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Author Topic: Incursions into Syria  (Read 2162 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2019, 11:22:14 pm »

There is one primary reason we have and the kingdom allows, US military presence on Saudi soil - make Iran hesitate endangering the oil and chemicals supply to the West and others through the Strait of Hormuz.

If there were no vital resources there, we would not be in the region.

Picot-Sykes stirred things up a hundred years ago. Oil in the area raised the stakes. Add in the historical tensions between the Arabs and the Persians, the creation of Israel, and the Kurd’s fight for an independent state and you are where we are today.
Why aren't European troops there in Saudi Arabia?  They're more dependent on M.E. oil they we are since we've gained oil independence, no thanks to Obama.  Frankly, the ME is a mess.  How do you pick sides with this cast of characters?  One's worse than the other.  They all hate each other.  They'll be fighting for the next two centuries.  We've spent and bled enough.  Let them figure it all out among themselves.  IBM's Big Blue chess computer couldn't figure out the next move we should make.  Why bother? 

degrub

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2019, 12:19:43 am »

Remember the ‘oil shocks’ of the ‘70s when OPEC got their act together ?
A large part of the world’s economy depends on the smooth flow of oil out of the Middle East.
That’s why.
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Ivo_B

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2019, 04:36:28 am »

Indeed, electing an unfit person into power does have consequences. Being complicit, comes to mind. Potentially 300,000 displaced people, potential escape of 10s of thousands ISIS detainees, revitalizing of terrorism (ISIL/ISIS was not defeated, they were just driven out of their self-proclaimed caliphate), ...

And all that human suffering just to distract from an impeachment procedure, and trying to win an election.

I’m staying away from populist guff  (other than about photography 🙄) but I have some sour taste in my mouth after reading this.
It would be good if not all discussions turn out in a Trump bashing exercise.

When are You Americans start to understand that the equator doesn’t run trough your crack?

Mind your own inland business and leave the world dealing with themselves.

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Rob C

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2019, 06:49:39 am »

I’m staying away from populist guff  (other than about photography 🙄) but I have some sour taste in my mouth after reading this.
It would be good if not all discussions turn out in a Trump bashing exercise.

When are You Americans start to understand that the equator doesn’t run trough your crack?

Mind your own inland business and leave the world dealing with themselves.


Remember where WW2 would have taken Europe without American intervention?

That settled, the further battle would have been between a Nazi Europe and the USSR.

Be grateful, not arrogant.

Rob

Ivo_B

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2019, 07:02:49 am »


Remember where WW2 would have taken Europe without American intervention?

That settled, the further battle would have been between a Nazi Europe and the USSR.

Be grateful, not arrogant.

Rob

Gratefulness is not an eternal achievement, Rob.

About WW2, you know the ‘naughty document’ story, do you?


« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 07:14:13 am by Ivo_B »
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Ivo_B

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2019, 07:25:16 am »

BTW it is not serious to misuse a sociopolitical situation of past century in the world complexity of today.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2019, 08:05:07 am »

The whole Middle East problem is easily explained in David Fromkin's wonderful book, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East" that covers the immediate aftermath of WWI and how it all went wrong in creating the nation states of the region.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2019, 09:32:01 am »

The whole Middle East problem is easily explained in David Fromkin's wonderful book, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East" that covers the immediate aftermath of WWI and how it all went wrong in creating the nation states of the region.
I think I read that book when I saw Lawrence of Arabia.  8)  Well, I think we know that the problems were the breakup of European colonialism there and the collapse of the Ottoman empire.  Making nation-states out of bunch of tribes is still causing trouble.  You've got Erdogan in Turkey who's a dictator, the tribes in Afghanistan who've been killing each other for years, Syria has Assad another murderer and about forty different groups from nationalists, Kurds looking for a homeland, terrorists, and infiltrators who all hate each other, Iraq with the Kurds, Sunnis and Shias who also have hated each other since Muhammad walked the sands, Israel with their nukes and the Palestinians also looking for a homeland, the religious inspired mullahs in Iran, the Saudi King or is he still a prince who strangles and dismembers his enemies.  The Arabs hate the Persians who hate the Arabs and everyone hates the Jews.  What a mess and cast of characters.


But does America have to be the one to resolve it? Going into Iraq to give them democracy or for whatever reason created a worse mess.  And while the SHias finally got their just desserts, they're killing each other in Baghdad all over again.  Why?  Because the government is corrupt.  Well, who would have thought that would happen? And while I think we had to go after al Qaeda after they attacked us on 9-11, it looks like after 18 years we're going to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban will take over again.  Well, as long as they don;t come back over here, it's not our business.  In fact, let the entire ME sort things out themselves. 


Worth mentioning especially here that Lawrence of Arabia was one of the most beautifully photographed movies of all time. David Lean did a superb job.  I watched it again recently on TCM (Turner Classic Movies).  But Comcast my cable and internet supplier just took TCM away from my cable plan and now want extra money for that channel.  But that's another thread.  >:(

degrub

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2019, 10:35:29 am »

Saw it on the extra wide screen in theater when they re-released the directors cut a few years back. Ok, more than a few years...
Seeing it a home does not compare..at all. WOW.

