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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86371 times)

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #260 on: April 02, 2020, 01:25:22 pm »

They are very vulnerable places. Old population, many health problems, with not always a good understanding of biology, communal eating and people coming to visit all the time. My mother's residence closed to all visitors weeks ago and are delivering food to each apartment, no congregating in the lounge areas, etc. But you can see how a simple slip-up, e.g., delivering prescriptions, could cause a problem. And there is a fairly large staff who go home every night, although they have their own incentive to abide by rules and guidelines, they don't want to get sick either.

I've had my father/mother in law in full time care homes and the biggest problem is the lack of facilities and staff. There is a constant long line of patients waiting to get a spot in these care homes and the staff in these homes work their butts off, burning out and having a huge turn over. With the boomer bulge about to enter that stage, it's going to be a huge issue.
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #261 on: April 03, 2020, 08:01:46 am »

Cross-posted in the 'other' thread, but more useful here :







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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #262 on: April 03, 2020, 08:53:44 am »

Looks like the data is going to be examined from every angle, and should be. Is there anyone looking at the impact of travel? People are arguing about the exact date that travel to China was stopped, but given how ubiquitous travel is everywhere would it have had much impact to do it sooner? Canada stopped/controlled travel to China, I forget on which date, but about a million Canadians returned from abroad in the last few weeks. Isn't that kind of a wash from the point of view of risk?

It seems kind of impossible to isolate any one region of the globe after the fact, although some travel slowdown might aid in curve flattening. That is to say, it's just one more facet not necessarily a critical one. Is this sensible or am I missing something?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #263 on: April 03, 2020, 10:34:53 am »

I have a question about face masks, as they are being touted as a useful tool to wear generally.

The first report I heard/read about this (some podcast or other about 3 weeks ago) was that the virus was about a micron in size whereas masks were good down to about 3 microns. Is this correct or faulty memory on my part?  The thing is that it's all a haze now, not sure which masks they were talking about anymore.

Is it the mask itself that is helping or is it that people who wear masks are just generally more careful and do everything else right too? How would you even determine this?

It would be counter-productive if people start to feel invincible because they have a mask on.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #264 on: April 03, 2020, 10:52:53 am »

... It would be counter-productive if people start to feel invincible because they have a mask on.

About half of the people I encountered in restaurants and shops wear their masks around their neck.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #265 on: April 03, 2020, 11:17:39 am »

I have a question about face masks, as they are being touted as a useful tool to wear generally.

The first report I heard/read about this (some podcast or other about 3 weeks ago) was that the virus was about a micron in size whereas masks were good down to about 3 microns. Is this correct or faulty memory on my part?  The thing is that it's all a haze now, not sure which masks they were talking about anymore.

Is it the mask itself that is helping or is it that people who wear masks are just generally more careful and do everything else right too? How would you even determine this?

It would be counter-productive if people start to feel invincible because they have a mask on.

From what I've heard, the size is < 1.0 micron. But direct infection is not likely if people maintain a physical distance of 5-6 feet. Probably most infections are indirect, from toughing infected surfaces and subsequently eyes, nose or mouth. Face masks can make matters worse, increasing infection, when touched (taking them off). Besides, they are more useful in the hands of trained medical professionals, whom are faced with a shortage.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #266 on: April 03, 2020, 11:23:17 am »

About half of the people I encountered in restaurants and shops wear their masks around their neck.

Kind of makes sense in a restaurant.  :)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #267 on: April 03, 2020, 11:37:23 am »

Kind of makes sense in a restaurant.  :)

Absolutely, but why are they open anyway?
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #268 on: April 03, 2020, 11:44:46 am »

From my point of view the main benefit of a mask is to decrease the extent of infectious particles that somebody infected will spread, particularly if they cough. Also there will be less contaminated surfaces that aren't touched or cleaned that often if you cough with a mask on.
The other possible advantage would be that it will decrease how often you touch your face if you have a mask.

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #269 on: April 03, 2020, 12:05:25 pm »

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #270 on: April 03, 2020, 01:09:31 pm »

I have a question about face masks, as they are being touted as a useful tool to wear generally.

