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Author Topic: Taxes, anyone?  (Read 3434 times)

John Camp

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Taxes, anyone?
« on: November 06, 2019, 01:03:24 pm »

The IRS just announced the new income tax brackets.

The top rate of 37% applies to married couples filing jointly for amounts over $622,050. For single people, over $518,400. But, of course, this is not the whole truth -- because there's a federal medicare tax of 2.9% on your total income, which means for people in the top bracket, the marginal tax rate is effectively 40%.

One thing that has always somewhat bemused me is the federal politicians' pretense that state income taxes don't exist. Rich people should pay 40%! And if you push that up or down a bit, what's a couple of percentage points for rich guys? But in California, rich people pay 13% income tax, and since the recent tax bill, most of that isn't deductible from your federal tax -- so rich WAGE earners from California (as opposed to investment earners) are paying probably half of their income in taxes, with no way to shelter it. A surgeon, when you take into account collateral expenses (secretary, accountant, etc.) probably has to earn at least $1.2 million in California to take home a half million. A half million in San Francisco is doing well, but not exactly great...I'm not exactly weeping for them, but I find the situation interesting.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 01:52:16 pm »

I am somewhat surprised, didn't expect you to complain about taxing rich people more ;)

Rob C

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2019, 02:10:00 pm »

The IRS just announced the new income tax brackets.

The top rate of 37% applies to married couples filing jointly for amounts over $622,050. For single people, over $518,400. But, of course, this is not the whole truth -- because there's a federal medicare tax of 2.9% on your total income, which means for people in the top bracket, the marginal tax rate is effectively 40%.

One thing that has always somewhat bemused me is the federal politicians' pretense that state income taxes don't exist. Rich people should pay 40%! And if you push that up or down a bit, what's a couple of percentage points for rich guys? But in California, rich people pay 13% income tax, and since the recent tax bill, most of that isn't deductible from your federal tax -- so rich WAGE earners from California (as opposed to investment earners) are paying probably half of their income in taxes, with no way to shelter it. A surgeon, when you take into account collateral expenses (secretary, accountant, etc.) probably has to earn at least $1.2 million in California to take home a half million. A half million in San Francisco is doing well, but not exactly great...I'm not exactly weeping for them, but I find the situation interesting.

John, can you break down the above into a simple explanation: is a federal income tax charged on top of a state income tax; in other words, do people have to pay two different sets of income taxes on the same income, as distinct from local sales taxes?

If so, seems rather unfair.

If you are a Brit living in Europe, many European countries have agreements with the UK to avoid citizens paying tax twice on the same income - once to the UK and again to the host country.

Rob

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 02:20:03 pm »

By way of comparison, the individuals' tax bands in the UK are

up to £12,500 - nil
£12,501 to £50,000 - 20%
£50,001 to £100,000 - 40%
£100,001 to £125,000 - 60%
£125,001 to £150,000 - 40%
above £150,000 - 45%

The anomaly between £100k and £125k arises because for every £2 earned in that range, £1 of the personal allowance (the "up to £12,500" bracket) is lost. There is also National Insurance, which is paid at 12% on income between £166 and £962 per week and 2% above that, although it can be split into various sub-divisions.

Jeremy
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2019, 02:24:41 pm »

John, can you break down the above into a simple explanation: is a federal income tax charged on top of a state income tax; in other words, do people have to pay two different sets of income taxes on the same income, as distinct from local sales taxes?

If so, seems rather unfair.

If you are a Brit living in Europe, many European countries have agreements with the UK to avoid citizens paying tax twice on the same income - once to the UK and again to the host country.

Rob

Yes, you pay taxes on the same income twice if you live a in state with an income tax.  Typically state income taxes are low compared to the federal rate; my state is ~3% and some have none.  CA is an exception with its pretty high tax rate. 

Perhaps one of the reasons 40% of residents on CA have considered moving out of state in a recent survey. 

Lets also not forget FICA (social security tax) that is 7.65% on the first $133K; none after that.  One caviot for this tax is the employer has to match the tax paid by the employee, which raises the cost of employment and also means business owners get to pay a 15.3% FICA tax on their income.  There is also no brackets on this tax; only that after $133K you no longer pay it. 

This is one of the many reasons I am fiscally conservative.  And before anyone asks, I would, without thought, rather keep that 15.3% myself and invest it the way I see fit. 

