Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video  (Read 11735 times)

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2019, 12:56:31 pm »

I've been using HP Z Series printers since they first came out (still have original Z3100 but don't use it).

The belt issue is well known, as is the sheet feeding issue, which we all learned (from Ernst Dinkla) a work around that makes it a breeze.

The plain embedded spectrophotometer ICC profile is mediocre, but passable for many.  Extended patch profiles made with the ESP rock and show the printer is capable of so much more than normal users can (or are willing to) achieve.

The beauty of the Z3200 is that it can be used in an experimental context, color wise.

Some machines had problems that couldn't be resolved. If one bought a used Z3200, or inherited a used one, no telling what kind of mess it could be, and once getting into it, turned out to be a nightmare for some.  Otherwise, there are original Z3100 machines out there still going strong. The same holds true for Canon and Epson. Try to fix one of those on your own.

Pixel peeping down to the micron is in my book pointless. Ultimately, aside from measuring light values, it always comes down to subjective analysis of the final print, which depends on the skill of the photographer and the skill of the person making a print on any given printer. And, the eye of the viewer. Connoisseurship extends beyond, cigars and wines.... :-)

In this regard, the Z3200 excels in my opinion. Additionally, all sources agree that the Vivera inkset far exceeds all other competition in longevity.

Some people swear by the Z3200, others enjoy the Epson and Canon printers.

The Z9+ is not without issues, the same as ALL printers, each in their own way.  However, the Z9+ has come out with a complete ground up build - it's an entirely new machine, and it is formidable.

It fascinates me how individuals can speculate about performance, quality and aesthetics without ever having used the printer.
There is no way any other current printer can improve over the Z9+ in terms of Black and White, and it will be a photo finish in the area of color, with the Z9+ coming in very strong. Speed?  Fuhgeddaboudit.

Without rolling up sleeves and getting dirty, paying dues on understanding and operating the printer, there is no joy, period.  With any printer.

FWIW, YMMV.

Best,

Mark
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2019, 01:59:26 pm »



I would love to have someone make me a print from my monochrome file to see about that. I’ll be glad to pay for it. I’ll believe they have matched the new Epsons and Canons when I see direct comparisons from the same file, much less the highlight rendition of K7 without even one light black.

I don’t know about the new  Canons because I haven’t had access to one, but Epson has come a long way with black and white quality in the Surecolor Series and the quality of totally neutralized very sharp results from even the little P 800 out of QTR. Problem is QTR is not usable on the very recent 12 color Epsons that I would probably want. So then you are looking at Studio Print.

A agree about pixel peeping zooms. It has no value to me. Those files he posted could have been equalized through good sharpening it looks like to me. I’ve done too many prints of my own on the Z3200 and the Epson 7890 with oem inks to worry about that comparison. In real world work they are very close with a slight edge to Epson with very small prints in my experience on some papers. What is important now is what the new printers do.

John



There is no way any other current printer can improve over the Z9+ in terms of Black and White, and it will be a photo finish in the area of color.

FWIW, YMMV.

Best,

Mark
[/quote]
Logged

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2019, 03:03:58 pm »


I would love to have someone make me a print from my monochrome file to see about that. I’ll be glad to pay for it. I’ll believe they have matched the new Epsons and Canons when I see direct comparisons from the same file, much less the highlight rendition of K7 without even one light black.

John -

Send me three 13 x 19 sheets of whatever paper you want, and the digital B&W file, and I'll print your image for you:
1. Custom paper name
2. Calibration
3. 464 patch standard Z9+ ICC profile
4. Print

Then I'll send it back to you. This will represent the base line of the Z9+ ability to print B+W. (Obviously larger profiles will have better results but I want you to see what the Z9+ can do natively.)

Best,

Mark
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2019, 04:18:44 pm »

Mark,

I appreciate it.

I’ll put that paper and file in the mail to you.

I do realize that when the mechanism for making larger targets is worked out we will see some improvements.

Can’t help but be super curious as to how this new inkset is going to shake out.

I’m one of the odd characters that is more picky about bw than color.

