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Author Topic: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100  (Read 7113 times)

BJL

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2020, 08:28:15 am »

Doug, it doesn’t surprise me that the increase in the resolution available in single shot reduces the proportion of use cases that need the extra effort and cost of a multi shot back; where 50 MP single shot was not enough so a MS was worth the tens of thousands of dollars more; now 150MP (or even 100MP) single shot is as good or better, and good enough for a larger share of use cases.

But Fujifilm is proposing a 100MP+MS for far less than the cost of any 150 MP single shot solution.

P.S. The “400MP” description can be misleading, but I’m not sure that it’s deliberately deceptive; it is necessary to use that many numerical “pixel” values to encode the extra data. It’s the hazard of the acceptance of pixel counts as a proxy for resolution.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2020, 11:25:06 am »

Well, to Doug's point, if there are substantial differences in the magic software soup, then things could turn out differently.  This isn't (necessarily) just about hardware equivalency.

If you made me guess, though:  sure.  It seems reasonable to suspect that it will be about the same.

With Sony, we aren’t limited to the manufacturer’s development software, either for single or multiple shots. I think it will be the same with Fuji. In fact, I don’t see how Fujifilm could prevent that.

Joe Towner

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2020, 11:33:35 am »

Doing a multi-shot specific back isn't really a huge upsell outside of very specific markets.  Doing an IS setup for a chip with really small pixel sites does make sense. Let Fuji keep working on it, and when it's perfected at that level, it'll be ready for the next IQ, or should we call it the 'IS'? Since Sony isn't making a bigger chip, the only way to higher resolutions is smaller photo sites, which may need the IS plus the gyros in the XF body for non-tripod use.  Part of what Phase has to balance is how can we keep the photographer working, not dealing with a camera issue.

You don't need in-body stabilization on the IQ4, but it sure would be nice.  I'm going thru some shots from MLS Cup last year and it's not pixel perfect, even at 1/1250th. Blame me, my technique & the lack of having a bunch of static cameras on remotes.


« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 11:42:19 am by Joe Towner »
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bbrantley

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2020, 02:00:54 pm »

With Sony, we aren’t limited to the manufacturer’s development software, either for single or multiple shots. I think it will be the same with Fuji. In fact, I don’t see how Fujifilm could prevent that.

That is true, but it does not invalidate my statement.  Fuji could well ship a proprietary algorithm that outperforms any other available one.  In the same light, Sony's algorithm may be the best one available for their files today.  (I have no idea.)
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2020, 04:03:58 pm »

That is true, but it does not invalidate my statement.

Any "magic" developed by third parties could be used with any pixel-shift cameras they chose to support. If they support both Sony and Fuji 3.76 um cameras, then the playing field will be level.

Fuji could well ship a proprietary algorithm that outperforms any other available one.  In the same light, Sony's algorithm may be the best one available for their files today.  (I have no idea.)

Sony's reconstruction algorithm is bested by at least one third party, and probably two.

Reconstructing 4-way and 16-way shift stacks is pretty simple, but compensating for camera and subject motion is not.

Does Fuji sell raw developers for the GFX cameras at present? I am unaware of their existence. If they don't, why should they start now?

Jim
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 04:07:25 pm by Jim Kasson »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2020, 03:34:06 am »

You don't need in-body stabilization on the IQ4, but it sure would be nice.  I'm going thru some shots from MLS Cup last year and it's not pixel perfect, even at 1/1250th. Blame me, my technique & the lack of having a bunch of static cameras on remotes.

The painful thing is that an imperfect 150mp image may contain as little as 20 or 40mp worth of image detail, depending on how much movement there was obviously.

Odds are that a GFX-100 or a Sony a7rIV with their image stabilization are able to deliver a lot more real world detail than an IQ4-150 shot imperfectly.

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2020, 10:33:08 am »

The painful thing is that an imperfect 150mp image may contain as little as 20 or 40mp worth of image detail, depending on how much movement there was obviously.

Odds are that a GFX-100 or a Sony a7rIV with their image stabilization are able to deliver a lot more real world detail than an IQ4-150 shot imperfectly.

Coming from a background of wedding photography, mostly using available light (you're moving, subjects are moving, light is not always abundant) I really don't understand the obsession/overstatement of the shutter speeds required to handle various levels of detail.

