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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 137680 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1500 on: November 15, 2019, 10:11:26 am »

He was trying to clear his name against the accusation that he won due to election interference.

Who cares, he won the electoral college vote.

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And how much energy did he really donate?  Apparently not that much.  We are talking about a few conversations in which he flirted with withholding aid but ultimately gave in and sent the aid even though none of the investigations where commenced.

The fact that he failed, doesn't excuse the effort. The attempted bribery is an impeachable offense on it's own.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1501 on: November 15, 2019, 10:16:04 am »

Who cares, he won the electoral college vote.

The fact that he failed, doesn't excuse the effort. The attempted bribery is an impeachable offense on it's own.

He just failed, just failed to follow through with his own convictions.  He was not stopped or thwarted or caught in the middle of it, which we know, he just failed to overcome himself.  Keep on pushing that one. 

Secondly, are you saying that people should not be concerned about their legacy?  People should not be concerned about clearing their names? 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1502 on: November 15, 2019, 10:40:12 am »

Secondly, are you saying that people should not be concerned about their legacy?  People should not be concerned about clearing their names?

At the expense of other people's lifes, and against the security of the USA? You can answer that for yourself.
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faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1503 on: November 15, 2019, 11:02:25 am »

Secondly, are you saying that people should not be concerned about their legacy?  People should not be concerned about clearing their names?
What does investigating the Biden's have to do with clearing his name?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1504 on: November 15, 2019, 11:27:07 am »

What does investigating the Biden's have to do with clearing his name?

Once again, he was investing several 2016 election corruption theories, and Biden's Burisma concerns got lumped into the whole package.  Some of these theories, admittedly, were laughable, like the crowd source conspiracy theory, but that does not take away from the fact that Trump acted appropriately on these theories that he believed in.  If the president of the USA believes corruption might exist, he has a responsibility to investigate them. 

Now, I'll be honest with you, the fact that he actually believed in some of these enough to investigate them is pretty damn foolish.  I am not going to sit here and write that it was brilliant on part of the president to take seriously some of these claims, especially considering that many of these were fed to Giuliani by known untrustworthy individuals.  This does reek of incompetence on both Trump's and Giuliani's part, but they are not impeachable actions. 

And before any asks if I will vote for Trump in 2020, against Warren or Bernie?  Well, their incompetence trumps Trump's that cant be trumped, even by Trump.  Against a moderate?  :-X
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1505 on: November 15, 2019, 11:34:38 am »

Comon now, how naive do you need to be to think that Trump would, at this point in time, devote such an amount of energy himself to investigate something that happened 3 years ago for any reason but to use this information against Biden for the 2020 elections?

Cheers,
Bernard

The whole collusion investigation against TRump was to politically damage him for the 2018 election when democrats re-took the house of representatives because of their and the press's smear campaign.  The whole impeachment thing is about the same for the 2020 elections.  It's all about smearing him.  Yet, I don't see you objecting to democrats doing all of this for political reasons.  To argue they're doing it for some noble constitutional reason is about as believable as Trump's reason for investigating the Biden's. It's political hijinks on both sides.  But as long as they're some nexus to possible illegality, in both situations, then calling for and having investigations are legal, despite the fact they is political fallout.  That's American politics.  But we don;t impeach for it. 

For three years we've been hearing how Trump's kids have taken advantage of their father's presidential position to advance Trump business interests.  Yet, I haven't heard any similar complaints about Vice President Biden's son garnering a no-show job for $50K a month with a corrupt Ukrainian corporations (and Chinese also).

The problem with the press, is that it's mainly Democrat liberal and has been for a long time.  So while it's OK for them to go after Republican malfeasance, which should be done by the press, they cover for similar behavior from Democrats.  It was OK for Democrats to set up a phony investigation of Russian collusion for political reasons.  But it's not OK for a Republican administration to ask for investigation of the Bidens who seem to have been involved in corrupt activities themselves.  The bias of 90% of the press is and always has been against Republicans and conservative ideas.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1506 on: November 15, 2019, 11:36:02 am »

Who cares, he won the electoral college vote.

