now required to wear a mask whenever we leave home.  Good news ...

Kamma1, where (as in which region) of Lombardy are you ?
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #332 on: April 05, 2020, 04:57:02 am »

I'm taking all the necessary precautions.  What works for you where you live may be entirely different from over here.  Have you spent 10 seconds wondering why people are wearing masks but now protective eye glasses since the virus can enter there?  Most people are wearing their masks wrong, some even adjust them while they are out.  I could go on and on and on.  If it will please you, I'll gladly wear a bandana next time I go to the market. 

There are small number of us who are trying to present up to date scientific information here; I don't see you doing this, only scolding people.

You are eliding three separate issues.

1. I am sure The Daily Goldhammer is read with fascination by many. I am not among them, but if preparing it gives you something to do and makes you feel useful, by all means persist. Others have different ways of self-justification.

2. Standard surgical masks worn for personal protection are probably almost totally ineffective. It's not what they were designed to do. Proper PPE is dramatically different.

3. Surgical masks worn in public to prevent spread by those infected to prevent spread are probably useful. It is wearing a mask for that purpose which you wilfully refuse to do; as you have observed, those around you are wearing them, so you are relatively safe and it plainly doesn't concern you that you may unwittingly pass on infection to others while you are asymptomatic.

It is the casual disregard for anyone save yourself, the unwillingness to take the trivial precaution adopted by those around you, that is reprehensible.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #333 on: April 05, 2020, 05:30:04 am »

I don't cough or sneeze when I go out.  When I go to the market, I am in and out in 10 minutes and always use the self-check out.  I also live in a suburban, low density, housing setting.  It's good to see that you have not lost your snarky sense of humor and have no comprehension of living and shopping environments here in the US.

1.  It's amazing to learn that you are the only individual on God's Earth who has total control of where, when and why he sneezes or coughs.

2.  Many of us live in low-density housing area. I live in a holiday resort. It's empty of tourists every winter, and by the manner in which the Spanish resident behave today, it appears totally empty of Spaniards too, except for those who toil daily in the food supply chain. Perhaps that's a stay-home enthusiasm brought about by the horrendous death totals, which concentrate the mind wonderfully. Is it going to take proportionate deaths for the US to learn the obvious lessons too?

3.  I'm surprised to learn, also, that you believe we don't have shopping malls, supermarkets, out-of-town hypermarkets etc. in the UK and the rest of Europe, and that your shopping options are so different to ours.

4. Not humour: admonishement for crass public behaviour in a time of an international life/death crisis.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #334 on: April 05, 2020, 05:30:27 am »

+1

+1,000,000

There is enough "other discussions" in the other thread, let's not bring it to this one.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #335 on: April 05, 2020, 05:35:48 am »

Here in Portugal it seems that the daily growth rate has decreased, and it's keeping at 9%. 3 weeks after closing schools, we are seeing the effect. Children have a stronger immune system, and they can infect other people without knowing. In Italy, seems that closing the schools and sending kids to stay with their grand parents was a disaster.

Here, the state of ermergency was prolonged for 2 more weeks. There is now talk of developing a blood test to see who is immune - they will be the first ones to go back to work, or back to school. Priority is to medical personnel, to avoid having say 50 people in isolation, and say 25 of them unnecessarily.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #336 on: April 05, 2020, 05:37:33 am »

I am working from home, and I envy my cat:) Just a picture to lighten the mood.

Stay safe everyone.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #337 on: April 05, 2020, 05:45:03 am »

2. Standard surgical masks worn for personal protection are probably almost totally ineffective. It's not what they were designed to do. Proper PPE is dramatically different.

Different yes, but only effective when used properly.  And the effectiveness of surgical masks can be easily improved with a minor modification. But then they would need to be made available to the general public first. While in short supply, they should remain to be reserved for healtcare professionals.

Quote
3. Surgical masks worn in public to prevent spread by those infected to prevent spread are probably useful. It is wearing a mask for that purpose which you willfully refuse to do; as you have observed, those around you are wearing them, so you are relatively safe and it plainly doesn't concern you that you may unwittingly pass on infection to others while you are asymptomatic.

Assuming that the recommended guidelines are followed, i.e. stay at home if symptomatic and keep distance when meeting other people (who could be pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic, or plainly contagious) and wash hands regularly and don't touch your face, a mask, any mask will have very limited effect. In fact, it can make matters worse, because it can become a source of infection. Don't touch your mask, and wash hands/face when you do.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #338 on: April 05, 2020, 05:56:24 am »

Here in Portugal it seems that the daily growth rate has decreased, and it's keeping at 9%. 3 weeks after closing schools, we are seeing the effect. Children have a stronger immune system, and they can infect other people without knowing. In Italy, seems that closing the schools and sending kids to stay with their grand parents was a disaster.

Here, the state of ermergency was prolonged for 2 more weeks. There is now talk of developing a blood test to see who is immune - they will be the first ones to go back to work, or back to school. Priority is to medical personnel, to avoid having say 50 people in isolation, and say 25 of them unnecessarily.

Good to hear. Similar things happening in the Netherlands. The curve is flattening, but we are dangerously close to maxing out the (already expanded by more than a factor of 2) ICU capacity. So the flattening of the curve is very welcome, and has been the main strategy from the onset.

Something that is often overlooked, or so it seems, is that only increasing the number of ventilators is not enough. Personnel to operate the equipment and treat the patients in the ICU is also limited, and it would take too long to train more. So re-distribution of the patient load is also very important. Locations that were approaching their limits have sent patients to other locations, and we have very good contacts with Germany who have a much larger reserve of ICUs.

Our state of emergency has been prolonged to end of April, but is being updated weekly (or sooner if necessary).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 06:02:29 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #339 on: April 05, 2020, 05:58:07 am »

Germany has almost as many deaths as America on a per capita basis.  We must be doing well too.

As of today, USA has 26 deaths per million, and Germany 17. There is a good chance that due to limited testing the USA infections are under reported.
When the testing in USA will ramp up, the absolute infection count will go up, and the relative death counts in both countries might look more similar.
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