Election 2020

[Rob C]

If you want to see deep-seated problems read about the arguments that preceded the adoption of our current Constitution. Then read about the arguments that led up to the civil war, and the arguments after that war was over on the subject of Reconstruction. Nothing really has changed. Happily, in the U.S., people can argue -- publicly nowadays on media such as Twitter, Facebook, etc., etc., -- and not have the current version of the Gestapo knocking down their doors. I don't think it's geography, Rob. I think it's an inherited trait -- the one that led to the revolution in the first place. It can be messy, but it's also incredibly productive.

We can argue across most of Europe too, without the modern Gestapo dropping in for a free beer.

Considering that the American nation is simply a product of the European ones that conquered the place, the same gene pool pretty much exists elsewhere, too.

Some see America as the greatest melting pot in the world; it's difficult to see that as having also been translated into harmony. To me, that melting pot isn't working in Britain, hasn't worked in Europe. Nothing is going to change the them and us perspective that rules how humans think. Tribal we are, and tribal is different to national, too. Even families sometimes end up killing one another.

It's remarked that no man is an island; I sometimes wonder if he was ever anything but.

Rob

[JoeKitchen]

We can argue across most of Europe too, without the modern Gestapo dropping in for a free beer.

Considering that the American nation is simply a product of the European ones that conquered the place, the same gene pool pretty much exists elsewhere, too.

Some see America as the greatest melting pot in the world; it's difficult to see that as having also been translated into harmony. To me, that melting pot isn't working in Britain, hasn't worked in Europe. Nothing is going to change the them and us perspective that rules how humans think. Tribal we are, and tribal is different to national, too. Even families sometimes end up killing one another.

It's remarked that no man is an island; I sometimes wonder if he was ever anything but.

Rob

You're missing the fact that nearly every nation on earth is, at least partly, defined by ethnicity.  You cant move to Germany and actually be a German without being German.  You can't move to Japan and be Japanese without actually being Japanese.  Even if this is not completely true politically, it is by the way of our diction. 

There is no race that is American by any definition.  You can move to America and become, without question, an American. 

Additionally, America is not simply a product of Europe.  It is the product of people who had the temerity to leave their own country for another unknown one, aka immigrants.  Although in Europe, you may have people with that same level of temerity, the concentration of people like this is higher in the USA and other immigrant countries. 

[John Camp]

There is no race that is American by any definition.  You can't move to America and become, without question, an American.

Joe, is that what you meant to say? I thought you might want to say that you CAN move to American and become, without question, an American. (At least, it's my opinion that you can.)

I agree the Bernie Bros are nuts. They're the people I knew back in college who could see no wrong in Castro, the Sandinistas, etc., even Russia, although later, Pol Pot somewhat shut them up. But, on the whole, I don't think they're as bad as the Trumpers. Huge crowds of people chanting "Lock her up?" Trump's rallies distinctly resemble the Italian Fascist rallies of the 1930s, and attract the same kind of people. IMHO. No replies necessary.

A question I haven't seen asked: I wonder if the Chinese will restrict the eating of wild animals? This is the third or fourth disease in the past few years to make the jump from "bush meat" to humans. (SARS, MERS, Ebola.) Can you imagine what would have happened if any of those had happened to have the same ability to spread as COVID-19? MERS has something like a 30% mortality rate. We would have been piling bodies in the streets. I wonder if the Chinese have done anything about restricting it?   

[Rob C]

Not sure if you missed this, but 80% to 90% of the world's pharma production comes from China, along with many other things.  I know someone in Russia recently who complained about not being able to get a necessary motor part for his car because of the break in China's supply lines.  It's everyone's problem, not just the USA's. 

Sure, is it partly due to out overall and gradual movement towards being too heavily reliant on China.  Sure, but that is not any specific person's fault.  However, only Trump decided to question this reliance on a large scale, and we are now finally seeing the consequences. 

And what is wrong with helping both men and women who cant get it on to get it on again?    Is not sex a healthy and beneficial part of life?  But anyway, regardless, I sincerely doubt the research and production that went into blue and yellow pills had any effect on the overall viability of the Pharma industry.  As a matter of fact, noting the profits that come from those blue and yellow pills, it only helped them.  And last I checked, the Pharma industry is one of the biggest industries in the country and is certainly self-sufficient.  The issue here is that they decided to concentrate their supply lines in China. 