John





John -

Send me three 13 x 19 sheets of whatever paper you want, and the digital B&W file, and I'll print your image for you:
1. Custom paper name
2. Calibration
3. 464 patch standard Z9+ ICC profile
4. Print

Then I'll send it back to you. This will represent the base line of the Z9+ ability to print B+W. (Obviously larger profiles will have better results but I want you to see what the Z9+ can do natively.)

Best,

Mark
Logged

MfAlab

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
  • Modern Fine Art printing laboratory
    • HSU fine print
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2019, 11:42:19 pm »

The precision of the way the ink drops are rendered and the resulting image quality is greatly effected by the number of patches used in making the profile and the media used. How many patches were you using? Of course you replace heads occasionally. That’s the nature of the system and the heads are very inexpensive and don’t clogg.

As to how the Z9 holds up in this area of resolution and whether they can be run in bidirectional mode effectively will be interesting to see. I suspect Epson is in first place followed by Canon, then HP.

But we’ll see. Clearly catching up in the speed department was a major concern for HP or they would have been completely out of the running.

John

I had used some RIPs e.g., GMG, ErgoSoft, EFI Fiery, Onyx. Now mainly use Caldera. I made my own charts for every steps to optimize high resolution and big gamut inkjet prints in light ink transition, linearization, total ink limit and ICC. The biggest ICC chart I made is 6720 patches measured by a barbieri Spectro LFP. So, yes, I have a little understanding how to fine tune a inkjet print. But we are talking about new Z9+, sorry for my Z3200 experience mess up the discussion of this topic.

I'm used to evaluate a print, or a paper and printer, by science and logic. Perception or feeling is assistant but not protagonist. That's why I pointed HP has some weakness may not be improved in new printer. If that offends anyone, I apologize. It is all trade-off, there is no perfect printer. HP is good at ink saving and longevity. Epson has biggest gamut and finest detail. Canon lent me a printer for testing several weeks. I love it's an operator friendly machine in many ways. It depends on which is most important to you. Again, it's trade-off. I can accept some weakness and work with it, but I won't call it doesn't exist.
Logged
Kang-Wei Hsu
digital printing & color management
fixative tests preview: https://reurl.cc/OVGDmr

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2019, 12:29:40 am »

Kang,

Are you in Mainland?

I totally understand where your coming from. You are more of an imaging and color scientist than I am for sure. My background is in other realms of visual art. I only learn as much science and tech as I have to.

I agree that we are all facing trade offs and new innovations in all of these platforms present new things to consider, some matter more to one person and others matter more to an other, with a different set of requirements for a different set of objectives. It’s very complicated, equally involving technology, commerce, and art.

I weekly use several inksets with all three of the major brands of printers and honestly I can say I love them all and can make great lasting prints with them all.

The factors that we have discussed, dither resolution, ink longevity, gamut, black and white capability, speed, hardware dependability in the long term, software reliability, ease of profiling, clogging of print heads, cost of replacing heads, future support, all play a role.

Since none of these companies can do everything perfectly the best we can do is share our own experiences with the little knowledge we accumulate from actual real world printmaking.

We are lucky to live in a time when someone in Atlanta Georgia, Florida, The Netherlands, China, Brazil, Boston, and many other places can compare notes about our routines and tests, using the same or similar methods without leaving our studios.p. In that respect we are very lucky. Years ago on sites like this we shared actual prints with each other that made things much more understandable. Today we try to do it with words, and that has its limitations.

John




I had used some RIPs e.g., GMG, ErgoSoft, EFI Fiery, Onyx. Now mainly use Caldera. I made my own charts for every steps to optimize high resolution and big gamut inkjet prints in light ink transition, linearization, total ink limit and ICC. The biggest ICC chart I made is 6720 patches measured by a barbieri Spectro LFP. So, yes, I have a little understanding how to fine tune a inkjet print. But we are talking about new Z9+, sorry for my Z3200 experience mess up the discussion of this topic.