IS is a nice feature; if you're using a camera that has it, you should use it where applicable. It does expand the range of subject illumination in which you can shoot hand held. But cameras without IS are still, absolutely, hand holdable. More here: https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/

Not to mention that not every shot requires/benefits from maxing out the resolution of every last pixel. There are many image quality reasons to shoot a given given camera other than resolution, such as dynamic range, color, tonality, lens look, sync speed, etc, do. So even if you're in a range where you're "only" getting 50mp worth of detail from a 150mp camera, that doesn't automatically preclude it's use to the creation of beautiful images (unless the specific shot you are doing is one where micro detail is a leading/major aesethic contributor).

nazdravanul

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2020, 12:07:08 pm »

Coming from a background of wedding photography, mostly using available light (you're moving, subjects are moving, light is not always abundant) I really don't understand the obsession/overstatement of the shutter speeds required to handle various levels of detail.

IS is a nice feature; if you're using a camera that has it, you should use it where applicable. It does expand the range of subject illumination in which you can shoot hand held. But cameras without IS are still, absolutely, hand holdable. More here: https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/

Not to mention that not every shot requires/benefits from maxing out the resolution of every last pixel. There are many image quality reasons to shoot a given given camera other than resolution, such as dynamic range, color, tonality, lens look, sync speed, etc, do. So even if you're in a range where you're "only" getting 50mp worth of detail from a 150mp camera, that doesn't automatically preclude it's use to the creation of beautiful images (unless the specific shot you are doing is one where micro detail is a leading/major aesethic contributor).


That sounds about right, except for one critical argument: you don't really need a 150 MP camera for beautiful images, good colours, good dynamic range and leaf shutter lenses. If you're buying a 150 MP camera, the primary value proposition is the 150 MP. Otherwise, you do have lower MP count options, offering the exact same "aesthetic contributors" for a fraction of the cost.
And for wedding photography, 150 MP is overkill anyway.
I do need 150 MP for my large gallery prints (I would need a single shot 400 MP if one existed). So squeezing every single pixel of every camera I had is a critical requirement, for me. While a non-stabilised camera restricted my freedom of movement and creativity, tying me to a tripod in at least 50% of the situations,  the IBIS allows me to access more creative angles, more difficult locations, more rapid light changing situations, while still realising the main value proposition of the camera I bought: currently,  the 100 MP of the GFX 100. Even if pricing was identical (which is far from being the case) I would still have to choose as my 1st option the 100 MP stabilised camera vs the non stabilised 150 MP. The 150 MP would be my second option / camera, and I would consider it primarily for those extra MPs (leaf shutter lenses and tech lenses are another reason, but for my shooting they are maximum 20% of the shooting scenarios). 
Simply because the GFX 100 allows me to focus more on creating images, than fiddling with my tools. It gets out of the way faster, like any good tool should. I've been on the "slowing down will make your shots better" path,  and that while it may be true for beginning photographers who need to get out of the spay-and-pray mode of photography, for those of us who know what they need from their tools and their images, the IBIS-mirrorless-modern AF combination is really unlocking new creative possibilities. I would rather slow down to explore more angles, more fleeting light or movement scenarios, than slow down just because I need to focus on operating 3 metal legs and multiple knobs with all the paraphernalia associated with that. And even in those situations where I need to commit to doing that, I will do it primarily because those extra MPs count, because in my 1.80 by 1.20 to 3m by 2m gallery prints, every single bit of properly captured and processed detail counts.
It's hard to consider seriously the argument that even if you're spending the money for 150MP it shouldn't really matter if you're only getting 50MP out of that. The 10x price difference (German car level of investment) is hard to swallow based on "other aesthetic contributors" - especially when those same "contributors" can be realised with different tools for a fraction of the cost, especially considering the final display medium. While that argument may work for rich dentists and snobs, I wouldn't trust a real image creator making that argument. Sorry if I come across as harsh, but I spent too much time, energy and money feeding the marketing machines of camera makers and sellers, who kept convincing me that I always need more and more and more diminishing-returns-"special"-"magic'-"unquantifiable aesthetics"-gear, while in reality I only needed  ... 400 MP stabilised single shots, which nobody can deliver (small laughing break allowed) :))) And yes, while I'm in the target audience for that, I will really need 400 realised MPs not 50 MP with  "added aesthetic benefits". So please, let's try a better sales pitch, next time :)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 01:05:26 pm by nazdravanul »
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kers

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2020, 12:40:46 pm »