The bloodied nose you describe from China in this instance is without cause.  They started this by being more concerned with the overall opinion of their one party instead of the actual reality of what was going, much like every socialist one-party regime.  The fact that they expect us to give into their propaganda is both nefarious and dangerous. 

Last, I dont care if the rest of the world is in love with the USA or not.  That is not our job to go around pleasing nations, and I would not expect anyone to do so for us.  Insofar as Breixt is concerned, the EU does not need Britain to leave to become weak.  They are doing that just fine on their own.

That the rest of the world can be as negligent as the USA regarding medical self-sufficiency in no way excuses America; in fact, as the world's richest state, it is even more worthy of blame for such ineptitude.

How on Earth can you simultaneously claim the American pharma industry is self-sufficient, and immediately follow that by declaring they depend on foreign supply lines? This is beginning to read like a post from the rubber man. You either are self-sufficient or you have dependency. You have stated both to be the case... there can be no grey areas to self-sufficiency; like virginity, it's an absolute.

Indeed it's a huge industry; in the past, GSK served this family well over many years.

If you insist in comparing China's political state with your own national political state, please explain the difference between Chinese denials and Trumpian ones, when the rest of your country was only too aware of the inevitability of spread? In one instance it's a blanket, state denial and in the other an individual's denial. Much as with climate change denial and its causes. A massive difference between your countries is that in China it's policy from little red books, whereas in yours, it's policy on the hoof out of twitter, scientific experts silenced or ignored in both cases. But don't think I am being superior here: Britain is running policy, as of a few days ago, on massive debt that it spent several iterations of Conservative rule trying to eliminate, so there you have us: the bluest of our blues now adopting the reddest of socialist solutions: visit the pawn shop.

:-)

[JoeKitchen]

Joe, is that what you meant to say? I thought you might want to say that you CAN move to American and become, without question, an American. (At least, it's my opinion that you can.)

I agree the Bernie Bros are nuts. They're the people I knew back in college who could see no wrong in Castro, the Sandinistas, etc., even Russia, although later, Pol Pot somewhat shut them up. But, on the whole, I don't think they're as bad as the Trumpers. Huge crowds of people chanting "Lock her up?" Trump's rallies distinctly resemble the Italian Fascist rallies of the 1930s, and attract the same kind of people. IMHO. No replies necessary.

A question I haven't seen asked: I wonder if the Chinese will restrict the eating of wild animals? This is the third or fourth disease in the past few years to make the jump from "bush meat" to humans. (SARS, MERS, Ebola.) Can you imagine what would have happened if any of those had happened to have the same ability to spread as COVID-19? MERS has something like a 30% mortality rate. We would have been piling bodies in the streets. I wonder if the Chinese have done anything about restricting it?   

Oops, what you wrote is what I meant, and corrected it. 

Insofar as eating wild animals, I have read they are trying to restrict this.  But there are a few problems here. 

One is cultural; how do you change the culture of an extremely large population especially when eating is necessary.  I was watching a documentary on Rhino poaching and someone made the point that there are more people in world who believe in the mythical powers of horn dust then Christians.  It's not easy to change the culture of that many people even when it comes to something unnecessary.  So with food, it would be incredibly hard. 

Second, much of the rural population in China is impoverished.  Being so, what other sources of protein do they have access to? 

Even in more urban areas, they have incredibly bad farming practices that puts different species in direct contact with each other in crammed conditions.  This creates the perfect situation for different virus to mutate and jump species.  At any farm I have been to here that has different types of animals, they are all separated by species. 

[John Camp]

That the rest of the world can be as negligent as the USA regarding medical self-sufficiency in no way excuses America; in fact, as the world's richest state, it is even more worthy of blame for such ineptitude.
<snip>
If you insist in comparing China's political state with your own national political state, please explain the difference between Chinese denials and Trumpian ones, when the rest of your country was only too aware of the inevitability of spread? In one instance it's a blanket, state denial and in the other an individual's denial. Much as with climate change denial and its causes. A massive difference between your countries is that in China it's policy from little red books, whereas in yours, it's policy on the hoof out of twitter, scientific experts silenced or ignored in both cases. But don't think I am being superior here: Britain is running policy, as of a few days ago, on massive debt that it spent several iterations of Conservative rule trying to eliminate, so there you have us: the bluest of our blues now adopting the reddest of socialist solutions: visit the pawn shop.

:-)

One big difference between the US and China is that nowhere in the world is the criticism of Trump and his administration as loud, persistent and ugly as it is in the US (as you can see from some folks, like me, on this forum.) And we do it without fear of retribution. And we may take Trump's job away from him, which would be a decision by the people, as opposed to a decision by his party, as it would be in the case of Xi, where the people have little voice.