The first report I heard/read about this (some podcast or other about 3 weeks ago) was that the virus was about a micron in size whereas masks were good down to about 3 microns. Is this correct or faulty memory on my part?  The thing is that it's all a haze now, not sure which masks they were talking about anymore.

Is it the mask itself that is helping or is it that people who wear masks are just generally more careful and do everything else right too? How would you even determine this?

It would be counter-productive if people start to feel invincible because they have a mask on.

It's the opposite of what you are thinking. The mask does more good preventing the virus from being airborne from people already infected. That is one reason people think Asian countries better handle this virus, their culture of not spreading their germs onto others. In Japan it is looked down upon if you cough or sneeze in the presence of others...thus many wears masks when they are sick so not to spread their virus onto others.

The western culture is to protect self, the Asian culture is to protect others.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #271 on: April 03, 2020, 01:27:25 pm »

Kind of makes sense in a restaurant.  :)

I meant restaurant workers who are preparing takeout food and delivering it to you through a narrow opening. In my town, restaurants are closed. Not in Sweden though.

Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #272 on: April 03, 2020, 01:38:54 pm »

I have a question about face masks, as they are being touted as a useful tool to wear generally.

This is an ongoing issue, or as the CMO said this afternoon in his daily Downing Street broadcast, somwthinng under discussion for over 15 years. The Brits, in the absence of definitive stats, consider it essential only for medical staff. In Asia, it's customary / habitual.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #273 on: April 03, 2020, 01:44:16 pm »

... In Asia, it's customary / habitual.

Isn't it also for polluted air (crop burning)?

armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #274 on: April 03, 2020, 01:46:50 pm »

Isn't it also for polluted air (crop burning)?

Try one in a polluted area and see how much they help.

John Camp

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #275 on: April 03, 2020, 01:46:58 pm »

From what I've heard, the size is < 1.0 micron. But direct infection is not likely if people maintain a physical distance of 5-6 feet. Probably most infections are indirect, from toughing infected surfaces and subsequently eyes, nose or mouth. Face masks can make matters worse, increasing infection, when touched (taking them off). Besides, they are more useful in the hands of trained medical professionals, whom are faced with a shortage.

As I understand it, the viruses are less than a micron, but are not spread as naked viruses -- they are embedded in saliva spray (as in coughing) and the spray droplets are considerably larger than 3 microns. 
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #276 on: April 03, 2020, 01:53:58 pm »

From what I've heard, the size is < 1.0 micron. But direct infection is not likely if people maintain a physical distance of 5-6 feet. Probably most infections are indirect, from toughing infected surfaces and subsequently eyes, nose or mouth. Face masks can make matters worse, increasing infection, when touched (taking them off). Besides, they are more useful in the hands of trained medical professionals, whom are faced with a shortage.

As I understand it, the viruses are less than a micron, but are not spread as naked viruses -- they are embedded in saliva spray (as in coughing) and the spray droplets are considerably larger than 3 microns. 

You are both correct.
Most infections are from indirect contact, particularly as this virus seems to be a little more resilient than the regular flu. If you keep touching your mask and not wash hands after, it can do more harm than good.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 02:23:28 pm by armand »
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #277 on: April 03, 2020, 02:01:05 pm »

As I understand it, the viruses are less than a micron, but are not spread as naked viruses -- they are embedded in saliva spray (as in coughing) ...

That doesn't entirely fit with the hand to eyes/nose/mouth infection risk. I'm not saying it's incorect, just that from what I'm hearing the risk is equally spread.
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Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #278 on: April 03, 2020, 02:03:12 pm »

...  If you keep touching your mask and find wash hands after, it can do more harm than good.

Armand, could you clarify this, please ?
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #279 on: April 03, 2020, 02:10:48 pm »

Armand, could you clarify this, please ?

Sorry, typing from my phone with autocorrect enabled can lead to weird statements.

When you have the mask on, it can protect you from droplets from nearby coughers and it can prevent you from touching your face with contaminated hands. However, you should consider your mask as a contamination source when you take it off or just touching it.

So you should take it off with care not to touch the outside of your mask to your face, or to touch  your face with your hands when you take the mask off. After it's off, you should immediately wash your hands or use sanitizer.
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