Last, we have no national VAT (sales tax), but nearly every state and some municipalities do.  PA sales tax is 6% plus an additional 2% for items purchased in Philadelphia.  Philadelphia also has a high sugary beverage tax, which (low and behold) a recent study found is causing a significant rise in the amount of food shopping Philadelphians do outside the city and actually produced a net loss in tax revenue from sugary/prepared food products.  Who would have thought; actually everyone.  Our very liberal mayor although has doubled down on it and refused to acknowledge the study. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 02:38:16 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Two23

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2019, 02:54:35 pm »

No personal or corporate taxes in my state, and the others are low. 
  One of the reasons I moved here.



Kent in SD
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John Camp

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2019, 03:02:09 pm »

Yes, state taxes are on top of federal taxes.

As Joe says, the tax rates do vary from extremely high (on rich folks) in places like New York and California, to nothing in places like Washington State and Florida, which is one reason a lot of New Yorkers move to Florida. But when there is no income tax, then that money usually has to be made up somehow to provide services. Most states have a sales tax, some quite high. Washington State has no income tax, but sales tax in Seattle, the biggest city, is 10.1% on all sales except groceries and prescription drugs ("prepared food" is not exempt.) In California, sales tax is 7.25 percent, on top of that income tax rate, and high property taxes for new buyers.

Other states have special circumstances -- Nevada has a fairly small population for its size, but it has huge money-collecting tax machines in the gambling resorts of Las Vegas and Tahoe. Florida hammers tourists (Foreigners coming to the US on vacation (Brits to Florida) are often shocked by tax add-ons to their hotel bills which can add up to 20% of the bill.)
And so on.

Americans also pay property taxes, which can be quite stiff.

I am somewhat surprised, didn't expect you to complain about taxing rich people more ;)

I'm actually quite affluent. Just not heartless.

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Redcrown

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2019, 03:09:34 pm »

Ah, those poor rich Californians.

Some fun facts to show and tell (from various respected sources, 2016 to 2018 data):

The total illegal immigrant population of the US is estimated at 11.1 billion.
California has the most at 2.35 million, almost 11% of their population.
Texas is 2nd at 1.65 million.

All US Federal, state, and local government expenditures on illegal immigration is $135 billion annually.
Illegal immigrants pay an estimated 19 billion annually in taxes, leaving a net cost of $116 billion.

In California alone, illegal immigrants receive:

$14.4 billion for education.
$4 billion for healthcare.
$4.4 billion for justice and law enforcement.
$1.6 billion for general government services.
$1.0 billion for auto insurance.
$790 million for public assistance.

That is a total of over $25 billion, which is almost $2,400 per legal California household.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2019, 03:28:38 pm »

... The total illegal immigrant population of the US is estimated at 11.1 billion...

Wishful thinking? ;)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2019, 03:59:31 pm »

No personal or corporate taxes in my state, and the others are low. 
  One of the reasons I moved here.



Kent in SD
That and the winter weather! ;D
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2019, 04:09:42 pm »

Maryland has a graduated state income tax starting at 5% and going up to 5.75% for the rich folk.  Sales tax is 6% and 9% on distilled spirits (easy to evade by going into Washington DC).  We also have property taxes that are assessed by the country.  Property taxes are controlled for rapid appreciation of one's home so they don't go up like a rocket ship. 

My bottom line is what do you get in return.  We have excellent public schools, a nice park system, libraries that are open 6-7 days a week depending on location, reliable transportation system and a bunch of other stuff.  We have a symphony hall just about a mile from where we live that has concerts all the time.   I feel that I get good value for the state and local taxes that I pay.
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David Sutton

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2019, 04:44:45 pm »

It's also worth considering how much debt local and state authorities are carrying.
The rates for our city council are a bit higher than many other towns, but we have zero debt. Those of us here for the long term agree it gives us more resilience.
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Rob C

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2019, 04:59:29 pm »

Makes me feel that I should be happy that I'm no longer working anywhere!

They say there are only two things sure in life: death and taxes. Maybe the one causes the other.

;-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2019, 05:08:14 pm »

...They say there are only two things sure in life: death and taxes. Maybe the one causes the other.

And vice versa (inheritance tax) ;)

Alan Klein

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2019, 05:21:08 pm »

Yes, you pay taxes on the same income twice if you live a in state with an income tax.  Typically state income taxes are low compared to the federal rate; my state is ~3% and some have none.  CA is an exception with its pretty high tax rate. 

Perhaps one of the reasons 40% of residents on CA have considered moving out of state in a recent survey. 