Heavily romanticized story. More fiction than fact. Shot in Morocco btw. But well done shooting.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2019, 11:05:39 am »

characters.
Worth mentioning especially here that Lawrence of Arabia was one of the most beautifully photographed movies of all time. David Lean did a superb job.

I think you’ll find that it was a man named Freddie Young who photographed Lawrence of Arabia.

He also photographed Ryan’s Daughter and Doctor Zhivago, winning Oscars for all three.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2019, 11:52:47 am »

 Here's the whole take on the movie, locations photography etc. If you read the article, you see why nothing will ever be settled in the ME. From the section on filming:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_of_Arabia_(film)#Filming

"...The desert scenes were shot in Jordan and Morocco, as well as Almería and Doñana in Spain. It was originally to be filmed entirely in Jordan; the government of King Hussein was extremely helpful in providing logistical assistance, location scouting, transportation, and extras. Hussein himself visited the set several times during production and maintained cordial relationships with cast and crew. The only tension occurred when Jordanian officials learned that English actor Henry Oscar did not speak Arabic but would be filmed reciting the Qur'an. Permission was granted only on condition that an imam be present to ensure that there were no misquotations..."

"...Jordan banned the film for what was felt to be a disrespectful portrayal of Arab culture.[11] Egypt, Omar Sharif's home country, was the only Arab nation to give the film a wide release, where it became a success through the endorsement of President Gamal Abdel Nasser, who appreciated the film's depiction of Arab nationalism..."

Also in the link is the explanation of the Director's Cut edition.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2019, 11:56:15 am »

I think you’ll find that it was a man named Freddie Young who photographed Lawrence of Arabia.

He also photographed Ryan’s Daughter and Doctor Zhivago, winning Oscars for all three.
I never saw Ryan's Daughter, but Dr. Zhivago numerous times, another great movie as was the Bridge over the River Kwai.  I like simple good guy and bad guy movies.  Easy to follow and you know who to hate.  And love. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2019, 12:40:58 pm »

I never saw Ryan's Daughter,

Required viewing for photographers.  :)

Quote
another great movie as was the Bridge over the River Kwai.

To further muddy the foreign movie waters: photographed largely in Sri Lanka.
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Ivo_B

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2019, 02:43:28 pm »

Erdogan is elected, just as the US president.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2019, 03:55:51 pm »

I never saw Ryan's Daughter, but Dr. Zhivago numerous times, another great movie as was the Bridge over the River Kwai.  I like simple good guy and bad guy movies.  Easy to follow and you know who to hate.  And love.

FYI, that is one of the most historically inaccurate moving ever made. 
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Joe Kitchen
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"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2019, 07:11:33 pm »

Erdogan is elected, just as the US president.

So was Putin, and his opponents were in jail (or worse).
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2019, 12:13:25 am »

Looks like the Kurds made a deal with Assad.  So now we have the Kurds who have grabbed Syrian territory being attacked by Turkey and now asking for protection by the Syrians.  What are the Russians going to do?  Help defend Syria against the Turks?  Putin will wish he didn't get involved.  The Turks will cancel their order for the Russian S400 missiles. Turkey has to kill any ISIS who might be on the run.  And other independent groups in Syria who've been fighting will probably keep their heads down until the dust settles.  I figure there will soon be another status quo arrangement and the fighting will lull.  Erdogan will keep pushing for his 20 mile buffer zone to keep the Kurd terrorists out.  Kurds will move south into their other territory ceding the buffer zone to Turkey.  Assad wasn't strong enough to take it back from the Kurds.  He won't be strong enough to take it back from Turkey and will agree to the buffer zone as a good idea after all.  Americans will come home riding in American passenger planes rather than any more body bags. 

https://www.apnews.com/7e90fd08a89e49d9bcae6a85a131a64a

jeremyrh

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2019, 01:24:55 am »

Looks like the Kurds made a deal with Assad.  So now we have the Kurds who have grabbed Syrian territory being attacked by Turkey and now asking for protection by the Syrians.  What are the Russians going to do?  Help defend Syria against the Turks?  Putin will wish he didn't get involved. 

Putin is rubbing his hands - Christmas came early. Again.  Trump's foreign policy is the gift that keeps on giving.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2019, 01:26:51 am »

So was Putin, and his opponents were in jail (or worse).

Reminds me of a dark joke:

Prisoner in Turkish jail:  Have you got this book?
Prison librarian: No, but we've got the author.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2019, 01:43:33 am »

Putin is rubbing his hands - Christmas came early. Again.  Trump's foreign policy is the gift that keeps on giving.
We spent trillions and lost thousands since we went into the Middle East.  The Russians are welcome to it.  Merry Christmas.

PS:  They can have Afghanistan back again too. 
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