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Author Topic: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100  (Read 7082 times)

BJL

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Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« on: February 07, 2020, 08:48:01 pm »

A bit of news that I missed earlier from Fuifilm's "X Summit 2020" video presentation (I find video a painfully slow and inconvenient way to receive most sorts of information; a plain old web page with text and stills would vastly better): Fujifilm has announced plans to add a 400MP pixel shifting mode to the GFX 100, using the IBIS system:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/7648446596/fujifilm-says-new-400mp-pixel-shift-mode-is-coming-to-its-gfx-100-camera-system
If the lenses (current or forthcoming) can indeed sustain this resolution, this seems like further pressure on the larger format 645 film SLR derived systems to adapt to an even more extreme, narrow, high-end niche or else risk fading away as current users and equipment retire.

(In situations where the multiple frames needed for this can be taken, DR can presumably be enhanced by combining even more frames, nullifying the DR advantage that larger sensors have so far for single-shot photography.)
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Paul2660

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2020, 07:53:45 am »

Fuji first mentioned this long before when the GFX100 was still on the development board, then when the camera was close to release, decided to bring the camera to market without this feature. 

Glad to see it's back on the board, but per the video you mention and some other websites, there is no mention of when it will be made available. 

I have no need for 400MP output, but would more welcome a feature like Phase One has on the 4150 frame averaging.  If the pixel shift mode enhances DR that would be a benefit.  I am sure it will require a tripod and subject movement will be limited.  It will also take a very superb raw conversion.  LR/ACR's conversion for the Pentax K1 was terrible and never improved upon (Abode's typical one and done approach).  Since Phase One is now formally supporting the GFX cameras I hope that Capture One will support the pixel shift images (C1 never supported the Pentax K1 pixel shift).  Pentax's Pixel shift was different in that it did not increase resolution 4x, but instead gave increased details and much better signal noise/DR, vastly cleaner images.

Personally I had hoped for a improvement in firmware for the AF on the camera as I find it's lacking in low light/low contrast situations, similar to the 50s and other Fuji X series cameras I have used.

Paul C
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BJL

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2020, 09:36:15 am »

Paul, yes the timeline is a definite “eventually”; which will we see first, this or the Canon R body with 8K video?!

My guess is that this is mainly for the very special niche of documenting flat art works, which is what Hasselblad markets its 400MP pixel shifting backs for. By my reckoning, once the aperture is large enough to avoiding overwhelming diffraction effects, the DOF when viewing the image large enough to see that fine detail would be less than with an f/1 image in 35mm format viewed “normally” (viewing distance comparable to image size) That’s why I said _flat_ art—no sculptures!
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2020, 11:23:38 am »

Paul, yes the timeline is a definite “eventually”; which will we see first, this or the Canon R body with 8K video?!

My guess is that this is mainly for the very special niche of documenting flat art works, which is what Hasselblad markets its 400MP pixel shifting backs for. By my reckoning, once the aperture is large enough to avoiding overwhelming diffraction effects, the DOF when viewing the image large enough to see that fine detail would be less than with an f/1 image in 35mm format viewed “normally” (viewing distance comparable to image size) That’s why I said _flat_ art—no sculptures!

With a 3.76um-pitch Bayer sensor and a diffraction-limited lens, you need to stop down to between f/11 and f/16 to avoid aliasing artifacts. 16-shot pixel shift would drop that to about f/5.6.

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/balancing-real-and-fake-detail-part-2/

Jim

BJL

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400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100: DOF, and focus stacking
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2020, 12:30:42 pm »

With a 3.76um-pitch Bayer sensor and a diffraction-limited lens, you need to stop down to between f/11 and f/16 to avoid aliasing artifacts. 16-shot pixel shift would drop that to about f/5.6.