[Rob C]

You're missing the fact that nearly every nation on earth is, at least partly, defined by ethnicity.  You cant move to Germany and actually be a German without being German.  You can't move to Japan and be Japanese without actually being Japanese.  Even if this is not completely true politically, it is by the way of our diction. 

There is no race that is American by any definition.  You can't move to America and become, without question, an American. 

Additionally, America is not simply a product of Europe.  It is the product of people who had the temerity to leave their own country for another unknown one, aka immigrants.  Although in Europe, you may have people with that same level of temerity, the concentration of people like this is higher.

Of course it's a product of the European gene pools! That you have a few native Americans that you spent your best early (?) efforts trying to drive into the swamps, up the mountains or into the seas doesn't indicate any great desire to assimilate or integrate... folks from south of the border, from north of the border, all of them have had a helluva tough time hanging on. Listen to some Cajun or Texan songs.

Actually, the "temerity" to leave Europe was often more a reality of getting chucked out: we invented the concept of modern exile, as we invented Australia, but I leave claims to the biblical one elsewhere.

Funnily enough, many Brits have suddenly become Spanish. Yes, you certainly can become anything you want to become if the country permits it.

[Raul_Rodriguez]

A question I haven't seen asked: I wonder if the Chinese will restrict the eating of wild animals? This is the third or fourth disease in the past few years to make the jump from "bush meat" to humans. (SARS, MERS, Ebola.) Can you imagine what would have happened if any of those had happened to have the same ability to spread as COVID-19? MERS has something like a 30% mortality rate. We would have been piling bodies in the streets. I wonder if the Chinese have done anything about restricting it?   

I saw a special, don't remember where, maybe on YouTube actually, dealing with this issue. I think the government has steeply increased jail time and fines for the illegal trade of endangered species like the pangolin, but that hasn't stopped the black market. It's a big cultural problem linked to showing their newly acquired fortunes (since none of this meat is cheap). They can't seem to stop wanting to eat every creature that roams the earth.

[JoeKitchen]

Of course it's a product of the European gene pools! That you have a few native Americans that you spent your best early (?) efforts trying to drive into the swamps, up the mountains or into the seas doesn't indicate any great desire to assimilate or integrate... folks from south of the border, from north of the border, all of them have had a helluva tough time hanging on. Listen to some Cajun or Texan songs.

Actually, the "temerity" to leave Europe was often more a reality of getting chucked out: we invented the concept of modern exile, as we invented Australia, but I leave claims to the biblical one elsewhere.

Funnily enough, many Brits have suddenly become Spanish. Yes, you certainly can become anything you want to become if the country permits it.

As a gene pool, maybe we are mostly European.  From a cultural perspective, especially when it comes to being risk adverse, we are not European. 

And last I checked, not many convicts were forcibly sent to the USA.  Nearly all of our emigrants came here voluntarily.  I cant speak for Australia, but I would assume the stereotype of it being a convict country is greatly over blown as well. 

Last, like I said, politically maybe you can became anything you want.  But will you actually be accepted as that?  How many pure blood Anglo-Saxons do you know that have become Spanish citizens are actually regarded as being really Spanish by their fully ethnically Spanish countrymen? 

I know many non-native Americans that I fully regard as Americans.  I think it is reasonable to say this is a big cultural difference between the USA (and perhaps Australia and Canada) then most other countries.  The simple fact that by definition there is no ethnic American or Australian or Canadian makes it easier on a language level to accept anyone as being one of those.  My point being, the melting pot in Europe may not be working so well, as you claim, but that in the USA, and other countries, we have an advantage of diction not actively working against it.

Now being considered a true Philadelphian without being born and raised in the city, that's another question.   

[JoeKitchen]

That the rest of the world can be as negligent as the USA regarding medical self-sufficiency in no way excuses America; in fact, as the world's richest state, it is even more worthy of blame for such ineptitude.

How on Earth can you simultaneously claim the American pharma industry is self-sufficient, and immediately follow that by declaring they depend on foreign supply lines? This is beginning to read like a post from the rubber man. You either are self-sufficient or you have dependency. You have stated both to be the case... there can be no grey areas to self-sufficiency; like virginity, it's an absolute.

Indeed it's a huge industry; in the past, GSK served this family well over many years.