That sounds about right, except for one critical argument: you don't really need a 150 MP camera for beautiful images, good colours, good dynamic range and leaf shutter lenses. If you're buying a 150 MP camera, the primary value proposition is the 150 MP. Otherwise, you do have lower MP count options, offering the exact same "aesthetic contributors" for a fraction of the cost.
And for wedding photography, 150 MP is overkill anyway.
I do need 150 MP for my large gallery prints (I would need a single shot 400 MP if one existed). So squeezing every single pixel of every camera I had is a critical requirement, for me. While a non-stabilised camera restricted my freedom of movement and creativity, tying me to a tripod in at least 50% of the situations,  the IBIS allows me to access more creative angles, more difficult locations, more rapid light changing situations, while still realising the main value proposition of the camera I bought: currently,  the 100 MP of the GFX 100. Even if pricing was identical (which is far from being the case) I would still have to choose as my 1st option the 100 MP stabilised camera vs the non stabilised 150 MP. The 150 MP would be my second option / camera, and I would consider it primarily for those extra MPs (leaf shutter lenses and tech lenses are another reason, but for my shooting they are maximum 20% of the shooting scenarios). 
Simply because the GFX 100 allows me to focus more on creating images, than fiddling with my tools. It gets out of the way faster, like any good tool should. I've been on the "slowing down will make your shots better" path,  and that while it may be true for beginning photographers who need to get out of the spay-and-pray mode of photography, for those of us who know what they need from their tools and their images, the IBIS-mirrorless-modern AF combination is really unlocking new creative possibilities. I would rather slow down to explore more angles, more fleeting light or movement scenarios, than slow down just because I need to focus on operating 3 metal legs and multiple knobs with all the paraphernalia associated with that. And even in those situations where I need to commit to doing that, I will do it primarily because those extra MPs count, because in my 1.80 by 1.20 to 3m by 2m gallery prints, every single bit of properly captured and processed detail counts.
It's hard to consider seriously the argument that even if you're spending the money for 150MP it shouldn't really matter if you're only getting 50MP out of that. The 10x price difference (German car level of investment) is hard to swallow based on "other aesthetic contributors" - especially when those same "contributors" can be realised with different tools for a fraction of the cost, especially considering the final display medium. While that argument may work for rich dentists and snobs, I wouldn't trust a real image creator making that argument. Sorry if I come across as harsh, but I spent too much time, energy and money feeding the marketing machines of camera makers and sellers, who kept convincing me that I always need more and more and more diminishing-returns-"special"-"magic'-"unquantifiable aesthetics"-gear, while in reality I only needed  ... 400 MP stabilised single shots, which nobody can deliver (small laughing break allowed) :))) And yes, while I'm in the target audience for that, I will really need 400 realised MPS, not 50 MP with  "added aesthetic benefits". So please, let's try a better sales pitch, next time :)

Using the same arguments i choose a 35mm option with very fast AF & IBIS & 1.4 lenses ( and an abundant lens choice form 800mm to fisheye)
Also a lot cheaper if you drop them in the heat of the moment
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nazdravanul

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2020, 12:58:21 pm »

Using the same arguments i choose a 35mm option with very fast AF & IBIS & 1.4 lenses ( and an abundant lens choice form 800mm to fisheye)
Also a lot cheaper if you drop them in the heat of the moment

And for 99.9% of current photographic needs / tasks / jobs, that sounds about right.
The only reason I chose medium format was because I needed the resolution for the large size gallery prints. And had the GFX 100 not been available, with those features, lenses and post-processing options and especially at that price point, I would still shoot 35mm. But I'm a serious minority. Most photographers don't print or don't need to print that big, and I also believe, as earlier stated that 99.9% of the contemporary creative requirements can be met with a solid 35mm kit.
Which makes it a lot harder to try and sell a 10x more expensive kit, with the argument "if 150 MP fails, you can still get 50 MP of pretty".
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 03:50:28 pm by nazdravanul »
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BJL

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2020, 07:19:35 pm »

... cameras without IS are still, absolutely, hand holdable. More here: https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/
The linked example fits with my observation that, with careful hand-holding, I can do one or two stops better than 1/f in35mm format — for sharpness that is adequate for normal causal viewing; say about 3K (6MP). And I agree that the video world has a far better way of describing resolution, with linear measures like "4K" or "2000 lines per picture height", so 150MP is about 14K and only needs about three or four times the shutter speed of 35mm format film. (Bulky cameras have an inherent stability advantage too!)

Then again, that example is wide-angle in bright sunlight, about the easiest case for hand-holding. Where IBIS has most amazed me is dimly lit indoor scenes with no flash or tripod usable.
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bbrantley

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2020, 04:38:04 am »

Any "magic" developed by third parties could be used with any pixel-shift cameras they chose to support. If they support both Sony and Fuji 3.76 um cameras, then the playing field will be level.