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/balancing-real-and-fake-detail-part-2/

Jim
That sounds about right, though I was talking about choosing apertures to avoid significant loss of detail to diffraction (about 2 to 3 times pixel pitch, so f/8 to f/11 for this example) whereas you are aiming at some deliberate diffraction softening to avoid aliasing, and so going about one stop smaller. But note that my DOF description used "equivalent f-stops", to allow fo the fact that to see the increase in resolution one will do something like print at the same PPI and view from the same distance (giving the same "angular resolution"), so with greater enlargement and thus stronger OOF effects and less of the image appearing sharp: decreased perceived DOF.

In relative terms, any doubling of linear resolution like 100->400MP reduces the diffraction-related aperture ratio threshold by a factor of two, so doubles CoC size on the sensor, which makes each CoC four times as large relative to the pixels. Then at equal PPI display, each CoC is four times as big, giving 1/4 the DOF, or "four stops less DOF" in my comparisons to what one sees at "normal viewing angle". So f/5.6 sounds sort of OK if you think about what one sees from a normal viewing angle, but that way of viewing is only good for seeing about 10-16MP worth of detail, so seeing what 400MP reveals requires at least 5X more enlargement and reduces DOF to what on would "normally" see at f/1.1.

(A former participant in these forums argued more stringently for a "true DOF" measure based on CoC no larger than pixel pitch, or twice pixel pitch, or something like that, since anything beyond that is visibly OOF if you look closely enough; I am a bit more flexible about viewing options!)

As indirect evidence, look at the various "giga-pixel" plus images; when done without focus stacking, the scenes all seem chosen to consist only of distant subjects so that hyperfocal focusing can keep it at all sharp.


But then there is focus stacking! There is an impressive result from that in this Hasselblad promotional site: https://www.hasselblad.com/stories/goran-liljeberg--exploring-hasselblad-400mp-multi-shot/
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 12:37:11 pm by BJL »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100: DOF, and focus stacking
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2020, 02:40:30 pm »

That sounds about right, though I was talking about choosing apertures to avoid significant loss of detail to diffraction (about 2 to 3 times pixel pitch, so f/8 to f/11 for this example) whereas you are aiming at some deliberate diffraction softening to avoid aliasing, and so going about one stop smaller. But note that my DOF description used "equivalent f-stops", to allow fo the fact that to see the increase in resolution one will do something like print at the same PPI and view from the same distance (giving the same "angular resolution"), so with greater enlargement and thus stronger OOF effects and less of the image appearing sharp: decreased perceived DOF.

In relative terms, any doubling of linear resolution like 100->400MP reduces the diffraction-related aperture ratio threshold by a factor of two, so doubles CoC size on the sensor, which makes each CoC four times as large relative to the pixels. Then at equal PPI display, each CoC is four times as big, giving 1/4 the DOF, or "four stops less DOF" in my comparisons to what one sees at "normal viewing angle". So f/5.6 sounds sort of OK if you think about what one sees from a normal viewing angle, but that way of viewing is only good for seeing about 10-16MP worth of detail, so seeing what 400MP reveals requires at least 5X more enlargement and reduces DOF to what on would "normally" see at f/1.1.

(A former participant in these forums argued more stringently for a "true DOF" measure based on CoC no larger than pixel pitch, or twice pixel pitch, or something like that, since anything beyond that is visibly OOF if you look closely enough; I am a bit more flexible about viewing options!)


In my mind, the purpose of pixel shifting is not to get sharper images (pixel shift does not reduce the size of the sampling aperture), but to reduce aliasing.

Jim

BJL

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Re: 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100: DOF, and focus stacking
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2020, 08:54:56 pm »

In my mind, the purpose of pixel shifting is not to get sharper images (pixel shift does not reduce the size of the sampling aperture), but to reduce aliasing.

