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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 323481 times)

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1680 on: November 24, 2019, 08:51:59 pm »

I voted for Trump and don't appreciate being called  a racist.  I'm not one.  You've personally attacked me and my integrity and I don't like it one bit.   

But Stephen Miller is, and it’s problematic that he’s in a position of influence. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1681 on: November 24, 2019, 09:43:13 pm »

But Stephen Miller is, and it’s problematic that he’s in a position of influence. 
Strawman.  The poster called me and all Trump voters racist. 

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1682 on: November 24, 2019, 10:43:58 pm »

Strawman.  The poster called me and all Trump voters racist.

Do you believe Stephen Miller should be fired?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1683 on: November 24, 2019, 10:57:36 pm »

Do you believe Stephen Miller should be fired?
I don;t know anything about him other then he works for Trump.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1684 on: November 24, 2019, 11:25:34 pm »

Some sample questions Hunter Biden can expect at a Senate trial of the president:

Is it true you were discharged from the Navy for cocaine use months before being named to Burisma in 2014?
Do you speak Ukrainian?
What do you know about energy exploration and markets?
How many board meetings did you attend?
 Is it true you were paid more than $3 million over five years?
How much more?
Did you discuss the job with your father?
Did you ask your father to intercede in Ukrainian politics to help Burisma?
https://nypost.com/2019/11/23/goodwin-impeachment-trial-is-the-ace-up-president-trumps-sleeve/

LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1685 on: November 25, 2019, 03:23:07 am »

Michael Bloomberg has launched officially his presidential bid. You can now forget about Bidens.
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dreed

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1686 on: November 25, 2019, 06:59:11 am »

But the country went through two years of angst which continues today because of the charge of collusion with the Russians.

No. The only people that said the word "collusion" was Trump and Fox News. Collusion is not a crime. Mueller was not brought in to investigate "collusion."

Quote
The president wasn't charged with spitting on the street.

Whether he spat in the street or not is irrelevent. It is DoJ policy not to indict a sitting president.
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dreed

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1687 on: November 25, 2019, 07:05:14 am »

I voted for Trump and don't appreciate being called  a racist.  I'm not one.  You've personally attacked me and my integrity and I don't like it one bit.   

If you don't like how all this feels then maybe next time you should give more thought to what it means to vote for someone. As an American, you can legally choose not to vote.

The poster called me and all Trump voters racist.

And I've strayed off topic (a bit.)

In light of recent events a more pertinent question should be is Trump's health such that impeachment makes sense and if not, what then?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 07:23:17 am by dreed »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1688 on: November 25, 2019, 11:27:55 am »

Some sample questions Hunter Biden can expect at a Senate trial of the president:

Snipped drivel for brevity.

Biden has nothing to do with Trump violating the Constitution.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1689 on: November 25, 2019, 11:59:47 am »

... you'll find many stories about why Trump got elected and almost none of them have to do with real policy. It is largely all about racial divide except nobody wants to openly admit to being racist - unless you're Donald Trump.

If you don't like how all this feels then maybe next time you should give more thought to what it means to vote for someone. As an American, you can legally choose not to vote.

Implying that a participant in this forum - many participants, in fact - are racists because they support Trump is an unacceptable slur, and repeating the accusation more directly is disgraceful. Apologise immediately.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1690 on: November 25, 2019, 12:40:13 pm »

Implying that a participant in this forum - many participants, in fact - are racists because they support Trump is an unacceptable slur, and repeating the accusation more directly is disgraceful. Apologise immediately.

Jeremy


Which leads to the question: what if they are racist, and also, if they are, don't they have a right to their opinions, and if they do, are those rights only applicable if muffled?

I find the entire matter of opinions and politically tied views quite fascinating. No idea how they work (as in legality) in the USA, nor, really, in Britain, but don't you find something quite frightening about attempts to have people's minds purified? I went through some of that third degree in boarding school; more than once it crossed my mind in later years that it was a reaction to puritans that helped steer me towards fashion and calendar photography. So actually, perhaps in a perverse sort of way, the puritans did me some good.

By the way, this is not an attempt to interfere with your Moderator function at all, it is a genuine puzzlement at what society considers or does not consider apt. It seems to me that society sometimes makes rules that are totally unrealistic.

Rob

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1691 on: November 25, 2019, 01:00:05 pm »

Which leads to the question: what if they are racist, and also, if they are, don't they have a right to their opinions, and if they do, are those rights only applicable if muffled?

I find the entire matter of opinions and politically tied views quite fascinating. No idea how they work (as in legality) in the USA, nor, really, in Britain, but don't you find something quite frightening about attempts to have people's minds purified? I went through some of that third degree in boarding school; more than once it crossed my mind in later years that it was a reaction to puritans that helped steer me towards fashion and calendar photography. So actually, perhaps in a perverse sort of way, the puritans did me some good.

By the way, this is not an attempt to interfere with your Moderator function at all, it is a genuine puzzlement at what society considers or does not consider apt. It seems to me that society sometimes makes rules that are totally unrealistic.

Rob, if someone has expressed racist views, there can be no objection to the accusation, supported by reasons. However, to accuse someone of racism merely because he has expressed support for a particular politician is highly likely to be unacceptable. In this context, in particular, it's playing the man and not the ball. That's why I consider it worthy of censure (and, in the absence of apology, more).