Lets also not forget FICA (social security tax) that is 7.65% on the first $133K; none after that.  One caviot for this tax is the employer has to match the tax paid by the employee, which raises the cost of employment and also means business owners get to pay a 15.3% FICA tax on their income.  There is also no brackets on this tax; only that after $133K you no longer pay it. 

This is one of the many reasons I am fiscally conservative.  And before anyone asks, I would, without thought, rather keep that 15.3% myself and invest it the way I see fit. 

Last, we have no national VAT (sales tax), but nearly every state and some municipalities do.  PA sales tax is 6% plus an additional 2% for items purchased in Philadelphia.  Philadelphia also has a high sugary beverage tax, which (low and behold) a recent study found is causing a significant rise in the amount of food shopping Philadelphians do outside the city and actually produced a net loss in tax revenue from sugary/prepared food products.  Who would have thought; actually everyone.  Our very liberal mayor although has doubled down on it and refused to acknowledge the study. 


Jusdt to calrify a few points.  The 7.65% include 6.2% for Social Security which is capped at $133K income but also 1.45% for Medicare which is not capped at all.  You pay that percentage regardless of how much income you earn, even if it's $10 million.  As you stated, your employer matches the 7.65% so in effect that's potential earnings you could have made but never got, a total of 15.3%.


As a retiree getting Social Security, my Medicare payments did not stop.  It actually went up.  My wife and I pay thousands of dollars every year for Medicare.  The government takes it out of our Social Security retiree payments.  So Medicare is never "free".  It's even higher for us to most as we have additional income and they charge more for Medicare as you income gets higher.


Regarding state income taxes, the reason it's legal, is because America is a Federal republic.  Each state has its own government to run and services it must pay for including local police, education, building roads, public transportation,health care for its residents, parks, state militia, State Police, Fire Departments.  All this is paid through State income taxes (unless the state doesn't have those taxes) plus state sales taxes, property taxes which are very high where I live in New Jersey, gasoline taxes, inheritance taxes, alcohol taxes, marijuana taxes :) etc.  The Federal government taxes to pay for their costs such as the military, Medicare, Social Security, health and education subsidies to the states, foreign contributions, NASA, FBI, Customs, Interior (parks and national monuments and other Federally owned property, etc.  Although the government does have tariffs, there is no national sales tax like a VAT tax.  Sales Taxes in the State are for the final purchaser to pay.  There are no Value Added Taxes charged at previous levels of sales such as by distributors, manufacturers, etc. 


Alan Klein

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2019, 05:25:02 pm »

EVen if you are in the 25% bracket, if you add 15.3% for Medicare and Social Security and let's say 7% for state income taxes, you're almost up to 50% not including states sales taxes, property taxes etc.  If they pass national medicare, our taxes will go up to 70% and we'll be working for the government.  No wonder the Greeks have given up and just enjoy sipping coffee all afternoon in a cafe.  My last boss was Greek-American and retired to Greece.  Smart guy.  Maybe I'll join him.  :)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2019, 05:26:44 pm »




As a retiree getting Social Security, my Medicare payments did not stop.  It actually went up.  My wife and I pay thousands of dollars every year for Medicare.  The government takes it out of our Social Security retiree payments.  So Medicare is never "free".  It's even higher for us to most as we have additional income and they charge more for Medicare as you income gets higher.
Almost everyone under the age of 65 doesn't understand this.  You also need to figure in MediGap insurance policies so that you are not on the hook for the customary co-pays.  The drug benefit is also complicated as you can have some high out of pocket expenses for specialty drugs. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2019, 05:26:50 pm »

It's also worth considering how much debt local and state authorities are carrying.
The rates for our city council are a bit higher than many other towns, but we have zero debt. Those of us here for the long term agree it gives us more resilience.

It's all going to come crumbling down when it happens.  Both to the Feds and to the states.  Everyone is going to ask why it happened.  We should all look in the mirror.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2019, 05:27:03 pm »

Municipalities also have their own income tax. 

In Philly we have a 4% city wage tax, so long as you are employed and/or live in the city.  As a business owner, I dont pay wage tax but city privilege tax, which is also 4%.  However, I only need to pay that for jobs I photograph in city limits, which is less then 10% of my projects.  So I do get a break there. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Taxes, anyone?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2019, 05:29:21 pm »

EVen if you are in the 25% bracket,
the 25% bracket is a misnomer as that is not your actual tax rate.  You have to subtract all the deductions you are eligible for.  For example, I'm in one of the slightly higher brackets BUT my effective tax rate is only 15%.
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