Jim
Good point: even if some use pixel-shift multi-shot for higher resolution (Hasselblad advertises that as one benefit), another use is improving color accuracy and reducing aliasing, while still intending to print an view at the same size as with 100MP single shot files. Also, I have not seen any camera maker claiming that its multi-shot mode fully doubles the linear resolution, so my judging DOF by the standard of doubling linear print size is unfair. Going back to viewing no larger than for 100MP single-shot mode, diffraction-limited DOF gains back a factor of four to a distinctly more widely ueful "f/4 equivalent" or so (and akin to what one would see with about f/3 in 35mm format.)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 09:20:48 pm by BJL »
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bbrantley

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2020, 08:57:22 pm »

As someone who almost exclusively shoots static, planar abstracts from a tripod, I welcome the multishot/"oversampling" approach that hopefully will come in a firmware update.

Color detail and aliasing are remarkably improved on the Hasselblad MS implementation.  I assume it will be a similar leap on GFX100.

I should have put "planar" in quotation marks above, because in the real world stuff is almost never that flat.  Focus stacking dramatically expands the shooting envelope for what I do, too.

I'm imagining how slow my computer will crawl when we can bring both of these tools to bear at the same time!
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Jim Kasson

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Re: 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100: DOF, and focus stacking
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2020, 11:33:01 pm »

Also, I have not seen any camera maker claiming that its multi-shot mode fully doubles the linear resolution...

And that's for a good reason. The slanted edge MTF is determined by pixel aperture, not pixel pitch.

Jim

petermfiore

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2020, 07:13:18 am »

As someone who almost exclusively shoots static, planar abstracts from a tripod, I welcome the multishot/"oversampling" approach that hopefully will come in a firmware update.

Seriously?

Jim Kasson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2020, 10:26:26 am »

Seriously?

I don't understand your point.

petermfiore

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2020, 11:43:05 am »

I don't understand your point.


Free?  If Free, that would be amazing...
Peter

Doug Peterson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2020, 01:18:49 pm »

Up front bias disclosure: My company (Digital Transitions) chooses to sell cameras (Phase One) that do not do pixel shifting and chooses not to sell cameras (e.g. Sinar, Hasselblad, Fuji) that do. So I'm obviously biased. But I also have quite a lot of experience working with clients to evaluate against these options.

On Color Accuracy: Multishot does not improve color accuracy*

Resolution: Multishot can improve resolution but the subject and camera must be perfectly static, and the lens and aperture must be able to resolve the subject at the small aperture values required. The severity of those constraints increase with the resolution being discussed. For 50mp sensors it was already very challenging to use pixel shifting successfully. For 100mp sensors those constraints are very very considerable.

Aliasing: Multishot will almost always reduce aliasing (which is good), but can also introduce significant pixel-level artifacts that can be difficult to detect without reviewing every image at every part of that image at 100%.

If using multishot in a workflow environment (e.g. trying to get a certain amount of work done in a certain amount of time) it's also notable that multishot captures requires more capture time, more processing time, more pops of the flash (if using strobe), more shutter actuations (if using a mechanical shutter), reduces raw compatibility, and reduces the number of viable shooting environments. And while it does not explicitly prevent you from using other techniques like focus stacking, exposure bracketing, frame averaging, or stitching, it does significantly increase the number of frames required to accomplish them.

I'm biased, so I get that my opinion here is of limited value. But I would very strongly urge anyone considering a multishot solution (new or used, current or old, fuji hassy or sinar) to test it before pulling the trigger. It isn't coincidence that the vast majority of US museums, libraries, and archives have left multishot platforms for single-shot platforms over the last decade (before which they were a very significant presence). And when you make that comparison please make sure you're not just comparing the multishot mode of a camera to it's own single-shot mode; many of the multishot cameras came with raw processors with very mediocre single-shot raw processing algorithms. That, at least, will not be a problem for the GFX which ships with the very capable algorithms in Capture One for single shot. Though, I suspect you'll need a separate app to do multishot with the GFX, but I don't claim inside knowledge on that.

*It would, in theory, improve the pixel level color accuracy of subject matter that is 1) totally random 2) exactly one pixel in size and 3) perfectly sharply rendered and 4) falls exactly on the pixel grid, not between. That is not a scenario you'll find in real-world photography.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 01:24:27 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2020, 02:05:45 pm »


Free?  If Free, that would be amazing...
Peter

Fuji has introduced other things to the GFX line that were extremely useful as free firmware updates. Focus bracketing is the example that comes to mind.

