Impeaching Donald Trump

[kers]

Getting back to Iran, things just got a whole lot more serious, with Europe that is. 

IRANIAN MISSILE SYSTEM SHOT DOWN UKRAINE FLIGHT, PROBABLY BY MISTAKE, SOURCES SAY

Suddenly makes sense why Iran refused to turn over the black box.

If this is true it is a very unfortunate accident in which case the US has some responsibility as well.
But i would like to hear independent researchers before jumping to conclusions.

[JoeKitchen]

In the cases you mention it is not proven that Iran was the actor.
What you call terrorism is the same as the US presence there- influence. In fact Soleimani forces were important for halting IS in Iraq.
The drone was downed because it was in Iran's territory, so they had a right to do that.
Iran was so wise not to kill Americans in the revenge attack after Soleimani's killing, to avoid a war. Unlike Trumps behaviour that almost started one.
The US is the aggressor - That started with blowing up the Iran-deal and the imposing of very strict  economic sanctions.
Since then US provocative military action have tried to trigger a reaction from Iran to find an excuse for further military interventions...
Before all that Iran was going the right way, its nuclear program was controlled and there was room for the moderate political forces in the country. Those voices have now been silenced.

Your first line pretty much tells me everything about what you think. 

Fact is Iran for months now has been provoking the west, not just the USA, including the attack on the embassy.  Trump, and the rest of the west, did nothing until Iran killed an American.  Iran is the agressor; we were just re-establishing deterrents. 

Answer me this, if, as you put it, "The US is the aggressor," with much of Europe supporting the Iran deal, then why did Iran attack Europe bound oil tankers?  You would think that if Europe was on Iran's side, Iran would want to appease the Europeans as much as possible and not attack oil shipments bound for Europe.  But this is not what happened, exactly why?

[JoeKitchen]

If this is true it is a very unfortunate accident in which case the US has some responsibility as well.

Only took 14 minutes for someone to take the bait. 

[RSL]

Before all that Iran was going the right way, its nuclear program was controlled and there was room for the moderate political forces in the country.

And we were going to have "peace in our time," same way the world had peace in our time after Chamberlain unleashed his "moderate political force" and Germany was "going the right way."

Which is why the Western World still salutes Winston Churchill. His time came later than it should have, but it finally came. The delay cost millions of lives.

[Rob C]

Your first line pretty much tells me everything about what you think. 

Fact is Iran for months now has been provoking the west, not just the USA, including the attack on the embassy.  Trump, and the rest of the west, did nothing until Iran killed an American.  Iran is the agressor; we were just re-establishing deterrents. 

Answer me this, if, as you put it, "The US is the aggressor," with much of Europe supporting the Iran deal, then why did Iran attack Europe bound oil tankers?  You would think that if Europe was on Iran's side, Iran would want to appease the Europeans as much as possible and not attack oil shipments bound for Europe.  But this is not what happened, exactly why?

Simple reply to your question about ships: because Europe, unlike American claims to fuel independence, depends heavily on imported oil. If Europe becomes uncomfortable, the chances are that it will try to use its position to slow down US sanctions etc. In other words, it could be a ploy to make Europe try to do something to lessen the economic pain in Iran.

Regarding the atomic question and the US exit from the agreement, the "deal": I don't think it has anything to do with "sides" but everything to do with trying to prevent more and more countries get the bomb. It may well be thought of in terms of sides from the US perspective, but that means that one forgets that there are many different perspectives involved here, as in all international situations. It's too simplistic thinking in terms as narrow as them and us.

Rob

[Alan Klein]

Getting back to Iran, things just got a whole lot more serious, with Europe that is. 

IRANIAN MISSILE SYSTEM SHOT DOWN UKRAINE FLIGHT, PROBABLY BY MISTAKE, SOURCES SAY

Suddenly makes sense why Iran refused to turn over the black box. 

I remember when a US Navy ship shot down an Iranian commercial jet by mistake.  They thought they were under attack.  SOunds like Iran just made the same mistake.  This is really bad.  There were a lot of Canadians on the Ukrainian jet. 

[Alan Klein]

Your first line pretty much tells me everything about what you think. 

Fact is Iran for months now has been provoking the west, not just the USA, including the attack on the embassy.  Trump, and the rest of the west, did nothing until Iran killed an American.  Iran is the agressor; we were just re-establishing deterrents. 

Answer me this, if, as you put it, "The US is the aggressor," with much of Europe supporting the Iran deal, then why did Iran attack Europe bound oil tankers?  You would think that if Europe was on Iran's side, Iran would want to appease the Europeans as much as possible and not attack oil shipments bound for Europe.  But this is not what happened, exactly why?