I'm used to evaluate a print, or a paper and printer, by science and logic. Perception or feeling is assistant but not protagonist. That's why I pointed HP has some weakness may not be improved in new printer. If that offends anyone, I apologize. It is all trade-off, there is no perfect printer. HP is good at ink saving and longevity. Epson has biggest gamut and finest detail. Canon lent me a printer for testing several weeks. I love it's an operator friendly machine in many ways. It depends on which is most important to you. Again, it's trade-off. I can accept some weakness and work with it, but I won't call it doesn't exist.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 12:42:23 am by deanwork »
Logged

MfAlab

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
  • Modern Fine Art printing laboratory
    • HSU fine print
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2019, 03:19:05 am »

Kang,

Are you in Mainland?

I totally understand where your coming from. You are more of an imaging and color scientist than I am for sure. My background is in other realms of visual art. I only learn as much science and tech as I have to.

I agree that we are all facing trade offs and new innovations in all of these platforms present new things to consider, some matter more to one person and others matter more to an other, with a different set of requirements for a different set of objectives. It’s very complicated, equally involving technology, commerce, and art.

Nope, I'm not in China. I'm Taiwanese. (BTW, "Kang Wei" is forename)

Thank you for that kind words, I study and research just for hobby. Although My job is marketing and selling inkjet products, it doesn't need too much serious knowledge about color science. (ashamed)

Lets focus on Z9+. Look forward to see some prints and data sharing.
Logged
Kang-Wei Hsu
digital printing & color management
fixative tests preview: https://reurl.cc/OVGDmr

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2019, 05:09:10 am »

I've been using HP Z Series printers since they first came out (still have original Z3100 but don't use it).

(snip)

FWIW, YMMV.

Best,

Mark

Mark,

The video is very well done from my perspective. I usually avoid them as I am more a reader. I like to set my own tempo and skip text where it is less interesting. Voice over and music in videos are usually of the shouting kind. Nothing of that in your video.

Your video and the discussions here convinced me of the main HP Designjet Z9+ qualities. For me there are some practical things to resolve before I make a decision. The profiling target size will be solved in time I expect. Pricing here is reasonable given the integrated spectrometer + profiling software like it was with the other Z's. On top the universally usable print head, which I noticed early on as being a big step forward in maintenance service and costs. The more when your shop is hours or days away from the main distribution/service centers, not a problem here though.

Still intrigued whether the head holds any fluids while packaged, I would not expect that and otherwise I can not understand the technology. I am also curious about the two sealed ink slots at the left side, the optional gloss enhancer ink has been discussed but is there more to be expected? Also is there any sign that it measures the media transport optically the way the Z6xxx printers do it?

I think the spindles have changed for this new generation of printers. Pity as I use 6 spindles for my Z3200. making media changes easier. I have quite a stock of inks now, mainly in 772 carts so I can continue with the Z3200 for some time to come. And it ain't broken yet..... For the volume printed these days I do not need a faster printer, semi pensioner that I am.

On the print qualities like smoothness and detail. I recall with the introduction of the first Canon iPF models and the HP Z3100 around 2006 that there were more comments on the coarseness of the prints made with the Canons, while it used a uniform 4 picoliter droplet, than on the Z3100 that had several inks squirted with 6 picoliter and the rest with 4 picoliter droplets. The Epson wide formats only use the 3.5 picoliter droplet throughout at the highest (and slowest) printer quality setting, otherwise it adds the bigger droplets as well. So not that much difference and certainly not when the paper surface does not make the highest resolution choice worthwhile. The next Canon iPF models had better weaving/stochastic addressing of the droplets and nobody complained anymore, droplet size still 4 picoliter. Epson responded with a wider set of inks in their next generations, the gamut of the Canons and HPs did not go unnoticed. I did not read the HP Z9+ head specs and ink channel differences thoroughly but with the universal head for all channels usable I would expect it can use the dual droplet size for all ink channels.