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2020, 02:09:17 pm »

Up front bias disclosure: My company (Digital Transitions) chooses to sell cameras (Phase One) that do not do pixel shifting and chooses not to sell cameras (e.g. Sinar, Hasselblad, Fuji) that do. So I'm obviously biased. But I also have quite a lot of experience working with clients to evaluate against these options.

On Color Accuracy: Multishot does not improve color accuracy*

Resolution: Multishot can improve resolution but the subject and camera must be perfectly static, and the lens and aperture must be able to resolve the subject at the small aperture values required. The severity of those constraints increase with the resolution being discussed. For 50mp sensors it was already very challenging to use pixel shifting successfully. For 100mp sensors those constraints are very very considerable.

Aliasing: Multishot will almost always reduce aliasing (which is good), but can also introduce significant pixel-level artifacts that can be difficult to detect without reviewing every image at every part of that image at 100%.

If using multishot in a workflow environment (e.g. trying to get a certain amount of work done in a certain amount of time) it's also notable that multishot captures requires more capture time, more processing time, more pops of the flash (if using strobe), more shutter actuations (if using a mechanical shutter), reduces raw compatibility, and reduces the number of viable shooting environments. And while it does not explicitly prevent you from using other techniques like focus stacking, exposure bracketing, frame averaging, or stitching, it does significantly increase the number of frames required to accomplish them.

I'm biased, so I get that my opinion here is of limited value. But I would very strongly urge anyone considering a multishot solution (new or used, current or old, fuji hassy or sinar) to test it before pulling the trigger. It isn't coincidence that the vast majority of US museums, libraries, and archives have left multishot platforms for single-shot platforms over the last decade (before which they were a very significant presence). And when you make that comparison please make sure you're not just comparing the multishot mode of a camera to it's own single-shot mode; many of the multishot cameras came with raw processors with very mediocre single-shot raw processing algorithms. That, at least, will not be a problem for the GFX which ships with the very capable algorithms in Capture One for single shot. Though, I suspect you'll need a separate app to do multishot with the GFX, but I don't claim inside knowledge on that.

*It would, in theory, improve the pixel level color accuracy of subject matter that is 1) totally random 2) exactly one pixel in size and 3) perfectly sharply rendered and 4) falls exactly on the pixel grid, not between. That is not a scenario you'll find in real-world photography.

Doug, pixel shift does increase color accuracy of high-spatial frequency information by reducing (and in my experience eliminating) false color Bayer demosaicing artifacts. I agree that, because of the vibration and subject motion constraints, it has limited utility.  It's great for static fabric shots.

petermfiore

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2020, 02:11:55 pm »

Fuji has introduced other things to the GFX line that were extremely useful as free firmware updates. Focus bracketing is the example that comes to mind.

You have to admit that hi-res Is a lot more than an update. That's a major selling point. I would be most pleasantly surprised if Fuji gave that away.

Peter

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2020, 03:51:55 pm »

You have to admit that hi-res Is a lot more than an update. That's a major selling point.

So was focus bracketing. And IMHO, that's even more useful.

petermfiore

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2020, 03:59:29 pm »

So was focus bracketing. And IMHO, that's even more useful.

I hope that they do Hi-res with an update. Many will smile...

Peter

Paul2660

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2020, 05:20:21 pm »

In the past, all such upgrades for features from Fuji have come with firmware, as Fuji mentioned the pixel shift solution from day on, it's safe to assume the feature will not be a added cost, as I can think of no feature addition in the past where Fuji charged.

Paul C
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Paul2660

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2020, 05:32:21 pm »

Up front bias disclosure: My company (Digital Transitions) chooses to sell cameras (Phase One) that do not do pixel shifting and chooses not to sell cameras (e.g. Sinar, Hasselblad, Fuji) that do. So I'm obviously biased. But I also have quite a lot of experience working with clients to evaluate against these options.

