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Author Topic: Incursions into Syria  (Read 6294 times)

Rob C

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Incursions into Syria
« on: October 11, 2019, 08:00:11 am »

Five people stabbed today in a Manchester (England) shopping centre; terror squad in action.

Hunch? Excitement and rejuvenation within certain groups with an eye on the possible escape of thousands of IS "prisoners" currently guarded by the Kurds.

And there we are - actions have consequences.

RSL

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 02:36:32 pm »

Careful, Bart, you'll break both legs jumping to conclusions like that.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 05:23:50 pm »

And all that human suffering just to distract from an impeachment procedure, and trying to win an election.

>>  Careful, Bart, you'll break both legs jumping to conclusions like that.

If it wasn't for that reason, that it's just another stupid decision.
Or because of a sleepless, tweet-filled night.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 09:11:19 pm »

Why don't your countries send a brigade or two and defend the Kurds for the next thirty or so years?  Why does it have to be Americans who have to always bleed and die?  Let's see how you feel when your sons are sent home in body bags from interminable wars in the Middle East.  These people seem to get along before we entered the fray against ISIS.  Somehow they'll figure it all out now that we're leaving.  It's not our problem. 

faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 09:39:34 pm »

Seems Trump is sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia because he no longer wishes to have troops in the Middle East. So much for bringing the boys home and letting the Middle East countries figure it out among themselves. That lasted all of three days. Foreign policy by whim.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 10:24:00 am by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 09:43:55 pm »

Seems Trump is sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia because he no longer wishes to have troops in the Middle East. So much for bringing the boys home and letting the Middle East countries figure it out among themselves.
If they start dying there, he should get them the hell out of there.

LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 11:17:41 pm »

Why don't your countries send a brigade or two and defend the Kurds for the next thirty or so years?  Why does it have to be Americans who have to always bleed and die?  Let's see how you feel when your sons are sent home in body bags from interminable wars in the Middle East.  These people seem to get along before we entered the fray against ISIS.  Somehow they'll figure it all out now that we're leaving.  It's not our problem.

One has to worry that because of the hasty decision to leave Syria and a large number of released/escaped ISIS fighters due to Turkish attack, many more lives (American and others) could be lost. But a long term strategic thinking was never one of the mental capabilities of the current commander of chief.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 11:36:52 pm »

One has to worry that because of the hasty decision to leave Syria and a large number of released/escaped ISIS fighters due to Turkish attack, many more lives (American and others) could be lost. But a long term strategic thinking was never one of the mental capabilities of the current commander of chief.   
Actually, Les, Trump has consistently over the decades stated America has been involved in too many wars and foreign adventures we have no business being in.  The anti-Trump liberal Democrat media Americans and others get their news from have presented him as being a warmonger because it fits their arguments to diminish him and make his policies look risky.  He would get us into wars, they say.  They have been mistaken and biased in their presentations.  He's pulling us out of Syria and trying real hard to not get us involved in other military adventures.  He's trying to get us out of 18 years of fighting in Afghanistan.  He campaigned on that. 

Of course, as Commander-in-Chief and president, he understands we have to maintain a strong military posture.  He's done so by building up our military which had been diminished by the last administration.  Yet, he's very cautious where he puts our troops.  The Middle East is a swamp, a quicksand where you sink into your own blood.  Let the people living there settle their own disputes.  As long as they keep it over there, we have little interest in getting involved. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2019, 08:30:57 am »

The Kurdish betrayal in October 2019 is not unlike the Munich Agreement in September 1938. Eighty years ago, Britain, Italy and France naively and cowardly assumed that sacrificing Czechoslovakia and appeasing Hitler would prevent the war. Neville Chamberlain declared ‘Peace for our time’ after Germany, Britain, France and Italy reached a settlement allowing Nazi Germany to annex parts of Czechoslovakia.

