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Author Topic: After The Acquittal  (Read 14233 times)

Manoli

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2020, 07:04:54 pm »

For the record, I deleted my post well before Slobodan’s #14 piece.
Neither the time nor the inclination ...

For Slobodan:
Economist: Feb 6th 2020, Lexington: Trump Unbound

“ ... Yet if his record were half as good as his defenders say, why does he misrepresent it so extremely? He claims endless things that are demonstrably false ...  If his supporters were primarily drawn to Mr Trump by his record, they might be expected to discern the facts from the nonsense; most know he is not honest. Yet, for the sake of political argument at least, they seem to accept whatever he claims... “

Otherwise known as propaganda, relentlessly disseminated.
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Manoli

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2020, 07:08:37 pm »

Today, there is no method, no theoretical underpinning, no apparatus to spread it.

Now, you’re taking the Michael ...

Edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss?wprov=sfti1
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 07:25:03 pm by Manoli »
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Chris Kern

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2020, 08:23:46 pm »

Now this is gettin serious and out of hand.

Like most of the political centric posts in the Coffee Corner on a site that was once about photography. Easy to solve all this serious, out of hand ridiculous and contemptible behavior from all sides but the power’s to be, and many members here can’t fathom using LuLa forums to discuss all things Photography . . .

Well, of course that's one solution to the over-the-top arguments, but I think this thread―as well as other "tediously repetitive" political ones―serves a purpose by exposing some of us (I'm speaking for myself here) to opinions of individuals who we have come to respect in a technical context but whose views in other realms are quite different from ours.

I quite literally have no personal contact with Trump defenders: I spend most of my time in Maryland and the District of Columbia―not exactly Trump country.  Nor, for that matter, with populists on the left who support Bernie Sanders.  These both represent significant political constituencies in the United States.  Or maybe one overlapping constituency, similar in their anger but with differing policy proposals.  And what happens here affects the entire world, for better or worse―so I'm interested to read what people in other countries think; LuLa is an international forum.  (Although I wish there was more representation from Latin America, Africa, and East and South Asia.)

So I would encourage Jeremy and the site maintainers to continue to enforce some level of decorum, mutual respect, and just plain sanity, while allowing the arguments to continue.

In a relatively few months, the situation here in the States will be resolved one way or the other.  But the economic and social forces that have created the populist movements that are sweeping through so many industrial countries are not likely to disappear anytime soon―and, frankly, I find the debate about them here at least as enlightening as Canon v. Nikon or Fuji v. Sony.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 11:32:39 pm by Chris Kern »
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LesPalenik

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2020, 01:07:04 am »

Ok, but there is no comparison in methods either. Today, there is no method, no theoretical underpinning, no apparatus to spread it. You et al are forgetting that both Nazis and Soviets were one-party systems with no opposition, and a vast government apparatus to spread and control propaganda. And harsh measures for dissent.

Firing Alex Vindman for telling the truth, his brother for being Alex's brother, and vilifying Romney seems also harsh.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2020, 04:01:41 am »

Jeremy - while I might not agree with the comparison of one in hindsight to the current outcome yet to be determined, and while I would definitely agree that what the current administration has done does not warrant a comparison to the Holocaust (or that anything the previous administration or current left-wing candidates propose equates to Stalinist), the comparison of the media manipulation, gaslighting, and disinformation to Goebbels' pre-war tactics is by no means "beneath contempt" on an academic level.

If there had been any analysis, I might be inclined to agree; but there wasn't. There was simply the usual "its just like the Nazis" allegation, which serves only to grant to one party the high moral ground (at least in his own eyes) and irredeemably to taint with fascism anyone arguing to the contrary. It aims to shut down debate. The brain-dead Left has been doing it in the UK for years. It's tiresome.

Jeremy, I am aware of the sensitive use of my reference, and now I regret for using it.

Thank you.

Jeremy
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2020, 04:52:01 am »

Firing Alex Vindman for telling the truth, his brother for being Alex's brother, and vilifying Romney seems also harsh.

You can’t be serious, Les. You of all people should have understood, without me explaining further, what harsh meant in Soviet times: gulag, Siberia, loss of life. None of that happened above. Not even remotely similar. Soldiers returned to their previous posts. Romney is still freely blabbering. The President has the right to choose his team. Which means hiring and firing. You can’t seriously expect him to work with a snitch and someone with a persuasion that his holy duty is to take down the President of the United States because he disagrees with him politically.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2020, 04:59:30 am »

... So I would encourage Jeremy and the site maintainers to continue to enforce some level of decorum, mutual respect, and just plain sanity, while allowing the arguments to continue...

+1

P.S. I hope my post wasn’t understood as a request to shut down the thread or political debates, or to ban certain members. It was rather an appeal to our forum friends to refrain from such over-the-top rhetoric.

LesPalenik

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2020, 07:27:30 am »

You can’t be serious, Les. You of all people should have understood, without me explaining further, what harsh meant in Soviet times: gulag, Siberia, loss of life. None of that happened above. Not even remotely similar. Soldiers returned to their previous posts. Romney is still freely blabbering. The President has the right to choose his team. Which means hiring and firing. You can’t seriously expect him to work with a snitch and someone with a persuasion that his holy duty is to take down the President of the United States because he disagrees with him politically.