On Color Accuracy: Multishot does not improve color accuracy*

Resolution: Multishot can improve resolution but the subject and camera must be perfectly static, and the lens and aperture must be able to resolve the subject at the small aperture values required. The severity of those constraints increase with the resolution being discussed. For 50mp sensors it was already very challenging to use pixel shifting successfully. For 100mp sensors those constraints are very very considerable.

Aliasing: Multishot will almost always reduce aliasing (which is good), but can also introduce significant pixel-level artifacts that can be difficult to detect without reviewing every image at every part of that image at 100%.

If using multishot in a workflow environment (e.g. trying to get a certain amount of work done in a certain amount of time) it's also notable that multishot captures requires more capture time, more processing time, more pops of the flash (if using strobe), more shutter actuations (if using a mechanical shutter), reduces raw compatibility, and reduces the number of viable shooting environments. And while it does not explicitly prevent you from using other techniques like focus stacking, exposure bracketing, frame averaging, or stitching, it does significantly increase the number of frames required to accomplish them.

I'm biased, so I get that my opinion here is of limited value. But I would very strongly urge anyone considering a multishot solution (new or used, current or old, fuji hassy or sinar) to test it before pulling the trigger. It isn't coincidence that the vast majority of US museums, libraries, and archives have left multishot platforms for single-shot platforms over the last decade (before which they were a very significant presence). And when you make that comparison please make sure you're not just comparing the multishot mode of a camera to it's own single-shot mode; many of the multishot cameras came with raw processors with very mediocre single-shot raw processing algorithms. That, at least, will not be a problem for the GFX which ships with the very capable algorithms in Capture One for single shot. Though, I suspect you'll need a separate app to do multishot with the GFX, but I don't claim inside knowledge on that.

*It would, in theory, improve the pixel level color accuracy of subject matter that is 1) totally random 2) exactly one pixel in size and 3) perfectly sharply rendered and 4) falls exactly on the pixel grid, not between. That is not a scenario you'll find in real-world photography.

Doug, all good points.

Note, that FA on Phase one can't tolerate any movement either, and needs a totally static camera solution.

As for the Fuji and Pixel shift, your points are all well taken, and I agree that the key will be how it's implemented.  If Fuji works out the solution in camera, and saves are a raw as the Olympus cameras do, I feel it could work very well, where as if Fuji takes the Son approach where you take the four shots and then have to open them in a Sony piece of software then save as a dog, I don't feel it will work as well.  Also I would hope since currently Phase One/Capture One claim to have full support for the GFX camera, that when Fuji implements it, if it's a solution where the image is saved in camera, that C1 will eventually support it.   Capture One has an excellent raw conversion for the existing GFX files, so I have faith that Capture One will work well on the pixel shift images.

As to your points on limitations, as a landscape shooter, I can think of many locations where wind would not be an issues (Monument Valley, Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon, Any shot of a Colorado 14 foot peak) all come to mind.  In my location, wind would be a factor for sure but I would still want to try it as I use FA in a similar work flow.  FA can't tolerate movement, but there are many times I can combine parts of a shot in post. 

Pixel shift on the K1 did not increase resolution, but did dramatically increase details, dynamic range and overall image quality.  The problem with the K1 pixel shift was terrible raw support from both Adobe and Capture One.  Capture One never supported it (what a shame) and the Adobe one and done was terrible.  Where as many other software companies, with a lot less money and size were able to come up with excellent solutions that did allow for movement (iridient, Sliky Pix and Raw Therapee all do a great job).

I would hope that with the upcoming Fuji solution, the overall image quality will be improved, and dynamic range possibly improved as with Pentax.   I have no issues with the need for a static camera as I tend to use a tripod most of the time. 

Overall, for a 10k camera, if Fuji comes out with this at no additional change, it's still a great return on investment for any photographer using the camera.  And in time Fuji hopefully might look at FA also as it's been proven by Phase One to make a considerable improvement to the overall image quality.

Paul C
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