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Author Topic: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?  (Read 2146 times)

hasselbladfan

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Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« on: January 13, 2020, 11:22:36 am »

It is surprising to see that most MF manufacturers are still selling the "now 6-7 years old" 50MP 43x33mm sensor. Surprising, especially at a time that 35mm cameras are catching up in MP.

With all the innovation Sony is having in its sensors, why is only P1 coming out with a 150MP? Why is there no low priced Pentax 645 Z II yet with 100MP?

Has Sony killed the goose with the golden eggs by moving too rapidly to a 100MP rather than selling first a mid range 75MP sensor?

Just some questions I don't have the answers for.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 12:05:39 pm »

It is surprising to see that most MF manufacturers are still selling the "now 6-7 years old" 50MP 43x33mm sensor. Surprising, especially at a time that 35mm cameras are catching up in MP.
I am not sure that MF is about MP only.

Quote
With all the innovation Sony is having in its sensors, why is only P1 coming out with a 150MP? Why is there no low priced Pentax 645 Z II yet with 100MP?
Good question, may be that Hasselblad's customers are not willing to pay for full frame 645 sensors? Hasselblad may have their focus on the X1D? Or just trying to keep owner DJI happy?

I am not sure Hasselblad is in good shape. Phase One, who knows?! Seem though that Capture One is now on a separate site https://www.captureone.com/en/

Quote
Has Sony killed the goose with the golden eggs by moving too rapidly to a 100MP rather than selling first a mid range 75MP sensor?
As you may have heard the digital camera industry is going trough fast decline. The MFD market is in all probability a tiny one. So, Sony probably tries to rationalize development efforts. Sony now have at least four sensor sizes using a very similar pixel design.

  • 26 MP APS-C
  • 61 MP 24x36
  • 101 MP 44x33
  • 152 MP 54x41

Sensor development is expensive and Sony cannot meet demand in production. So, I guess  that they want to keep development and production rational.
[/quote]

Well, my guesses....

Best regards
Erik
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2020, 12:43:42 pm »

It is surprising to see that most MF manufacturers are still selling the "now 6-7 years old" 50MP 43x33mm sensor. Surprising, especially at a time that 35mm cameras are catching up in MP.

With all the innovation Sony is having in its sensors, why is only P1 coming out with a 150MP? Why is there no low priced Pentax 645 Z II yet with 100MP?

Has Sony killed the goose with the golden eggs by moving too rapidly to a 100MP rather than selling first a mid range 75MP sensor?

Just some questions I don't have the answers for.

The capabilities of 24x36mm and smaller cameras have risen dramatically in the last 15 or 20 years, to the point where they are good enough for most uses. That has made the MF market smaller as a percentage of the digital camera market, even if you exclude cellphones from the digital camera  market.  Lower sales means lower gross profit, which means less money to spend on R&D. That means longer development cycles, and less-sophisticated -- and more buggy -- firmware. I think the above trends will continue. Not sure why you said "except P1". It seems that Fuji has the lion's share of the MF marketplace now, and that doesn't leave much for others. Phase One is targeting the high end, and Hassy is scrambling, having shipped a Mk II version of the X1D that seems to only fulfill the promise of the Mk I.

I don't think you can blame Sony for using the same pixel design in different sized sensors; it seems like a smart way to leverage R&D. And slowing technical progress for marketing reasons has never been a long-term success model; it invites competition to eat your lunch.

Jim

BobShaw

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 03:33:38 pm »

> Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
That's funny. Most arguments have been about P1 missing the boat with mirrorless.
Canon just released a 1DX MkIII costing $6500US (and more in most countries) that has 20MP. MP is not everything.
I certainly do not want more than 50MP because even with that each file is 85MB.
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kers

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2020, 06:55:30 pm »

...
I certainly do not want more than 50MP because even with that each file is 85MB.
So no lossless compression? my d850 46mp takes about 50-55MP
But the size of the images is not important for me; new harddisks are big and cheap and new computers are fast.
I shoot sometimes 1000 images a day and still have no speed/harddisk problems.
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BobShaw

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 08:17:59 pm »

So no lossless compression? my d850 46mp takes about 50-55MP
But the size of the images is not important for me; new harddisks are big and cheap and new computers are fast.
I shoot sometimes 1000 images a day and still have no speed/harddisk problems.
I am not going down the 14 vs 16 bit road.
Lossless compression loses features until you uncompress it again.
I have no storage or speed problems either with a 2013 iMac and a 8G/128G MacBook Air.
When you have 4TB data though backup disks start to be an issue.
Even 6TB disks are barely big enough and you need lots of them.
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BJL

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Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1 and Fujifilm)?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 10:33:42 pm »

It is surprising to see that most MF manufacturers are still selling the "now 6-7 years old" 50MP 43x33mm sensor. Surprising, especially at a time that 35mm cameras are catching up in MP.