The fact that he failed, doesn't excuse the effort. The attempted bribery is an impeachable offense on it's own.
You're spouting Pelosi's nonsense.  There was no bribery.  You're slandering our president. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1507 on: November 15, 2019, 11:56:08 am »

There was no bribery. 

So, what was it?  Just business?
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1508 on: November 15, 2019, 11:56:13 am »

Please show the exact Bribery statue he violated . . .

Presumably what Nancy Pelosi and several other members of Congress are referring to is 18 USC §201.  While this statute establishes that a crime is committed when "a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for . . . being influenced in the performance of any official act," employing it in an article of impeachment against President Trump strikes me as questionable for two reasons.  First, although I can't be certain, my impression is that although solicitation alone technically is sufficient, prosecutions typically are initiated under this statute only when the official has already accepted something of value or was apprehended in the act of accepting it.  Second, demonstrating that the Ukrainian government was prepared to accede to a demand to make a public statement about investigating the Bidens would put that government in precisely the position it has been trying to avoid—in the middle of a U.S. political dispute—which would be undesirable from a policy perspective.

If the members of Congress favoring impeachment feel they must charge a statutory violation to establish abuse of power with respect Trump's request to Ukrainian President Zelensky, 52 USC §30201 would seem to be a more appropriate choice, since it explicitly applies to soliciting something of value from a foreign national and does not require evidence that the foreign national intended to accede to the request.  Moreover, Trump's own words in the White House transcript of his July telephone conversation with Zelensky establish a prima facie case that he violated that law.

And, of course, any articles of impeachment may include the statutory crime of obstruction of justice, multiple instances of which were documented in Volume II of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1509 on: November 15, 2019, 12:28:46 pm »

Presumably what Nancy Pelosi and several other members of Congress are referring to is 18 USC §201.  While this statute establishes that a crime is committed when "a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for . . . being influenced in the performance of any official act," employing it in an article of impeachment against President Trump strikes me as questionable for two reasons.  First, although I can't be certain, my impression is that although solicitation alone technically is sufficient, prosecutions typically are initiated under this statute only when the official has already accepted something of value or was apprehended in the act of accepting it.

Although I'm not an expert, I do doubt that. If I'm not mistaken, Rod Blagojevich was impeached and removed from office for corruption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich
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Rod Blagojevich[1][2][3] (/bləˈɡɔɪ.əvɪtʃ/, born December 10, 1956) is an American politician who served as the 40th Governor of Illinois from 2003 until his impeachment, conviction, and removal from office in 2009.

A Democrat, Blagojevich was a state representative before being elected to the United States House of Representatives representing parts of Chicago. He was elected governor in 2002, the first Democrat to win the office since Dan Walker's victory 30 years earlier and won reelection to a second term in 2006.[4] Blagojevich was impeached and removed from office for corruption; he solicited bribes for political appointments, including Barack Obama's vacant U.S. Senate seat after Obama was elected president in 2008. Blagojevich was convicted and sentenced to 14 years in federal prison.

Surely, Alan K. wouldn't want a different treatment for a Republican official.

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Second, demonstrating that the Ukrainian government was prepared to accede to a demand to make a public statement about investigating the Bidens would put that government in precisely the position it has been trying to avoid—in the middle of a U.S. political dispute—which would be undesirable from a policy perspective.

But they managed to resist. It even took a (prepared by USA officials) statement to be read on CNN, which was cancelled just in time before the Fareed Zakaria interview was aired. So it was obviously not what President Zelensky wanted to do.

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If the members of Congress favoring impeachment feel they must charge a statutory violation to establish abuse of power with respect Trump's request to Ukrainian President Zelensky, 52 USC §30201 would seem to be a more appropriate choice, since it explicitly applies to soliciting something of value from a foreign national and does not require evidence that the foreign national intended to accede to the request.  Moreover, Trump's own words in the White House transcript of his July telephone conversation with Zelensky establish a prima facie case that he violated that law.

We'll have to see what the actual indictments will be.

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And, of course, any articles of impeachment may include the statutory crime of obstruction of justice, multiple instances of which were documented in Volume II of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report.

Yes, that might be added but would not be enough by itself, and at the same time it has to be simple enough for the general public to understand.