Sony's reconstruction algorithm is bested by at least one third party, and probably two.

Reconstructing 4-way and 16-way shift stacks is pretty simple, but compensating for camera and subject motion is not.

Does Fuji sell raw developers for the GFX cameras at present? I am unaware of their existence. If they don't, why should they start now?

Okay, let me try again, because it feels like we're talking past one another now.

Doug suggested that an algorithm that reconstructs MS from a given camera might look great relative to an inferior algorithm that reconstructs SS on the same camera, and that to make the best decision we should compare the best MS only to the best SS end-to-end implementation, inclusive of the software processing.

I suggested that we will soon be able to compare GFX MS to SS and of course Phase SS.

You suggested that the improvement will look roughly like the A7r4 MS, presumably since the GFX and A7r4sensors are approximately the same per unit area.

I responded in an attempt to play devil's advocate by saying that Doug's statement suggests that any improvement may not look quite the same, since the A7r4 MS reconstruction algorithm may be different than the GFX MS one.  (I also said that I doubt that it will be the case that it is much different.)

You said a bunch more things, some of which add a lot more information (who has written better algorithms, what is available today, etc.) that is interesting, but I believe none of which invalidate what I wrote.  You ask me to speculate about manufacturers' intentions, when all I was trying to do was leave open the theoretical possibility that the software could, indeed, make a meaningful difference.

Yes, I think it is unlikely that Fuji will have some special algorithm that is much better.  No, I do not know who writes the GFX algorithms that are in LR, C1, Iridient, Phocus, dcraw, or whatever else.  I would have assumed that Fuji would at least help one or more of these dev teams optimize one or more of these algorithms, so when I wrote "proprietary" I did not mean to suggest a new algorithm that must be licensed separately. 

But I do think that it's still possible that the GFX MS software may be better or worse than the A7r4 MS software, and I also believe my earlier statements hold true.  (Let me know if not.)

Whew!
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2020, 11:45:05 am »

That sounds about right, except for one critical argument: you don't really need a 150 MP camera for beautiful images, good colours, good dynamic range and leaf shutter lenses. If you're buying a 150 MP camera, the primary value proposition is the 150 MP. Otherwise, you do have lower MP count options, offering the exact same "aesthetic contributors" for a fraction of the cost.
And for wedding photography, 150 MP is overkill anyway.
I do need 150 MP for my large gallery prints (I would need a single shot 400 MP if one existed). So squeezing every single pixel of every camera I had is a critical requirement, for me. While a non-stabilised camera restricted my freedom of movement and creativity, tying me to a tripod in at least 50% of the situations,  the IBIS allows me to access more creative angles, more difficult locations, more rapid light changing situations, while still realising the main value proposition of the camera I bought: currently,  the 100 MP of the GFX 100. Even if pricing was identical (which is far from being the case) I would still have to choose as my 1st option the 100 MP stabilised camera vs the non stabilised 150 MP. The 150 MP would be my second option / camera, and I would consider it primarily for those extra MPs (leaf shutter lenses and tech lenses are another reason, but for my shooting they are maximum 20% of the shooting scenarios). 
Simply because the GFX 100 allows me to focus more on creating images, than fiddling with my tools. It gets out of the way faster, like any good tool should. I've been on the "slowing down will make your shots better" path,  and that while it may be true for beginning photographers who need to get out of the spay-and-pray mode of photography, for those of us who know what they need from their tools and their images, the IBIS-mirrorless-modern AF combination is really unlocking new creative possibilities. I would rather slow down to explore more angles, more fleeting light or movement scenarios, than slow down just because I need to focus on operating 3 metal legs and multiple knobs with all the paraphernalia associated with that. And even in those situations where I need to commit to doing that, I will do it primarily because those extra MPs count, because in my 1.80 by 1.20 to 3m by 2m gallery prints, every single bit of properly captured and processed detail counts.
It's hard to consider seriously the argument that even if you're spending the money for 150MP it shouldn't really matter if you're only getting 50MP out of that. The 10x price difference (German car level of investment) is hard to swallow based on "other aesthetic contributors" - especially when those same "contributors" can be realised with different tools for a fraction of the cost, especially considering the final display medium. While that argument may work for rich dentists and snobs, I wouldn't trust a real image creator making that argument. Sorry if I come across as harsh, but I spent too much time, energy and money feeding the marketing machines of camera makers and sellers, who kept convincing me that I always need more and more and more diminishing-returns-"special"-"magic'-"unquantifiable aesthetics"-gear, while in reality I only needed  ... 400 MP stabilised single shots, which nobody can deliver (small laughing break allowed) :))) And yes, while I'm in the target audience for that, I will really need 400 realised MPs not 50 MP with  "added aesthetic benefits". So please, let's try a better sales pitch, next time :)

You seem to have misunderstood my post. My only point is that this is far less common than most people seem to think because the range of situations in which you can hand-hold the IQ4 150mp is far greater than I see commonly written/assumed. If you trusted the internet, then an IQ4 150mp without a tripod is useless, which is just empirically false; most of our users use their gear handheld at least much of the time.