If you insist in comparing China's political state with your own national political state, please explain the difference between Chinese denials and Trumpian ones, when the rest of your country was only too aware of the inevitability of spread? In one instance it's a blanket, state denial and in the other an individual's denial. Much as with climate change denial and its causes. A massive difference between your countries is that in China it's policy from little red books, whereas in yours, it's policy on the hoof out of twitter, scientific experts silenced or ignored in both cases. But don't think I am being superior here: Britain is running policy, as of a few days ago, on massive debt that it spent several iterations of Conservative rule trying to eliminate, so there you have us: the bluest of our blues now adopting the reddest of socialist solutions: visit the pawn shop.

:-)

Rob, by your definition of self-sufficiency, no company or industry is the world then is.  My definition of self-sufficiency is that the company can operate without the need for any outside funds that do not come from sales over the long term, and has nothing to do with getting necessary sources from other countries.  Simply put, their revenues are higher then their costs, thus producing profits.  By that definition, Pharma is one of the most self-sufficient industries, and they pay damn well for photography. 

Insofar as your comparison between China politics vs Trump's, note James' post.  I may be a republican, but I agree with his main point of our freedom vs. China's repression. 

[Rob C]

1. Rob, by your definition of self-sufficiency, no company or industry is the world then is.  2. My definition of self-sufficiency is that the company can operate without the need for any outside funds that do not come from sales over the long term, and has nothing to do with getting necessary sources from other countries.  3. Simply put, their revenues are higher then their costs, thus producing profits. By that definition, Pharma is one of the most self-sufficient industries, and they pay damn well for photography. 

4. Insofar as your comparison between China politics vs Trump's, note James' post.  I may be a republican, but I agree with his main point of our freedom vs. China's repression.

1. Exactly.

2. So why do they need a friendly bank manager or dozen?

3. That simply means they are not running at a loss.

4. That's not the point, whether one system is more "free" than the other; the point is that both of them instinctively lied and went into immediate denial. Both can be painted black.

[Robert Roaldi]

I saw a special, don't remember where, maybe on YouTube actually, dealing with this issue. I think the government has steeply increased jail time and fines for the illegal trade of endangered species like the pangolin, but that hasn't stopped the black market. It's a big cultural problem linked to showing their newly acquired fortunes (since none of this meat is cheap). They can't seem to stop wanting to eat every creature that roams the earth.

I guess this should really be over on the other thread about COVID-19 but I saw this NPR report, https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/01/31/800975655/why-theyre-called-wet-markets-and-what-health-risks-they-might-pose about so-called "wet" markets.

And I also saw an online video, may have been this one from CNN https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/asia/china-coronavirus-wildlife-consumption-ban-intl-hnk/index.html, but I'm not sure. I no longer have the original link.

The upshot is that wild meat trade has been stopped then restarted in the past, not clear to me if it is actually stopped now.

[Robert Roaldi]

1. Exactly.

2. So why do they need a friendly bank manager or dozen?

3. That simply means they are not running at a loss.

4. That's not the point, whether one system is more "free" than the other; the point is that both of them instinctively lied and went into immediate denial. Both can be painted black.

They all rely on good highways, a legal system that works, air traffic regulations, police forces that actually go after crooks, etc. To a greater or lesser extent, these "externalities" are paid for by someone other than the companies themselves. Taxpayers end up picking up the cost of environmental clean-up in many localities because no one can track down the commercial entities that were required to clean up after themselves in the first, sometimes because enforcement was reduced because of inadequate public budgets. Corporate lobbying in these administrations is often implicated. None of this is news.

Here in Canada we stopped subsidizing the rail system a while back (or I should say, we were told that they stopped subsidizing them but who knows to what extent), so now our highways are clogged with trucks 24/7, from which we all derive both benefits and huge headaches, and they are not built and maintained by the sales of companies' goods and services, although in part they are because trucking companies pay highway fees. Financial industries benefit from the face that profits derived from capital markets are taxed at a lower rate than income earned in labour markets. In the case of the 2008 crash, some ill thought out deregulation helped.

Society is not a support system for commerce; free market commerce and its governing rules are something the culture created to provide goods and services for us. We often seem to forget who is primal in the arrangement.
 

[JoeKitchen]

1. Exactly.

2. So why do they need a friendly bank manager or dozen?

3. That simply means they are not running at a loss.

4. That's not the point, whether one system is more "free" than the other; the point is that both of them instinctively lied and went into immediate denial. Both can be painted black.