With all the innovation Sony is having in its sensors, why is only P1 coming out with a 150MP? Why is there no low priced Pentax 645 Z II yet with 100MP?

Has Sony killed the goose with the golden eggs by moving too rapidly to a 100MP rather than selling first a mid range 75MP sensor?

Just some questions I don't have the answers for.
It is a bit puzzling that Hasselblad has not yet upgraded its 44x33mm offerings to the newer 100MP sensor (neither for the mirrorless X system nor in backs for H), given that it seems to improve in other respects (like DR) not just pixel count, and so makes the IQ advantages over 35mm format more clear cut. Hasselblad does maintain a clear IQ advantage over 35mm format with its 100MP 54x40mm backs and the "400MP" multi-shot backs, but no new generation sensors there either. And Ricoh-Pentax does seem to be idling; not just in medium format.

Is it over-simplification to suggest that the shrinking niche of "larger than 36x24mm digital cameras" might be heading toward just two dominant systems: Phase One 645 format DSLRs and Fujifilm 44x33mm format mirrorless?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 11:51:50 pm »

Lossless compression loses features until you uncompress it again.

Huh?

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 01:07:54 am »

MF must be under some pressure. Many people chased a particular standard and didnít necessarily chase after a relative ďbest availableĒ. I personally know many photographers who used to shoot MF and now shoot DSLR or mirrorless. Brooks Jensen of Lensworks always shot 4X5 and now shoots M4/3. Sort of illustrates my point. He claims he is getting much the same quality at the print sizes he requires. 

Of course a niche still exists for such admirable tools as the new super high res Phase Backs and so on.  No longer for me however.  I donít think the manufacturers have fallen asleep but I think the sector left to them has become increasingly small, rarified and technically challenging while suffering from a shrinking market share due to the massively improved offerings from smaller digital formats. Less money for R&D means fewer options available. Not an easy place to make a living Iím sure.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 03:15:41 am »

Huh?
Hi Jim,

It is a property of certain medium format bits, they can only exist in non compressed state. Not sure that GFX of your implements that feature correctly, that may be the reason you have never noticed.

Best regards
Erik


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hasselbladfan

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 09:22:24 am »

Why did I exclude Phase One from the "sleepers"?

I recently saw a demonstration of the Phase One XT and I was really excited. What a fantastic landscape / architecture / travel camera! Do I need 150MP? No, probably not, especially if it costs more than 50k, which I don't have. Do I need a Rodenstock lens with carbonfiber shutter blades that last 500,000 clicks? No, probably not. Do I need the feature to take 120 clicks of the same shot in two seconds, in order to be able to remove all moving objects of your architecture shots? No, probably not, but at least this is innovation to me. 

Hasselblad just (re)launched their Mark II with the same 6-7 years old 50MP sensor as the Mark I, so it will take at least till 2023 before they incorporate a 100MP sensor in the X2D. That is being very slow. I fully agree that MP is far from everything you buy in MF, but once you allow some MF uses to move down to Sony, you will not get them back. How many of us are ready to pay 35k for a H6D100? Isn't it time that Hasselblad starts selling this camera for 10-15k and give the guys who can afford it a 150MP for 35k? Hope someone is listening.

We all know MF producers are not at the top of their curve, but falling asleep will not make it better.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 09:27:59 am by hasselbladfan »
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Rob C

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 10:00:20 am »

I think the thing about price is all relative.

Back in the '50s, as a kid amateur, I lusted after the Hassy 500 Series cameras, but they were way beyond hope. Years later, working as a self-employed pro, I went throughn a range of cheaper alternatives, spending way too much, until I was able to walk into the shop, lay my money down and walk out with a brand new 500C. There is a sad life lesson there: unless very well funded, which I was not, it seems impossible to save all that money wasted on cheaper options by buying best right away.

The difference for me today, though, is that long retired, money conscious since the banks decided to pay themselves bigger fortunes but depositors no visible interest (what a friggin' scam that is!), spending any big money on cameras etc. is seen as worse than pointless, and downright stupid, in fact. That said, for a young pro with the possibility of good work, why not take the gamble? I did, and it turned out to be a great life whilst it lasted.

In that proverbial nutshell: value for money depends on the point of reference from which you are able to make that call.

Jim Kasson

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 11:08:11 am »

Why did I exclude Phase One from the "sleepers"?

I recently saw a demonstration of the Phase One XT and I was really excited. What a fantastic landscape / architecture / travel camera! Do I need 150MP? No, probably not, especially if it costs more than 50k, which I don't have. Do I need a Rodenstock lens with carbonfiber shutter blades that last 500,000 clicks? No, probably not. Do I need the feature to take 120 clicks of the same shot in two seconds, in order to be able to remove all moving objects of your architecture shots? No, probably not, but at least this is innovation to me. 