Cheers,
Bart
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1510 on: November 15, 2019, 01:54:15 pm »


For three years we've been hearing how Trump's kids have taken advantage of their father's presidential position to advance Trump business interests.  Yet, I haven't heard any similar complaints about Vice President Biden's son garnering a no-show job for $50K a month with a corrupt Ukrainian corporations (and Chinese also).


You may have a point but Biden's family didn't work for the White House.

You must be happier now that the impeachment proceedings have entered a new public phase and that deliberations are no longer being held behind closed doors.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1511 on: November 15, 2019, 02:13:15 pm »

Presumably what Nancy Pelosi and several other members of Congress are referring to is 18 USC §201.  While this statute establishes that a crime is committed when "a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for . . . being influenced in the performance of any official act," employing it in an article of impeachment against President Trump strikes me as questionable for two reasons.  First, although I can't be certain, my impression is that although solicitation alone technically is sufficient, prosecutions typically are initiated under this statute only when the official has already accepted something of value or was apprehended in the act of accepting it.  Second, demonstrating that the Ukrainian government was prepared to accede to a demand to make a public statement about investigating the Bidens would put that government in precisely the position it has been trying to avoid—in the middle of a U.S. political dispute—which would be undesirable from a policy perspective.

If the members of Congress favoring impeachment feel they must charge a statutory violation to establish abuse of power with respect Trump's request to Ukrainian President Zelensky, 52 USC §30201 would seem to be a more appropriate choice, since it explicitly applies to soliciting something of value from a foreign national and does not require evidence that the foreign national intended to accede to the request.  Moreover, Trump's own words in the White House transcript of his July telephone conversation with Zelensky establish a prima facie case that he violated that law.

And, of course, any articles of impeachment may include the statutory crime of obstruction of justice, multiple instances of which were documented in Volume II of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report.

So when Obama said on an open microphone to the Russian ambassador that he will go light on Russia after the election but has to show forcefulness now before the election, and that Russians should stay quiet during the election season, he could have been brought up on similar charges.  So anytime a president says to a foreign leader it would be nice for him to say something nice about the president to help in with the public, the president could be accused of soliciting something of value.

Technically yes.  But not impeachable.  It;s just too silly.  This doesn;t rise to the level of bribery or high crimes and misdemeanors required for impeachment.  This whole thing today is just politics, the democrats smearing Trump tor the 2020 election. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1512 on: November 15, 2019, 02:15:41 pm »

You may have a point but Biden's family didn't work for the White House.

You must be happier now that the impeachment proceedings have entered a new public phase and that deliberations are no longer being held behind closed doors.
Doesn;t matter.  If the Biden's solicited $50,000 a month "fee" and got a wink and a nod from the Vice President, than that would be a bride, exactly what Blagojevich went to jail for.  Certainly something worthy of investigating.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1513 on: November 15, 2019, 02:32:11 pm »

... This relies on the belief that if media were fair, they would average be 50% for Trump and 50% anti-Trump. But... this a priori rules out the possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good...

This whole little diatribe rests on a false premise:

No, media will not be "fair" if 50% are pro-Trump and 50% are anti-Trump. To be objective, media should neither be pro, nor against Trump (or anyone else for that matter), but report the news matter-of-factly. And then let me, or you, or anyone else decide what we want to be: pro or against.

As for your "possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good"... that is circular reasoning - you first determine that he is not good, take that as granted and absolute truth, and then asses media based on that. Just another false premise.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1514 on: November 15, 2019, 02:49:36 pm »

Who cares, he won the electoral college vote.

The fact that he failed, doesn't excuse the effort. The attempted bribery is an impeachable offense on it's own.

Just discovered that attempted bribery is not an offense in the constitution.  On top of that, they still have no direct evidence of attempted bribery. 

Second, the Dems have been doing internal polling, which they have been trying to keep secret, in swing districts as to whether quid pro quo, extortion, or bribery would be more effective and bribery seems to be the winner.  This is why they suddenly changed terms and proves that it is nothing but political. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1515 on: November 15, 2019, 04:25:21 pm »

This is why they suddenly changed terms and proves that it is nothing but political.