I think in general that the development of how the droplets are arranged in cells on the media to represent image pixels has been fantastic over the two decades I used wide formats. The IQ limitation today is in the expected printer's speed. Droplet size at 3.5 or bigger can still be precisely addressed at those speeds and are small enough not to be seen by the average human. Thermal heads with their higher quantity of nozzles per ink channel can easily compete with the piëzo heads heads higher rate of firing + their variety of droplet sizes.

Drivers and print applications also improved much over the two decades. we learned our lessons in this forum on what to upload to the OEM driver or RIP, which resampling methods can be used and how to deal with sharpening for print. I will not exchange my workflow with Qimage Ultimate + HP OEM driver for a RIP as I had a bad experience of the implementation of the Z3100/Z3200 in the Wasatch SoftRip. It simply did not do an UCR as thorough like the HP OEM drivers had and the image quality suffered by that; neutrals less neutral, more bleeding and besides IQ the ink consumption was higher. Getting N-channel printer/media profiling correct for/in a RIP is an art and science thing in itself. I asked Wasatch Inc to do it again and it became worse. I think there are companies like Ergosoft capable and willing  to do this but I am less impressed by shops that do this in house.

What I appreciated most of all in the Z's has been the consistency of the prints over time. There are critical customers that ordered the same prints for 10 years and I could deliver them the same print every time. Onboard calibration praised, Qimage's interactice jobs log too. If it went wrong it was usually the media with a quality issue or no longer available. Yesterday I had banding in a black print, I really can not recall when that has happened the last time. Cleaned all the heads and while I expected that I should have to replace the black head as it must be something like 3 years old, it just recovered. I think a thin string from cleaning my hot 3D printer head was transferred to the media roll when it was put on the spindle, user's fault. I have a spare HP  GB Z3200 head from 2014, I did not find a reason to use it. The printer is still going strong, repeats my customers prints fine, the main reasons a Z9+ purchase may wait.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Logged

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 04:07:23 pm »

Mark,

The video is very well done from my perspective. I usually avoid them as I am more a reader. I like to set my own tempo and skip text where it is less interesting. Voice over and music in videos are usually of the shouting kind. Nothing of that in your video.

Your video and the discussions here convinced me of the main HP Designjet Z9+ qualities. For me there are some practical things to resolve before I make a decision. The profiling target size will be solved in time I expect. Pricing here is reasonable given the integrated spectrometer + profiling software like it was with the other Z's. On top the universally usable print head, which I noticed early on as being a big step forward in maintenance service and costs. The more when your shop is hours or days away from the main distribution/service centers, not a problem here though.

Thanks Ernst,
Everyone is taking a wait and see approach to all of the printers it seems, these days.
Which is fine, of course.

I had an opportunity to film an HP technician taking apart a Z9+ to change out a hard drive and the JetDirect card.
I was amazed at what a jump in quality the Z9+ is over the Z3200.  The entire power supply, hard drive and ethernet card are all tied together in a large rectangular box that looks like a PC carcas.  Unlike the Z3200, where 2 thumbscrews loosens the "blade" containing the hard drive and Lan board, easily removed, the Z9+ is a horse of another color entirely. I suspect it is not as easy to work on as the Z3200 printers are, yet time will tell of course. It's my hope that these printers, being more robust might not require the kind of fixes the Z3200 has.

In regard to your question about the generic or universal printheads, they do ship with fluid in them, and they have an expiration date. 

I pulled a Gloss Enhancer / Gray printhead and did a stamp-test on it.  Very different from a Z3200 printhead - seems like much smaller nozzles.
(the blotch was significantly smaller).

The Universal print head gloss enhancer stamp-tests similar to the Z3200, but the gray does not show up.

The comparison of the stamp-tests is below - the cyan is a stamp-test of a Z3200 printhead with LM not working.
That is how Z3200 printheads working correctly stamp-test - lots of ink flowing, conversely, none.

Not sure what the fluid is in the Z9+ printhead Ernst - you would guess better than me I think.

Hope this answers some of your questions, Ernst.

Best,

Mark



« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 04:20:20 pm by Mark Lindquist »
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2019, 04:17:37 pm »

Here is the case containing power supply, hard drive, enclosed fan, Jet Direct card and Main PCA board with cable routing.

Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

John Nollendorfs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 623
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2019, 04:22:34 pm »

Mark:
That sure simplifies servicing and trouble shooting! Just swap out one module, and your problems are solved! ;-)
Logged

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2019, 04:35:01 pm »

Mark:
That sure simplifies servicing and trouble shooting! Just swap out one module, and your problems are solved! ;-)

It would seem that way, but I think HP expects their service technicians to unscrew 20 screws and replace components in the field.
In some cases they could do what you suggest, but I'm not sure yet - too early to tell.
Mark
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

Peter McLennan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4690
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2019, 07:48:57 pm »

Are the sheet loading procedures improved with the Z9?
That's my main peeve with my 3200.  Loading sheets can result in annoying skew errors.
Logged

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2019, 08:04:36 pm »

Are the sheet loading procedures improved with the Z9?
That's my main peeve with my 3200.  Loading sheets can result in annoying skew errors.

Hi Peter,

No, and yes.

Go here to see my easy fix to make sheet loading on the Z9+ easy:

Load sheets easy on z9+

There are some photos and an explanation there.

Pretty much an improvement, but it’s a new and different machine.

Mark
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

Peter McLennan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4690
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2019, 08:20:05 pm »

Thanks, Mark.
Logged

kuau

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 220
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2019, 12:26:36 pm »

I’m sold. My 2009 Z3200ps 24” though still running, the power supply fan is driving me nuts and I am not skilled enough to replace it.
I’m in the USA can someone recommend a good HP dealer that can help me out and of course give me a good price?
Lastly I assume if I am printing using Photo Black that the GE upgrade is necessary ??

Thanks
Logged
__________________________________________________________________________
Leica S006, Leica SL HP Z3200 PS Printer
http://www.kuau.com

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2019, 01:08:45 pm »

I’m sold. My 2009 Z3200ps 24” though still running, the power supply fan is driving me nuts and I am not skilled enough to replace it.
I’m in the USA can someone recommend a good HP dealer that can help me out and of course give me a good price?
Lastly I assume if I am printing using Photo Black that the GE upgrade is necessary ??

Thanks

Perhaps buying direct from HP would be a good idea?  I'm sure IT supplies has the printer or can get it.  There's also B&H, Adorama and Amazon.
As far as getting a good price, to my knowledge, there have not yet been any sales.

I recommend the Gloss Enhancer upgrade and it be installed at the same time as the other cartridges.  It comes with startup carts, so probably a good idea to get a full set of inks as well.

Hope this becomes a good replacement for you.

Best,

Mark

Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

kuau

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 220
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2019, 01:19:45 pm »

Thanks Mark,

I am always looking for a deal lol.... I would purchase from HP direct yet i hate to have to pay sales tax on the unit. That leaves me with Adorama I guess...

Forgot to ask. Which papers are you running on the new Z9 for B&W and Color....
Logged
__________________________________________________________________________
Leica S006, Leica SL HP Z3200 PS Printer
http://www.kuau.com

Mark Lindquist

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1596
  • it’s not about the photos we take - it’s the ones we leave
    • LINDQUIST STUDIOS
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2019, 02:01:04 pm »

Thanks Mark,

I am always looking for a deal lol.... I would purchase from HP direct yet i hate to have to pay sales tax on the unit. That leaves me with Adorama I guess...

Forgot to ask. Which papers are you running on the new Z9 for B&W and Color....

Hi Steven - I just answered your questions that you asked on the video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vDan9Ijtyg which also answer your questions asked here.

There's a lot of info in my response - hope it helps.  Also, yes, I hear you - it's important to get the best prices possible.

Best,

Mark
Logged
Mark Lindquist
http://z3200.com, http://MarkLindquistPhotography.com
Lindquist Studios.com

kuau

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 220
Re: New HP Z9+ Evaluation Video
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2019, 06:04:48 pm »

Thanks Mark, I did indeed see your response...
Logged
__________________________________________________________________________
Leica S006, Leica SL HP Z3200 PS Printer
http://www.kuau.com
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up