Quote
The Czechoslovak government hoped that Britain and France would come to its assistance in the event of an invasion, but British Prime Minister Chamberlain was intent on averting war. Between 15 and 30 September he made three trips to Germany to see Hitler. The final one in Munich resulted in large swathes of Czechoslovakia coming under Nazi rule. Britain and France would not support any Czech resistance.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2018/sep/21/munich-chamberlain-hitler-appeasement-1938

One has to wonder whether Erdogan simply told Trump - "We are going in, you'd better get your boys out" or whether Trump got his marching orders directly from Kremlin. Either way, enabling the Turkish invasion can't be blamed solely at USA, the EU is also complicit in this abhorrent massacre. The decision to throw the Kurds under the bus was not a good one, and the prognosis can't be good for Kurdistan, Turkey and the rest of the world.

kers

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 09:33:37 am »

Actually, Les, Trump has consistently over the decades stated America has been involved in too many wars and foreign adventures we have no business being in.  The anti-Trump liberal Democrat media Americans and others get their news from have presented him as being a warmonger because it fits their arguments to diminish him and make his policies look risky.  He would get us into wars, they say.  They have been mistaken and biased in their presentations.  He's pulling us out of Syria and trying real hard to not get us involved in other military adventures.  He's trying to get us out of 18 years of fighting in Afghanistan.  He campaigned on that. 

Of course, as Commander-in-Chief and president, he understands we have to maintain a strong military posture.  He's done so by building up our military which had been diminished by the last administration.  Yet, he's very cautious where he puts our troops.  The Middle East is a swamp, a quicksand where you sink into your own blood.  Let the people living there settle their own disputes.  As long as they keep it over there, we have little interest in getting involved.

Little interest in getting involved????

He just sends troops and before an incredible amount of weapons to Saudi Arabia; The destructive war in Jemen is based on these weapons.
He supports Israel whatever they do.
He sells weapons to whoever pays. the Kurds use American weapons against Turkish American weapons.
All this to make America great again ! ...without getting involved...??
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 10:44:44 am »

The Kurdish betrayal in October 2019 is not unlike the Munich Agreement in September 1938. Eighty years ago, Britain, Italy and France naively and cowardly assumed that sacrificing Czechoslovakia and appeasing Hitler would prevent the war. Neville Chamberlain declared ‘Peace for our time’ after Germany, Britain, France and Italy reached a settlement allowing Nazi Germany to annex parts of Czechoslovakia.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2018/sep/21/munich-chamberlain-hitler-appeasement-1938

One has to wonder whether Erdogan simply told Trump - "We are going in, you'd better get your boys out" or whether Trump got his marching orders directly from Kremlin. Either way, enabling the Turkish invasion can't be blamed solely at USA, the EU is also complicit in this abhorrent massacre. The decision to throw the Kurds under the bus was not a good one, and the prognosis can't be good for Kurdistan, Turkey and the rest of the world.
Les, The comparison is false.  First, the Kurds don't even have a country so they're not Czechoslovakia. Taking advantage of the Syrian war, the Kurds had expanded their territory and have made incursions into Turkey,  The Turks are our formal ally in NATO as you in Canada are.  ISIS and Iran aren't Germany.  Czechoslovakia and Germany were in the heart of Europe.  These were next door neighbors to Britain and France and presented an immediate existential threat to the rest of Europe. Syria, the Kurds, Turkey, and the rest of these countries are 6000 miles away from America and half that distance from Europe, although Europe is more affected by the Middle East then we are. Yet, I don't see Western Europe sending their armies over there to help the Kurds.  As usual, let those dumb Americans do the fighting. The rest of the world will go about their regular business making money and sipping tea.

Interestingly, I think many Americans are at the same point we were at right before WWII.  Because of WWI, America was tired of war and didn't want to get involved in that Second War over there.  It took Pearl Harbor and Germany's declaration of war against the US. Only then did America declare war on Germany and get us involved officially in the war in Europe.  Well, Americans have had it after all the waring in the Middle East since 9-11.  We tired.  We're broke.  We don't want to be there.  Let someone else pick up the banner.  Trump is just officiating what Americans really want.  We want to go home. The world will have to go on there without us.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 10:58:47 am »

Little interest in getting involved? ???

He just sends troops and before an incredible amount of weapons to Saudi Arabia; The destructive war in Jemen is based on these weapons.
He supports Israel whatever they do.
He sells weapons to whoever pays. the Kurds use American weapons against Turkish American weapons.
All this to make America great again ! ...without getting involved...??

We gave weapons to the Kurds to kill ISIS our common enemy.  We didn't give them those weapons to fight our ally and your ally in NATO Turkey.  Would you want us to abandon the Netherlands if Russia decides it's hungry for territory? The Kurds will have to deal with the Turks on their own if they want to fight them for a country.  It's interesting that the left, liberals and Democrats say we shouldn't be in the costly nation-making business.  Well, at least until Trump is president.  Then, they're all for getting us killed in the Middle East.  Foreigners tell Americans we get involved too much making more of a mess of things.  We should mind our business.  Now suddenly with Trump, you reverse your advice and tell us yeah start dropping more bombs.  It's hypocrisy and all about hating Trump.  It's you guys who have no strategic plans. It's all about politics. 