1.  Differences of opinion I guess. 

2.  Becuase sometimes you need credit to accomplish things.  Do you disagree?  Do you think we should do everything with cash then?  Did you buy your house with cash, no mortgage? 

3.  Yep, which pretty much mean profits. 

4.  That is the point.  Aside from full out revolutions, one-party regimes are not accountable.  Here in the USA, our politicians are accountable every 4, or 6, years. 

[Rob C]

1.  Differences of opinion I guess. 

2.  Becuase sometimes you need credit to accomplish things.  Do you disagree?  Do you think we should do everything with cash then?  Did you buy your house with cash, no mortgage? 

3.  Yep, which pretty much mean profits. 

4.  That is the point.  Aside from full out revolutions, one-party regimes are not accountable.  Here in the USA, our politicians are accountable every 4, or 6, years.

2. If self-sufficient, of course I would buy by cash; credit always costs you more: it's why banks lend. Yes, I bought my present apartment without a mortgage back in '81.

4. No, that's notthe point: the point was and remains that both systems, yours and China's, to the level of daily practice, both lie and go into denial about anything that doesn't suit their propaganda. It matters not, in this context (which is coronavirus), whether one system is easier or more difficult to replace: their behaviour in this instance is identical.

Rob

P.S.

I really must get off this office chair and retreat to the sofa and the iPad and watch some mind-numbing nonsense for an hour or two; at the moment, that is being taken care of by Justified, which is actually quite funny at times. The pilot show was pretty much an enjoyable action event, but as the first series progresses, more and more is it becoming a spoof.

;-)

[Craig Lamson]

P.S.

I really must get off this office chair and retreat to the sofa and the iPad and watch some mind-numbing nonsense for an hour or two; at the moment, that is being taken care of by Justified, which is actually quite funny at times. The pilot show was pretty much an enjoyable action event, but as the first series progresses, more and more is it becoming a spoof.

;-)

Try Breaking Bad.   I had zero desire to watch but a binge came on recently and my wife wanted to see what it was about.  So we watched, and could’nt stop.  Weird premise.  Superb acting and storyline.  Glad I watched in the end.

[Rob C]

Try Breaking Bad.   I had zero desire to watch but a binge came on recently and my wife wanted to see what it was about.  So we watched, and could’nt stop.  Weird premise.  Superb acting and storyline.  Glad I watched in the end.

I have that series, Craig, but after a few episodes I found that I could not gel with the characters at all. The rest of the family thought it wonderful, but I couldn't get into their mindset with it.

I enjoy the Italian Montalbano and Gomorrah quite alot, as well as the French duo Engrenages and Braquo; House, of course. The Shield was quite a fast-paced watch too. Of the Americans, I think I liked Sopranos the most.

Rob

[KLaban]

This thread, TV, DVD, Steaming, Boxed Sets... could help those in self isolation.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I have that series, Craig, but after a few episodes I found that I could not gel with the characters at all...

That isn't too surprising for those with a strong anti-American sentiment. The series relies heavily on American cultural symbols, for which you need to either live there, or, as a minimum, have some knowledge and affinity toward American way of life.

[Rob C]

That isn't too surprising for those with a strong anti-American sentiment. The series relies heavily on American cultural symbols, for which you need to either live there, or, as a minimum, have some knowledge and affinity toward American way of life.

Then why on Earth would I not be able to get into it?

Perhaps you don't quite get the difference between being anti-something, and liking something - but not being blind to its many flaws? You are presenting life as binary, as either black or white; it clearly is not.

For myself, living part of my early life in India, I was exposed to far more Americana than Raj; we drove in V8 Fords, not toy Brit cars of the period; I saw more Studebakers, Hudsons, Buicks, Pontiacs, Chevrolets, Chryslers and DeSotos than Triumphs or Jaguars (can't remember a single one of those) or Rileys, though one poor guy had a Morris. The news and movie magazines were all American ones as was most the music coming over Radio Ceylon, the reincarnation of Radio SEAC. I loved all of that and it influenced me greatly. Hollywood... some of us in boarding school ran the risk of getting our asses caned for sneaking out to go to the movies and watch - that need to sneak out a result of the darker side of US and Australian life: radical Christianity and its missionaries, a travesty of the God they presented as one of love but that they cloaked in fire, brimstone and fear. New generations of those cats are alive and flourishing in America and American politics.

I remember once writing here that I thought Americans had a wonderful country - not to let it disappear. Perhaps it has lost that fight, or at least, this round.

Rob