Because Iran is afraid of Trump.  They're not afraid of Europe. 

[PeterAit]

No, Peter, they're not highly educated. They may be highly trained (like a dog is trained) but education is something quite different. I've found that MDs generally are some of the least educated people around. Their training took so much of their time that they never had the opportunity to become educated. Some of them educate themselves after they're out of "training," but many do not.

False, and I should know as I spent some 15 years "training" med students. What you say is true of some, but not all. And, main point here, it's that TRAINING that teaches them how to recognize mental disorders.

[PeterAit]

Compared to whom, Peter? You?

Precisely. And compared to you too. And Joe. And Alan.

[LesPalenik]

False, and I should know as I spent some 15 years "training" med students. What you say is true of some, but not all. And, main point here, it's that TRAINING that teaches them how to recognize mental disorders.

Medical training in outdated ways is one culprit, but it's more the attitude of the practicing MDs. The working doctors don't have time nor inclination to read about new developments and research studies their field.

[Alan Klein]

Come on now Les, Trump has been incredibly restraint in his actions with Iran.  Iran took 6 oil tankers, has been spreading terrorism in the ME that has taken American casualties, shot down one of our drones, etc, and Trump did nothing.  It was not until Iran killed an American and attacked our embassy (within two days of each other) that Trump took action. 

For you to all ignore this and act as if the world started turning only after Trump issued the drone attack is disingenuous and ideologic. 

And now, things appear to be going well.  Iran retaliation was largely a nothing burger; Iran even warned us of the attack.  Our deterrents have been re-established in the ME, and, unlike with Obama, we still are not in a troops on the ground new war. 

On an additional note, it really amazes that, as Ben Haddad (who is not a Trump fan put it) put it, "I’m always surprised the same analysts describe Trump as a calculating selfish cynic and as an irrational crazed madman. You have to choose." 

Crazy like a fox.

[Alan Klein]

False, and I should know as I spent some 15 years "training" med students. What you say is true of some, but not all. And, main point here, it's that TRAINING that teaches them how to recognize mental disorders.

My wife sometimes calls me nuts.  How can I argue.  She's got two Masters. 

[PeterAit]

Only took 14 minutes for someone to take the bait.

 

Do you think this response is clever?

[JoeKitchen]

 

Do you think this response is clever?

I was not trying to be clever, just stating the obvious. 

Surely a tragic event, but in no way does the USA nor Trump bare any responsibility for it.  It is solely the fault of the Iranians, if it indeed turns out to be an accident related to the missle launch.  But I was certain someone would try and pass the blame from the Iranians to us. 

I fully expect the mainstream media will also blame Trump for this by tomorrow, at the latest. 

[LesPalenik]

It's beyond comprehension why would some official governments deny their obvious mistakes or malicious acts.
Cases in point:
- Russians shooting the MH17 Malaysian plane over Ukraine
- Saudis brutally killing Kashoggi
- Iranians downing the Ukrainian plane



 
 
 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

It's beyond comprehension why would some official governments deny their obvious mistakes or malicious acts.
Cases in point:
- Russians shooting the MH17 Malaysian plane over Ukraine...

Far from certain. Much more likely ethnic Russian rebels from Ukraine.

[Peter McLennan]

... working doctors don't have time nor inclination to read about new developments and research studies their field.

A preposterous and ill-informed statement.  Doctors continuously study to improve their skills.  They have to.  Medical science is changing relentlessly and quickly.

[Peter McLennan]

Far from certain. Much more likely ethnic Russian rebels from Ukraine.

In your opinion, possibly.

However:

The responsibility for investigation was delegated to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) and the Dutch-led joint investigation team (JIT), who concluded that the airliner was downed by a Buk surface-to-air missile launched from pro-Russian separatist-controlled territory in Ukraine.[7][8] According to the JIT, the Buk that was used originated from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade of the Russian Federation,[9][10] and had been transported from Russia on the day of the crash, fired from a field in a rebel-controlled area, and the launcher returned to Russia after it was used to shoot down MH17.[1][2][9] On the basis of the JIT's conclusions, the governments of the Netherlands and Australia hold Russia responsible for the deployment of the Buk installation and are taking steps to hold Russia formally accountable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

[RSL]

False, and I should know as I spent some 15 years "training" med students. What you say is true of some, but not all. And, main point here, it's that TRAINING that teaches them how to recognize mental disorders.

So you're a psychiatrist, or at least an MD with psychiatric training? Right? And your diagnosis of Trump is. . ?

[Alan Klein]

Ya, I too also vant to hear das analysis of Herr Trumpf.