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Author Topic: Violence in Ecuador  (Read 2266 times)

RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2019, 10:47:25 am »

Keith, you're like the rest of us. You do some beautiful work and some not so beautiful work, and you can call it any damn thing you want to call it. In the end art always has to speak for itself.

Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2019, 10:54:08 am »

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but okay.
I admit the link is far fetched.

Perception of things is in continuous change. When something (p.e. the definition of a genre) is not following the world in change, it is like Latin: dead.
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RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2019, 11:12:13 am »

Two questions, Ivo: (1) Has Impressionism changed? (2) Is Impressionism dead?

Two more: (1) Has photojournalism changed? (2) Is photojournalism dead?

Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2019, 11:21:32 am »

Two questions, Ivo: (1) Has Impressionism changed? (2) Is Impressionism dead?

Two more: (1) Has photojournalism changed? (2) Is photojournalism dead?

Is this a rhetorical? Must be.
It’s a skewed comparison, but I’m curious how you are going to reply on whatever I reply.
Question one: no and yes
Question two: yes and no

Figure out the outcome for street photography without change.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 11:28:51 am by Ivo_B »
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RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2019, 11:55:54 am »

Okay, Ivo. I'll buy the first answer.

Regarding the second, tell me how you think photojournalism has changed (and don't tell me about digital cameras or darkrooms, etc.).

And yes. Street photography has changed. We do it with digital cameras nowadays.

KLaban

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2019, 11:59:52 am »

Keith, you're like the rest of us. You do some beautiful work and some not so beautiful work, and you can call it any damn thing you want to call it. In the end art always has to speak for itself.

And happy to be so, Russ.
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RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2019, 12:07:32 pm »

Me too.

Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2019, 01:50:32 pm »

Okay, Ivo. I'll buy the first answer.

Regarding the second, tell me how you think photojournalism has changed (and don't tell me about digital cameras or darkrooms, etc.).

And yes. Street photography has changed. We do it with digital cameras nowadays.

Photojournalism is not a sole property of photojournalists anymore. News agencies reach out to eyewitnesses with iPhones streaming to social media like periscope, Twitter, etc.
There are a lot documentaries about how journalism changed in the last decades. Check it out.

Street photography changed enormously the last decades, because society became more complex and the human behavior/ social environments are in continuous change as well.

The rules of street photography are set in its environment, not in an obsolete dogma.
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RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2019, 02:41:46 pm »

Okay, Ivo. First you did exactly what I said I didn’t want to hear about. You told me that some photojournalism is now done with cell phones. So what. Some photojournalism – in fact most – is now done with digital cameras. That’s a difference in equipment, not objective. Photojournalism always has worked for “social media.” Ever see a copy of Saturday Evening Post? And where are these “documentaries” about changes in photojournalism?

As far as street photography is concerned, all you gave me is a personal opinion – a generalization. Because “society became more complex?” Give me a concrete example of what you mean. Not an opinion or a generalization. An actual example. There’s no “dogma” involved in street photography. Its “changes” came about from people who never learned what it actually is.

Rob C

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2019, 02:47:52 pm »

When I was doing Photojournalism 🙄, I was in Brussel for an exhibition of Brancusi.

Something to think about:

On this occasion, I'd be drawn to agreeing with the critics.

Craft ability, i.e. the ability to work with tools in order to fashion objects does not imply that doing so is the same thing as creating an art object. A series of gross, shiny penises (peni? :-) ) is not, of itself, art, any more than a set of alloy wheels needs be art, but some, indeed, are works of art, though not the ones on my current car.

It's the old story: sometimes you can create art, but often you just create product. We photographers, if honest, know that only too well.

Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2019, 03:00:49 pm »

Okay, Ivo. First you did exactly what I said I didn’t want to hear about. You told me that some photojournalism is now done with cell phones. So what. Some photojournalism – in fact most – is now done with digital cameras. That’s a difference in equipment, not objective. Photojournalism always has worked for “social media.” Ever see a copy of Saturday Evening Post? And where are these “documentaries” about changes in photojournalism?

