Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 72   Go Down

Author Topic: COVID-19 updates  (Read 37941 times)

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2020, 06:58:20 pm »

All that demonstrates is lack of universally-agreed consensus. Numbers are not themselves sufficient. There was a famous paper a long time ago entitled "a hundred authors against Einstein": it didn't mean he was wrong.

Jeremy

While consensus is tough to achieve in many fields, the difference between scientists opinions here is much less than.
I think ideally these decisions should be made by non political entities who have been trained/ have experience with this, perhaps guided by computer generated algorithms who won't be thinking about the votes they will lose/gain.

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2020, 07:17:41 pm »

About mask wearing in Hong King: all the multiple medical sources I’ve checked say that masks are quite effective against spreading flu and such from an infected person wearing the mask, and with COVID-19 apparently contagious for quite a while before symptoms show, I can see mask wearing as having a distinct altruistic benefit; like self-quarantine when one has risk factors like multiple hand-shakes and photo-ops with infected people.

What they also say is that masks provide very little protection for the wearer, unless they are expertly custom-fitted, as with medical professionals.
Logged

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5022
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2020, 07:24:36 pm »

About mask wearing in Hong King: all the multiple medical sources I’ve checked say that masks are quite effective against spreading flu and such from an infected person wearing the mask, and with COVID-19 apparently contagious for quite a while before symptoms show, I can see mask wearing as having a distinct altruistic benefit; like self-quarantine when one has risk factors like multiple hand-shakes and photo-ops with infected people.

What they also say is that masks provide very little protection for the wearer, unless they are expertly custom-fitted, as with medical professionals.

I have also heard the same this. 

For the most part, wearing of mask helps doctors/nurses from having saliva or snot sneezed or coughed into their mouth and nose from a sick patient.  However, the standard medical mask does not filter out pathogens.  For that you would need an respirator. 

Fortunately if we have a SHTF situation break out in the USA, I have a couple from working on my house. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:30:15 pm by JoeKitchen »
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2020, 07:25:20 pm »

All that demonstrates is lack of universally-agreed consensus. Numbers are not themselves sufficient. There was a famous paper a long time ago entitled "a hundred authors against Einstein": it didn't mean he was wrong.
That might be all that it proves beyond any doubt, but a strong scientific consensus does indicate a high probability of it being right. (Arguments based on lack of certainty are usually the domain of those who desire to believe otherwise.)

The argument that “one time about a century ago a big group of scientists were wrong about a radical new idea” is very weak in the realm of evidentiary science as opposed to logical/philosophical/religious certainty.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:28:58 pm by BJL »
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2020, 07:28:31 pm »

What they also say is that masks provide very little protection for the wearer, unless they are expertly custom-fitted, as with medical professionals.

what they forgot to say is that mask simply serves a good reminder simply not to touch your face when in public before you wash your hands
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2020, 07:31:40 pm »

what they forgot to say is that mask simply serves a good reminder simply not to touch your face when in public before you wash your hands
That could also be true (aside: do you have evidence that medical authorities are not saying that?)

I know the difficulties of avoiding face touching: my plan is rubbing my fingers in hot sauce.
Logged

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5022
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2020, 07:33:47 pm »

That could also be true (aside: do you have evidence that medical authorities are not saying that?)

I know the difficulties of avoiding face touching: my plan is rubbing my fingers in hot sauce.

Does this plan have procedures for when you have to use the bathroom?  ???
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2020, 08:12:49 pm »

Does this plan have procedures for when you have to use the bathroom?  ???
See the previous advice about careful hand-washing.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2020, 10:10:38 pm »

While consensus is tough to achieve in many fields, the difference between scientists opinions here is much less than.
I think ideally these decisions should be made by non political entities who have been trained/ have experience with this, perhaps guided by computer generated algorithms who won't be thinking about the votes they will lose/gain.
You mean like Hal in 2001 A Space Odyssey?

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2020, 10:46:21 pm »

You mean like Hal in 2001 A Space Odyssey?

Great movie but Hal is behind times. Plus the computer can’t actually kill you but give you the support to make unpopular decisions. But you already knew that and are just trying to pull my leg.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2020, 10:54:30 pm »

Great movie but Hal is behind times. Plus the computer can’t actually kill you but give you the support to make unpopular decisions. But you already knew that and are just trying to pull my leg.
The point I was making is that scientists have a one-track mind.  They don;t respond to the public directly because they aren't elected.  Their viewpoint is limited to science and not necessarily what the public wants or needs.

So first off, who would decide which scientists will have the final say so?  It has to come from elected leaders who must have the final say-so.  That's the way the world works.  Would you want generals deciding whether to go to war or not?  Shouldn;t elected leaders who answer to the public be making those life and death decisions?  Of course, I agree that elected leaders should listen to generals and scientists.  Especially their recommendations on how to fight the war. But the final decision must be by elected leaders. 