Other weapons we give to allies to help them defend themselves.  But they'll have to do the fighting.  It's their countries. 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 11:04:33 am by Alan Klein »
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faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 11:00:21 am »

We tired.  We're broke.  We don't want to be there.  Let someone else pick up the banner.  Trump is just officiating what Americans really want.  We want to go home. The world will have to go on there without us.
So explain sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia three days after abandoning the Kurds.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 11:08:18 am »

So explain sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia three days after abandoning the Kurds.
We shouldn't be there.  But I understand it's defensive in nature.  They won't be fighting directly just providing support.  However, if they start dying, Trump should get them the hell out of there.  In any case, if you don't like the way America fights it's wars, send your children and army over there and do the fighting the way you want. But don't tell Americans they have to die for your causes.

faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 11:15:37 am »

We shouldn't be there.  But I understand it's defensive in nature.  They won't be fighting directly just providing support.  However, if they start dying, Trump should get them the hell out of there.  In any case, if you don't like the way America fights it's wars, send your children and army over there and do the fighting the way you want. But don't tell Americans they have to die for your causes.
i remind you again I am a US citizen. The assumptions you make are really quite telling.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2019, 11:27:56 am »

i remind you again I am a US citizen. The assumptions you make are really quite telling.
Then you ought to be sensitive to the fact we've been dying over there. I'm sure you are. So let's not get involved in another war supporting freedom and democracy.  Didn't we learn a lesson in Iraq and Vietnam?  Also, it would be very helpful to include your nationality in your profile.  Also, how about including your name while you're at it.   :)

degrub

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2019, 10:13:39 pm »

We shouldn't be there.  But I understand it's defensive in nature.  They won't be fighting directly just providing support.  However, if they start dying, Trump should get them the hell out of there.  In any case, if you don't like the way America fights it's wars, send your children and army over there and do the fighting the way you want. But don't tell Americans they have to die for your causes.

There is one primary reason we have and the kingdom allows, US military presence on Saudi soil - make Iran hesitate endangering the oil and chemicals supply to the West and others through the Strait of Hormuz.

If there were no vital resources there, we would not be in the region.

Picot-Sykes stirred things up a hundred years ago. Oil in the area raised the stakes. Add in the historical tensions between the Arabs and the Persians, the creation of Israel, and the Kurd’s fight for an independent state and you are where we are today.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2019, 11:22:14 pm »

There is one primary reason we have and the kingdom allows, US military presence on Saudi soil - make Iran hesitate endangering the oil and chemicals supply to the West and others through the Strait of Hormuz.

If there were no vital resources there, we would not be in the region.

Picot-Sykes stirred things up a hundred years ago. Oil in the area raised the stakes. Add in the historical tensions between the Arabs and the Persians, the creation of Israel, and the Kurd’s fight for an independent state and you are where we are today.
Why aren't European troops there in Saudi Arabia?  They're more dependent on M.E. oil they we are since we've gained oil independence, no thanks to Obama.  Frankly, the ME is a mess.  How do you pick sides with this cast of characters?  One's worse than the other.  They all hate each other.  They'll be fighting for the next two centuries.  We've spent and bled enough.  Let them figure it all out among themselves.  IBM's Big Blue chess computer couldn't figure out the next move we should make.  Why bother? 

degrub

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2019, 12:19:43 am »

Remember the ‘oil shocks’ of the ‘70s when OPEC got their act together ?
A large part of the world’s economy depends on the smooth flow of oil out of the Middle East.
That’s why.
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Ivo_B

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2019, 04:36:28 am »

Indeed, electing an unfit person into power does have consequences. Being complicit, comes to mind. Potentially 300,000 displaced people, potential escape of 10s of thousands ISIS detainees, revitalizing of terrorism (ISIL/ISIS was not defeated, they were just driven out of their self-proclaimed caliphate), ...

And all that human suffering just to distract from an impeachment procedure, and trying to win an election.

I’m staying away from populist guff  (other than about photography 🙄) but I have some sour taste in my mouth after reading this.
It would be good if not all discussions turn out in a Trump bashing exercise.

When are You Americans start to understand that the equator doesn’t run trough your crack?

Mind your own inland business and leave the world dealing with themselves.

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