I don't think that it is correct to say that it "proves that is nothing but political". It just proves that they're using polling data to help decide on a strategy. On the surface it seems like a bizarre way to proceed, it's not clear to me what public opinion has to do with it. I doubt that most people understand the nuances of what's being discussed in the first place.

But as I've said before, I have no oar in this water. I couldn't care less if he's impeached or not. I think the better long-term strategy would have been to keep pointing out all the repulsive things he's done since taking office in the view of tossing him out at the next election. I would have made that priority 1, but other people are different ideas. Maybe their thinking was that if Trump was kept busy worrying about impeachment, it would distract him from doing other harm. :)
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1516 on: November 15, 2019, 04:43:05 pm »

If I'm not mistaken, Rod Blagojevich was impeached and removed from office for corruption . . .

Correct.  However, Blagojevich was neither accused during his state of Illinois impeachment, nor subsequently charged by the U.S. Department of Justice, with criminal violations of the federal bribery statute; he was accused, and ultimately convicted, of violating other federal statutes.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 04:48:44 pm by Chris Kern »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1517 on: November 15, 2019, 04:48:43 pm »

I don't think that it is correct to say that it "proves that is nothing but political". It just proves that they're using polling data to help decide on a strategy. On the surface it seems like a bizarre way to proceed, it's not clear to me what public opinion has to do with it....

This is precisely what makes it political. They know they have a lost case, so they are aiming at energizing their voters to show up in 2020. That's why the public opinion matters (to them).

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1518 on: November 15, 2019, 05:57:20 pm »

This whole little diatribe rests on a false premise:

No, media will not be "fair" if 50% are pro-Trump and 50% are anti-Trump. To be objective, media should neither be pro, nor against Trump (or anyone else for that matter), but report the news matter-of-factly. And then let me, or you, or anyone else decide what we want to be: pro or against.

As for your "possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good"... that is circular reasoning - you first determine that he is not good, take that as granted and absolute truth, and then asses media based on that. Just another false premise.

It’s again the same prejudice on your part talking here.

But ok, I won’t adopt the systematic point avoiding tactics of the Trump camp and will answer you as objectivity as I can, what could be a neutral measuring stick? How about the international press?

Have you compared the average WW opinion of the right wing press about Trump? Well, guess what it’s a lot more anti-Trump than it was during the Obama or Bush days.

The left press? Even worse...

Is that a WW conspiracy against Trump?

What you may want to consider realizing is that you have been brain washed into supporting him no matter what.

Even I, the worst Nikon fanboy on the whole internet, am 10 times more objective about Nikon’s weaknesses than you are about Trump. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 06:18:19 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1519 on: November 15, 2019, 08:14:51 pm »

Although I'm not an expert, I do doubt that. If I'm not mistaken, Rod Blagojevich was impeached and removed from office for corruption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Blagojevich
Surely, Alan K. wouldn't want a different treatment for a Republican official.

But they managed to resist. It even took a (prepared by USA officials) statement to be read on CNN, which was cancelled just in time before the Fareed Zakaria interview was aired. So it was obviously not what President Zelensky wanted to do.

We'll have to see what the actual indictments will be.

Yes, that might be added but would not be enough by itself, and at the same time it has to be simple enough for the general public to understand.

Cheers,
Bart


Nor a Democrat.  Remember it was a democrat, Hunter Biden who received $50K a month for doing nothing with the payers who worked for a corrupt corporation getting a nod and a wink from VP Biden.  If proven, that's bribery.  That's different than what Trump or Obama did (with the open microphone with his discussion with the Russians telling them to be quiet during the election and he'll go easy on them afterwards.)


What are we supposed to do?  Impeach a president every time he tells a foreign leader: "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."  THat's just politics, not worthy of impeachment.  Save it for the election.  Regarding the current claim, unlike the Obama Russian open microphone example, Trump can point to an appearance of corruption with the Biden's which should be investigated.  Only the Democrats can call that (investigation) bribery.


Here's an article on the Obama flap.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/us/politics/obama-caught-on-microphone-telling-medvedev-of-flexibility.html
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