PS if 2001 doesn;t work for you, how about Dr. Strangelove?  :)

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2020, 11:46:41 pm »

The first person with the virus in my township in New Jersey was discovered today.  He was sent home to self-quarantine.   I guess the virus is working is way down from NYC.   My wife and I cancelled our dinner out with friends and we all ate at home together.  I went out to pick up Italian food to bring home.  The homeowners association shutdown the clubhouse in my 55+ community which makes a lot of sense since most of us are old and have secondary medical issues that make getting the disease more dangerous for us.  No poker this week.   Our newly hired tax preparer cancelled his appointment today with us.  He said his daughter didn't want him to go out.  People have cleaned out all the toilet paper and water from Costco's nearby.  Maybe they got diarrhea and are especially thirsty although tap water is pretty good around here.  Supermarket shelves are emptying out.  People are nuts.   

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2020, 11:55:41 pm »

In Ontario, 24 new Covid-19 cases were reported today. Many Community centres canceled all their events till April 5. Dances, workshops, classes, card games. Big question is whether the closings will extend beyond that date. No line-ups in the bank and the medical lab. Long line-ups in the supermarkets.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2020, 12:06:07 am »

In Ontario, 24 new Covid-19 cases were reported today. Many Community centres canceled all their events till April 5. Dances, workshops, classes, card games. Big question is whether the closings will extend beyond that date. No line-ups in the bank and the medical lab. Long line-ups in the supermarkets.
A lot depends on how much economic pain people can take. 

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2020, 12:27:48 am »

The point I was making is that scientists have a one-track mind.  They don;t respond to the public directly because they aren't elected.  Their viewpoint is limited to science and not necessarily what the public wants or needs.

 ...

PS if 2001 doesn;t work for you, how about Dr. Strangelove?  :)
Speaking as a scientist, that is an obnoxious, ignorant, derogatory stereotype (which you support repeatedly with _fictional_ villains!) In the current situation it looks to me that medical scientists like Anthony Fauci of the CDC care far more about what people want or need than some political leaders.
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2020, 01:36:14 am »

New cruise offer

Logged

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2299
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2020, 04:27:46 am »

* deleted
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 05:23:54 am by Manoli »
Logged

Jeremy Roussak

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8961
    • site
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2020, 04:42:42 am »

Jeremy, as a health professional in an earlier life what is your opinion on the UK government's approach and in particular that of herd immunity?

I wouldn't presume to use medical knowledge that is the best part of 30 years out of date, Keith. I see the logic behind the argument, but whether it's a better approach than that adopted by other countries is a far wider question.

What are being reported as the current provisional plans to prohibit large gatherings of people seem to me to be sensible: one must always plan for the worst. The rationale, however, appears not to be that more people become infected in such gatherings, as people who are already infected are unlikely to pass it to those not in their immediate vicinity and those who acquire it at the gathering do not themselves become infectious for some days. Rather, it is aimed at avoiding the stress on public services caused by the need to police such gatherings.

There is no sensible rationale, it seems to me, behind closing schools: the young appear, oddly enough, not to be severely affected by the virus and the need for thousands of parents to absent themselves from work - including work in the NHS, the police and so on - to be with children who are not at school would have potentially catastrophic consequences.

The aim seems to be to flatten the infection curve, not so that fewer people become infected but so that they become infected over a longer period, placing less acute strain on health services. Is that sensible? I've no idea; but it's clear that the question goes beyond simple health and strays into the realm of economics.

FWIW, I have never seen the wearing of masks by the uninfected to be other than fatuous. They aren't designed to protect the wearer, and they don't.

Italians sing from their windows to boost morale

The morale of the singers, perhaps; I've heard it on the radio and it certainly did nothing for mine.

That might be all that it proves beyond any doubt, but a strong scientific consensus does indicate a high probability of it being right. (Arguments based on lack of certainty are usually the domain of those who desire to believe otherwise.)

The argument that “one time about a century ago a big group of scientists were wrong about a radical new idea” is very weak in the realm of evidentiary science as opposed to logical/philosophical/religious certainty.

The existence of a strong consensus would indicate that it's likely to be correct; but I've seen no evidence that such a consensus does in fact exist, and that letter certainly doesn't prove it. I wasn't referring to the Einstein nonsense as evidence that this group was wrong, merely as evidence that numbers don't equal correctness.

Jeremy
Logged

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2020, 05:03:50 am »

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: COVID-19 updates
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2020, 05:05:16 am »

Stockpiling masks and other medical items is also not a foolproof strategy.
After the SARS epidemic, Ontario stockpiled 55 million N95 masks and other medical items. Recently they announced that all those stockpiled masks have passed their expiration date. You really need multiple manufacturing facilities spread geographically.



Speaking about masks - in Hongkong they found that because of so many people there wearying the masks, not only they have relatively few cases of Covid19, but also the number of influenza cases is much lower than in the previous years. So it seems that the masks are quite effective in guarding against the viruses.

Muslim ladies have known all that for centuries. Unfortunately, masks are no alternative to Durex.

;-)
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 72   Go Up