Hasselblad just (re)launched their Mark II with the same 6-7 years old 50MP sensor as the Mark I, so it will take at least till 2023 before they incorporate a 100MP sensor in the X2D. That is being very slow. I fully agree that MP is far from everything you buy in MF, but once you allow some MF uses to move down to Sony, you will not get them back. How many of us are ready to pay 35k for a H6D100? Isn't it time that Hasselblad starts selling this camera for 10-15k and give the guys who can afford it a 150MP for 35k? Hope someone is listening.

We all know MF producers are not at the top of their curve, but falling asleep will not make it better.

What about Fuji? They have the biggest market share, but you didn't mention them.

Jim

Jim Kasson

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 11:11:58 am »


It is a property of certain medium format bits, they can only exist in non compressed state. Not sure that GFX of your implements that feature correctly, that may be the reason you have never noticed.


I hope you're just pulling my leg, Erik.

For everyone else: there is no utility in worrying about where the bits go when the image is losslessly compressed; it is enough to know that they are restored with perfect accuracy upon decompression.

Jim

Rob C

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2020, 11:33:37 am »

I hope you're just pulling my leg, Erik.

For everyone else: there is no utility in worrying about where the bits go when the image is losslessly compressed; it is enough to know that they are restored with perfect accuracy upon decompression.

Jim

At last! Religion, photography and faith combine to make the perfect whole, and the meaning of life is revealed within an enigmatic riddle!

;-)

Joe Towner

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2020, 12:06:12 pm »

Pentax forgot they make a MF camera years ago, what's out is all there will ever be. Hasselblad still shipping the old chip isn't a surprise, it's what they know and couldn't shoehorn the new 100mp into the form factor they sold everyone on with the X series. Hasselblad has forgotten their H users, hopeful that they never never leave, but deep down they know they will.  The 907x got lots of attention 6 months ago, still hasn't been shipped & the only price that's known is a $7,500 Special edition with the CFV II 50c back. Hass had folks attention, didn't give a 'make a deposit' link to gauge interest & will move further into a camera folks say they want but never seem to acquire.

Leica is still around, but those S cameras are for existing Leica shooters.

Phase is doing everything right to be the high end, while Fuji runs circles around everything not based around the 150mp chip.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2020, 12:14:38 pm »

At last! Religion, photography and faith combine to make the perfect whole, and the meaning of life is revealed within an enigmatic riddle!


Don't forget math.

Rob C

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2020, 02:42:28 pm »

Don't forget math.


Ever my Achilles heel. My wife took care of numbers. As she did with grammar and spelling. I took pictures. Seemed fair at the time.

:-)

BobShaw

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2020, 05:00:41 pm »

If people want to buy and own a 100MP brick then Hasselblad certainly makes one too. In Australia it will cost $63000. You can even buy a 400MP for around $94,000.
I can just add it to the cart and order one on line.
Phase One from the same vendor does not give prices on cameras. A Waist Level Viewfinder though is $1600.

Alternatively you can buy an X1D with less MP but also outstanding IQ for $9000. That seems to be why you normally have to go on wait list to get not just the camera but even the accessories. Marketing 101. Sell something the market wants or go broke.

I have a 50MP 35mm camera also but the image quality is poor in comparison. I may sell it and get a 20MP 35mm camera for the occasional use it now gets. The latest tier one Canon 1DX MkIII is also 20MP. So again, MP is not everything.
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BJL

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Re: Have all the MF manufacturers fallen asleep (except P1)?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2020, 08:41:45 pm »

MF must be under some pressure. ... I donít think the manufacturers have fallen asleep but I think the sector left to them has become increasingly small, rarified and technically challenging while suffering from a shrinking market share due to the massively improved offerings from smaller digital formats. Less money for R&D means fewer options available. Not an easy place to make a living Iím sure.
There is that downtrend in choices of format size of course (which has been going on for over a century), combined with the shift towards mirrorless which puts extra demands on R&D. Maybe Hasselblad has had to prioritize its new X system lenses first the X body second, updating for that body new 100MP sensor third, and has the shrinking market for "645 SLR legacy format" as lowest priority, or zero priority.

However I do not agree with this (though I do with most of what Joe says there):
Hasselblad ... couldn't shoehorn the new 100mp into the form factor they sold everyone on with the X series.
I see no reason why the new 100MP Sony sensor in the same 44x33mm format requires a bigger body: my guess is that the new Fujifilm GFX100 body is bigger mostly because it adds IS, which adds bulk for both the largest sensor shift mechanism in any cameras so far, and maybe needs more battery bulk to power it too.
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