And for what it's worth, I don't agree that any camera, compared to any other camera can provide "the exact same aesthetic contributors for a fraction of the cost" (color, lens look, dynamic range, tonality etc). Every camera and camera system (unless it's just a rebrand or such) is unique. The color, lens look, tonality of a Fuji GFX100 and IQ4 150mp is very far from "the exact same"; reasonable people can disagree on which one is better in these regards – I'm sure you know my opinion (nothing touches the color and tonality of an IQ4), but I recognize it as an opinion. They are very different camera systems: they use different RGB filters on the sensor, different IR filters in front of the sensor, different sensor sizes, different lens systems, different shutters, different resolutions, different color profiles, and handle very differently (menus/features/focus/tools/ergo etc); really the only thing that is the same is that they are both larger-than-35mm and both have higher-than-other-cameras sensor resolution. Again, all of those differences will favor either camera in different scenarios and for different users.

In terms of dynamic range, the IQ4 150mp is demonstrably better than the GFX100, even before accounting for the Frame Averaging feature that takes the IQ4 dynamic range to an entirely new level. Again, this may or may not matter to a given photographer; if you're shooting low-contrast scenes the dynamic range is irrelevant; if you're only shooting moderate-high contrast scenes the difference between the GFX and IQ4 will not be important; if you're shooting very high contrast scenes this can matter quite a bit.

It sounds like the GFX might well be the best camera for you. That is, succinctly, if you very frequently shoot in a situation where IS is mandatory for your results, then you're best served by a camera with IS.

Just checking though... have you had the chance to actually use an IQ4 150mp in the field, on an XF or XT?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 11:55:57 am by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2020, 11:51:13 am »

Okay, let me try again, because it feels like we're talking past one another now.

Well anyway, the three of us (Jim, you, me) all likely agree on one thing: none of us can know exactly what the benefits, limitations, and relevant comparisons will be until they can be directly tested.

Real-world tests show that which theory only speculates on.

Should anyone want to test a GFX (in a rumored pixel-shift mode or otherwise) against an IQ4, we (DT) are glad to arrange for an IQ4 to be available to you in our NY or LA locations or in San Fran, Phoenix, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, or Austin, all of which we'll be to in the next couple months (see our events calendar for more detail).

SharonVL

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2020, 12:11:03 pm »

Well anyway, the three of us (Jim, you, me) all likely agree on one thing: none of us can know exactly what the benefits, limitations, and relevant comparisons will be until they can be directly tested.

Real-world tests show that which theory only speculates on.

Should anyone want to test a GFX (in a rumored pixel-shift mode or otherwise) against an IQ4, we (DT) are glad to arrange for an IQ4 to be available to you in our NY or LA locations or in San Fran, Phoenix, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, or Austin, all of which we'll be to in the next couple months (see our events calendar for more detail).

Ship them both to Nantucket and I will test them thoroughly. Might take me a year or two.

 8)

Sharon
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nazdravanul

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2020, 01:16:32 pm »



And for what it's worth, I don't agree that any camera, compared to any other camera can provide "the exact same aesthetic contributors for a fraction of the cost" (color, lens look, dynamic range, tonality etc). Every camera and camera system (unless it's just a rebrand or such) is unique.

Just checking though... have you had the chance to actually use an IQ4 150mp in the field, on an XF or XT?

1. "Any camera" and "exact same aesthetics" are definitely not my words - my whole post was along the line of diminishing returns and real creative output, with the final display medium in mind, based on the whole "even a degraded 50MP out of a 150MP back is amazing"

2. I haven't had the chance to test an IQ4 150 in the field, it's way too rich for my blood, I'm not even going to consider it until the price comes waaaay down - the XT is the interesting platform, even though the lack of EVF support makes it a bit crippled for location work.
But I'm stitching and stacking in all possible combinations, so I am no stranger to "ultra-high" resolution final capture files (with all the dynamic range, micro-contrast and colour tonalities associated with them).