We see it from a different angle, Slobodan. However, in contrast to the aforementioned individuals, we were able to express our opinions without any serious repercussions and that's a good thing.
I still think that editing that State Of Union video in a way they did it, was more unethical than cloning out a branch or can of Coke from a photo.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2020, 07:55:12 am »

You can’t be serious, Les. You of all people should have understood, without me explaining further, what harsh meant in Soviet times: gulag, Siberia, loss of life. None of that happened above.

Amazing that someone with your experience doesn't recognize (or deliberately down-plays) the fact that things gradually get out of hand. We're not talking about a coup. It all starts with small steps/precedents, but once stepped on the slippery slope of moral/legal decline, things will gradually get worse, and the extreme examples that were referenced do not paint a happy perspective, certainly not a situation one would strive for.

Quote
The President has the right to choose his team. Which means hiring and firing.

Yes, and one would hope that those decisions are well-informed, and for the benefit of the USA. Not for personal gain.

Quote
You can’t seriously expect him to work with a snitch and someone with a persuasion that his holy duty is to take down the President of the United States because he disagrees with him politically.

Who are you referring to???

Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, who did his duty when he observed questionable behavior that put the safety of the USA at risk, or when he was called by Congress to testify?

His brother? A snitch? What on earth did he do wrong, other than being the brother of?

Ambassador Sondland, who was called by Congress to testify, and had to change his earlier untenable testimony to avoid the legal consequences?

Ukraine ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, who had to abandon her post within a day, without knowing the reasons, and who was called by Congress to testify?

Chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, John Bolton, someone else?

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James Clark

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2020, 08:22:12 am »

If there had been any analysis, I might be inclined to agree; but there wasn't. There was simply the usual "its just like the Nazis" allegation, which serves only to grant to one party the high moral ground (at least in his own eyes) and irredeemably to taint with fascism anyone arguing to the contrary. It aims to shut down debate. The brain-dead Left has been doing it in the UK for years. It's tiresome

Jeremy

Et tu, Jeremy?  ;)
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2020, 08:53:26 am »

+1

P.S. I hope my post wasn’t understood as a request to shut down the thread or political debates, or to ban certain members. It was rather an appeal to our forum friends to refrain from such over-the-top rhetoric.

Good. I'm glad we won't expect any more warnings about the muslim peril from you or references to a presidential candidates as Mary Buttplug?  ;)
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Robert

Robert Roaldi

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2020, 08:57:21 am »

Which means hiring and firing. You can’t seriously expect him to work with a snitch and someone with a persuasion that his holy duty is to take down the President of the United States because he disagrees with him politically.

Snitch? What is this, the Mob?

The took an oath to the country and the constitution, not to Trump. Now I'll grant you that Trump can fire him if he wants to, but please stop boring us with silly spin.
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petermfiore

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2020, 09:01:11 am »

Snitch? What is this, the Mob?

The took an oath to the country and the constitution, not to Trump. Now I'll grant you that Trump can fire him if he wants to, but please stop boring us with silly spin.

If snitch were changed to a disloyal Individual make it better?

Peter

RSL

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2020, 09:11:00 am »

What is this, the Mob?

Worse, Robert. It's a political party.
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texshooter

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2020, 10:01:42 am »

When an award is offered for information leading to the capture of a suspected criminal,  it is generally granted only if and when the criminal is tried and convicted.

Trump was aquitted, hence no award (praise) should be granted to the informant.  Meaning,, Alex Vindman is no whistleblower. He is a snitch spy leaker subversive saboteur  traitor.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 10:18:09 am by texshooter »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2020, 10:41:18 am »

If snitch were changed to a disloyal Individual make it better?

Disloyal to whom, or what?

The constitution, a coequal branch of government (Congress), US military interests, the people of the USA, etc.?

Or "le Roi c'est moi'' Trump?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 10:46:42 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2020, 10:52:17 am »

When an award is offered for information leading to the capture of a suspected criminal,  it is generally granted only if and when the criminal is tried and convicted.

Trump was aquitted, hence no award (praise) should be granted to the informant.  Meaning,, Alex Vindman is no whistleblower. He is a snitch spy leaker subversive saboteur  traitor.



That's a bit of a stretch, I think. Did he fabricate evidence or did he just state what he heard or saw? If he was doing his duty then he is none of those things you stated. Your bias is showing.
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Robert

Robert Roaldi

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2020, 10:52:46 am »

Worse, Robert. It's a political party.

You make a good point.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2020, 10:58:18 am »

That's a bit of a stretch, I think. Did he fabricate evidence or did he just state what he heard or saw?...

Nothing to fabricate, as there was no evidence... not even what he heard or saw, but just his opinion.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: After The Acquital
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2020, 11:30:16 am »

Nothing to fabricate, as there was no evidence... not even what he heard or saw, but just his opinion.

Huh, are you of the mistaken opinion that hearing Trump say what he did is hearsay, or something else?
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