Not all leaders' views are adopted by their supporters. I take the view, for example, that the Labour Party is institutionally antisemitic and has a leader who is either himself antisemitic or who, while prepared to mouth platitudes when required, in reality considers antisemitism not to be a problem; and I consider that to be a stance supported by a wealth of evidence which is never properly addressed. That does not mean that I consider all the millions of people who will vote for the party in three weeks' time to be racist; many of them will no doubt vote for the party tribally, because they support its policies or for a myriad of other possible reasons. Similar criteria would apply to those who voted for Marine Le Pen in  the 2017 French presidential elections.

I've no wish to purify any individual's mind, and attempting mass purification would make the cleaning of the Augean stables look like a quick whizz round with a feather duster.

Whether racists should be allowed to express racist views, and where a line should be drawn between those views which are racist and those which fall within the scope of either fact or reasonable opinion, is an entirely different question and one which, happily, does not arise or at least has not yet arisen here.

If you, or anyone else, wishes to discuss, or challenge, decisions I take as moderator, you are more than welcome to do so (as long as you don't adopt the Molitor approach, of course).

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1692 on: November 25, 2019, 01:35:40 pm »

Re. your last paragraph, Jeremy: I specifically stated that I had no intentions of challenging your decisions as Moderator, and indeed, my entire post has been - or at least is intended to be - addressed to the wider matter of how society can or should judge things like racism and, in fact, whether or not society making such decisions part of law makes sense at all.

Now this has nothing to do with things such as attacking people for looking different to whatever the norm might be in a specific town or society, this is about questioning the idea that law should try to influence or prettify what is in a person's mind. That is far from granting freedom to attack someone, and is a separate consideration. I can fully understand that law must protect people from acts of violence and/or intimidation, but those are pretty much physical manifestations, and not confined to thought, which is what concerned me in my question.

There is a massive example of that taking place in China right now, with brainwashing at the heart of the "solution" which, of course, makes me wonder if it will solve anything for the state: it must, after all, be aware that under the right circumstances, most people will say anything that saves their lives. Will conversion really be accepted as successful, and the people in those camps who sing the right song returned to the outside world without lifetime problems?

Rob

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1693 on: November 25, 2019, 02:53:19 pm »

It is irrational to feel aggrieved if someone calls someone you voted for a racist.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1694 on: November 25, 2019, 03:14:13 pm »

I voted for Trump and don't appreciate being called  a racist.  I'm not one.  You've personally attacked me and my integrity and I don't like it one bit.   

I don't see Dreed's remark as being directed at you personally. It is a general observation.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1695 on: November 25, 2019, 03:33:22 pm »

The poster implied twice that people who voted for Trump were racist.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1696 on: November 25, 2019, 03:33:51 pm »

Another one bites the dust https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/politics/read-navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html.

Trump really has a lot of trouble hanging onto people, doesn't he?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1697 on: November 25, 2019, 03:35:16 pm »

The problem is some people so hate Trump they can't separate the wheat from the chaff either about him or his voters.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1698 on: November 25, 2019, 05:48:47 pm »

Another one bites the dust https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/politics/read-navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html.

Trump really has a lot of trouble hanging onto people, doesn't he?
Trump runs the show. Why should a president hang on to people who disagree with his policies?  After all, the secretary of the Navy was not elected and was in fact hired by Trump.  The president was elected by the people, and responds to their wishes.  If the Secretary disagrees with his boss's policies, he should resign which is what he did in a proper way.  He wrote a resignation letter to the president telling him that a president deserves a secretary who can follow his president.   Just like you follow your boss's orders.   


Also, did you complain when Obama fired his generals?  Isn't this just politics?  You just don't agree with anything Trump does.

By the way, I happen to agree with the Navy in this case though.  He should let them run their affairs for the most part even though he's the Commander-in-Chief. But this whole case has been politicized on both sides.  So Trump is responded to what he sees are his supporters wishes and isn't listening to his Admirals.  Obama did the same thing when he didn't listen to his General and pulled out too early in Iraq in 2011 leading to ISIS.    He did it for the 2012 elections. 

Maybe we should have one term presidents or president for life.  :)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1699 on: November 25, 2019, 06:08:34 pm »

Trump runs the show. Why should a president hang on to people who disagree with his policies?  After all, the secretary of the Navy was not elected and was in fact hired by Trump.  The president was elected by the people, and responds to their wishes.  If the Secretary disagrees with his boss's policies, he should resign which is what he did in a proper way.  He wrote a resignation letter to the president telling him that a president deserves a secretary who can follow his president.   Just like you follow your boss's orders.   


Also, did you complain when Obama fired his generals?  Isn't this just politics?  You just don't agree with anything Trump does.

By the way, I happen to agree with the Navy in this case though.  He should let them run their affairs for the most part even though he's the Commander-in-Chief. But this whole case has been politicized on both sides.  So Trump is responded to what he sees are his supporters wishes and isn't listening to his Admirals.  Obama did the same thing when he didn't listen to his General and pulled out too early in Iraq in 2011 leading to ISIS.    He did it for the 2012 elections. 

Maybe we should have one term presidents or president for life.  :)

How many has it been now, I've lost count.
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