And please don't tell me, again, that this is not about resolution, it's about how beautiful a 150MP shot, degraded to 50MP of details due to camera shake, is vs a properly shot 50MP smaller format option, because I will never be able to stomach the 10x price argument based on that. I'm definitely not the target audience for that sales pitch. 

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TechTalk

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2020, 03:12:48 pm »

IBIS has been around for some time and its value as a feature is likely well known to many. Multi-Shot (pixel shift) has also been available for decades and the value of capturing full RGB color data for every pixel, for those that have made comparisons, is also understood. That manufacturers have, in recent years, combined these two features to provide multi-shot image quality at much lower price points than previously available is of great interest and value to me. I hope to see even wider adoption of it.

Reading thru this thread and seeing the various attempts to diminish the quality or value of one or more manufacturer's products or features relative to another reminds me, for some strange reason, of a famous philosopher's quotation.

"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know."

Groucho Marx

Animal Crackers - 1930
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TechTalk

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2020, 03:16:29 pm »

I really don't understand the obsession/overstatement

No comment.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2020, 03:53:13 pm »

Okay, let me try again, because it feels like we're talking past one another now.

Doug suggested that an algorithm that reconstructs MS from a given camera might look great relative to an inferior algorithm that reconstructs SS on the same camera, and that to make the best decision we should compare the best MS only to the best SS end-to-end implementation, inclusive of the software processing.

I suggested that we will soon be able to compare GFX MS to SS and of course Phase SS.

You suggested that the improvement will look roughly like the A7r4 MS, presumably since the GFX and A7r4sensors are approximately the same per unit area.

I responded in an attempt to play devil's advocate by saying that Doug's statement suggests that any improvement may not look quite the same, since the A7r4 MS reconstruction algorithm may be different than the GFX MS one.  (I also said that I doubt that it will be the case that it is much different.)

You said a bunch more things, some of which add a lot more information (who has written better algorithms, what is available today, etc.) that is interesting, but I believe none of which invalidate what I wrote.  You ask me to speculate about manufacturers' intentions, when all I was trying to do was leave open the theoretical possibility that the software could, indeed, make a meaningful difference.

Yes, I think it is unlikely that Fuji will have some special algorithm that is much better.  No, I do not know who writes the GFX algorithms that are in LR, C1, Iridient, Phocus, dcraw, or whatever else.  I would have assumed that Fuji would at least help one or more of these dev teams optimize one or more of these algorithms, so when I wrote "proprietary" I did not mean to suggest a new algorithm that must be licensed separately. 

But I do think that it's still possible that the GFX MS software may be better or worse than the A7r4 MS software, and I also believe my earlier statements hold true.  (Let me know if not.)

Whew!

My wife used to be the NP for a bunch of surgeons. They had a saying: that, if there are lots of ways to do something, none of them are very good.

Demosaicing a single shot Bayer-CFA image is hard. There are a huge number of ways to do it. Adobe just invented a new one last year. There are problems with them all. So establishing the single-shot baseline may be tricky.

Except for camera and subject motion, demosaicing a 4-way or 16-way multishot image is easy, and there aren't a lot of ways to do the basic demosaicing. Except for some gratuitous post processing done by Sony, pixel shift images from the a7RIV produced by IE look a lot like those from PixelShift2DNG. Any test images should be captured without much camera or subject motion, so they all ought to look about the same (except for the extra PP that SOny adds, which is not tamable). And I've never seen a multishot algorithm that impressed me with how it dealt with camera motion.

There will continue to be improvements in single shot demosaicing (and I'll bet some of them will turn workstations into room heaters like Adobe's new one does). But, except for motion, i don't expect much in the way of such improvements in multishot reconstruction.

Jim

bbrantley

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Re: Fujifilm is working on a 400MP pixel shift mode for the GFX100
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2020, 11:28:25 pm »

Demosaicing a single shot Bayer-CFA image is hard. There are a huge number of ways to do it. Adobe just invented a new one last year. There are problems with them all. So establishing the single-shot baseline may be tricky.

Right.  The computation reminds me a lot of the inverse of dithering algorithms for print.  Plenty of tradeoffs to be made, different goals to be achieved, and of course, subjectivity.

Quote
Except for camera and subject motion, demosaicing a 4-way or 16-way multishot image is easy, and there aren't a lot of ways to do the basic demosaicing.

I understand what you're saying now.  I didn't realize the demosaicing was so straightforward for these two modes.

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