As far as street photography is concerned, all you gave me is a personal opinion – a generalization. Because “society became more complex?” Give me a concrete example of what you mean. Not an opinion or a generalization. An actual example. There’s no “dogma” involved in street photography. Its “changes” came about from people who never learned what it actually is.

I’m not going further in discussion, Russ. Reason: you disqualify all arguments to your taste, not to their validity.
If you don’t want to hear arguments, just put your fingers in your ears, that works quite well. 🙄
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Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2019, 03:02:47 pm »

On this occasion, I'd be drawn to agreeing with the critics.

Craft ability, i.e. the ability to work with tools in order to fashion objects does not imply that doing so is the same thing as creating an art object. A series of gross, shiny penises (peni? :-) ) is not, of itself, art, any more than a set of alloy wheels needs be art, but some, indeed, are works of art, though not the ones on my current car.

It's the old story: sometimes you can create art, but often you just create product. We photographers, if honest, know that only too well.

O Rob, did you ever saw Brancusi’s work in real?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2019, 03:06:41 pm »

O Rob, did you ever saw Brancusi’s work in real?

Must be a vibrant (vibrating?) experience ;)

Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2019, 04:00:20 pm »

Must be a vibrant (vibrating?) experience ;)

honi soit qui mal y pense

The ‘princess X’ is a sculptured rendering of Marie Bonaparte.
It’s an absolute astonishing piece of art.

Next time you visit Paris, check out Brancusi’s atelier/ living room in front of centre Pompidou.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 04:03:35 pm by Ivo_B »
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RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2019, 04:30:06 pm »

I’m not going further in discussion, Russ. Reason: you disqualify all arguments to your taste, not to their validity.
If you don’t want to hear arguments, just put your fingers in your ears, that works quite well. 🙄

In other words, Ivo, you can't come up with even one specific example. It's all talk.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 04:34:58 pm by RSL »
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Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2019, 04:57:03 pm »

In other words, Ivo, you can't come up with even one specific example. It's all talk.

You disqualify everything what’s not in your taste, try this with others, not me.
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Rob C

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2019, 05:16:23 pm »

O Rob, did you ever saw Brancusi’s work in real?

I'm afraid not; however, would something well made mean it's art? That's not to say he didn't make art too, but the stuff on the page in your link doesn't strike me as being art... more experiment in direction.

Rob

RSL

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2019, 05:59:58 pm »

You disqualify everything what’s not in your taste, try this with others, not me.

As usual, Ivo. You try to turn around and run from the question. The question is simple, and should be easy to answer if you actually believe what you're saying. If you think street photography has changed, tell me what you think the changes are. Give me an actual example of what you've called an evolution. Considering your position on this question, that should be easy.

Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2019, 01:18:36 am »

I'm afraid not; however, would something well made mean it's art? That's not to say he didn't make art too, but the stuff on the page in your link doesn't strike me as being art... more experiment in direction.

Rob

That’s the problem of having ‘an opinion’ driven by the position in the crew instead of the facts.

How to experience a sculpture is different than a photograph. A sculpture is not 2D reproducible.

As example, the reactions on the work of Brancusi tells a lot about the openness of mind. I do understand why some peoples need stringent genre rules or otherwise getting upset and in panic.

There is a huge difference in recognizing a genre and feeling art. The first is a nice handle for everything around art, but no meaning to art itself.
(That said, genre classification is not the same as a movement in art)

« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 01:28:03 am by Ivo_B »
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Ivo_B

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Re: Violence in Ecuador
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2019, 01:22:25 am »

As usual, Ivo. You try to turn around and run from the question. The question is simple, and should be easy to answer if you actually believe what you're saying. If you think street photography has changed, tell me what you think the changes are. Give me an actual example of what you've called an evolution. Considering your position on this question, that should be easy.

In a normal discussion, I would bring up a long answer, Russ. But in a conversation with you, it doesn’t matter, because you disqualify everything as not street when it doesn’t obey to your idea.
Doing this, you disqualify yourself as a conversation partner on this subject.

If you would be in the mood for a real conversation, I would be happy to join. But you are not. You set up a trap and elicit your conversation partner in the hope you can get him in your trap.
And in the occasion you are clearly pulling the short side of the rope, you bail out.

Try this with others, not with me.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 03:35:35 am by Ivo_B »
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