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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 320214 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1480 on: November 14, 2019, 09:35:09 pm »

After 'Grab them by the pussy' Only the US would vote for man...

You my friend need to do some research into the former prime minister of Italy. 

Top 25 Quotes By Silvio Berlusconi Quotes
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1481 on: November 14, 2019, 09:42:57 pm »

Well, it's Italy.  That doesn't count.  :)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1482 on: November 14, 2019, 10:06:57 pm »

Pretty much sums up the inquiry so far.  And yes, he actually said that. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1483 on: November 14, 2019, 11:05:30 pm »

Joe, I just can't believe he said that.  Did you really hear him say it or did someone tell you he said it?  :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1484 on: November 14, 2019, 11:07:16 pm »

I guess we think different on this topic...

Oh, shut up! You guys made a window shopping of it ;)

LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1485 on: November 15, 2019, 12:15:31 am »


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kers

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1486 on: November 15, 2019, 06:51:19 am »

You my friend need to do some research into the former prime minister of Italy. 

Top 25 Quotes By Silvio Berlusconi Quotes

I completely agree with you on Berlusconi; But that does not make Trump any better.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1487 on: November 15, 2019, 06:55:50 am »

Joe, I just can't believe he said that.  Did you really hear him say it or did someone tell you he said it?  :)

There is an audio clip of him actually saying that!  Really, you can look it up, it may even be a video clip. 

PS

Just looked it up, and yes it is a video clip of him saying this during the actual hearing.  Obviously he realizes that the entire testimony was nothing by hearsay (and not to mention most of it was hearsay of hearsay with some being hearsay of hearsay of hearsay) and is trying to make the excuse that in certain instances hearsay is allowed by the courts, so all this testimony should matter here and have weight. 

However, what he failed to note was that there are very few instances where hearsay is allowed.  The only two I found was dying declarations given to police officers and when a party is providing hearsay evidence against itself but the witness needs to be a member of that party.  None of what the Dems presented even come close to meeting these qualifications. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 07:03:12 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1488 on: November 15, 2019, 07:51:26 am »

There is an audio clip of him actually saying that!  Really, you can look it up, it may even be a video clip. 

PS

Just looked it up, and yes it is a video clip of him saying this during the actual hearing.  Obviously he realizes that the entire testimony was nothing by hearsay (and not to mention most of it was hearsay of hearsay with some being hearsay of hearsay of hearsay) and is trying to make the excuse that in certain instances hearsay is allowed by the courts, so all this testimony should matter here and have weight. 

However, what he failed to note was that there are very few instances where hearsay is allowed.  The only two I found was dying declarations given to police officers and when a party is providing hearsay evidence against itself but the witness needs to be a member of that party. None of what the Dems presented even come close to meeting these qualifications. 
Well, democrats must feel that impeachment of a president falls into that hearsay category?  Now Pelosi wants to accuse him of bribery.  I guess she figures high crimes and misdemeanors are too "loosy goosy" to convince the skeptical public.  But bribery is one of the words mentioned in the constitution regarding impeachment. 


The whole impeachment argument for the last three years has been accusations in search of a crime. Mueller put the kibosh on collusion and his testimony before Congress caused obstruction of justice to fizzle and make the Democrats look foolish.  They couldn't charge Trump paying off bimbos as a violation of campaign finance law.  It sounded too close to what Democratic President Bill Clinton had a habit of doing.  How embarrassing that would be.  So they're still looking and trying out different charges.  Bribery has a solid ring to it.  Nancy may have finally hit on the right charge that people won;t laugh at. 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1489 on: November 15, 2019, 08:16:07 am »

The more I read this thread, the more I feel that some here - that I assume are honestly thinking what they are writing - are being held hostage by a logical fallacy.

This fallacy is the belief that the truth necessarily falls in the middle of extremes.

By far the best example is the belief that the vast majority of media are anti-Trump because they report negative news about Trump (not the other way around...).

This relies on the belief that if media were fair, they would average be 50% for Trump and 50% anti-Trump. But... this a priori rules out the possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good.

So the claim that media in the US are overall leaning to the left is simply the result of lack of objectivity about who Trump is and what he does.

The media is not objective because it doesn't agree with your own imbalanced view of what Trump is.

In other words, due to this logical fallacy, media can only be assessed as being to the left if they report objectively about Trump... :)

There are many other examples here. When sports papers report time and again that Roger Federer is a better tennis player than Jack Socks, nobody calls them anti-American... but according to the logic complaining that media leans to the left, sports papers should split 50-50% between those thinking that Federed is better vs those thinking that Jack Socks is better.

Similarly, media should have shared opinions about the size of the US vs the size of Belgium. If more than 50% of media think the US is the larger country, that must mean they are anti-Belgian. And... they all keep writing that the US is larger... I am revolted by the degree of racism against Belgium!

I wonder why this isn't the case...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 08:20:37 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1490 on: November 15, 2019, 08:34:23 am »

The more I read this thread, the more I feel that some here - that I assume are honestly thinking what they are writing - are being held hostage by a logical fallacy.

This fallacy is the belief that the truth necessarily falls in the middle of extremes.

By far the best example is the belief that the vast majority of media are anti-Trump because they report negative news about Trump (not the other way around...).

This relies on the belief that if media were fair, they would average be 50% for Trump and 50% anti-Trump. But... this a priori rules out the possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good.

So the claim that media in the US are overall leaning to the left is simply the result of lack of objectivity about who Trump is and what he does.

The media is not objective because it doesn't agree with your own imbalanced view of what Trump is.

In other words, due to this logical fallacy, media can only be assessed as being to the left if they report objectively about Trump... :)

There are many other examples here. When sports papers report time and again that Roger Federer is a better tennis player than Jack Socks, nobody calls them anti-American... but according to the logic complaining that media leans to the left, sports papers should split 50-50% between those thinking that Federed is better vs those thinking that Jack Socks is better.

Similarly, media should have shared opinions about the size of the US vs the size of Belgium. If more than 50% of media think the US is the larger country, that must mean they are anti-Belgian. And... they all keep writing that the US is larger... I am revolted by the degree of racism against Belgium!

I wonder why this isn't the case...

Cheers,
Bernard

Narratives and mythology always have a stronger emotional pull than reality. Thinking is work. Acquiring and studying evidence objectively is difficult, it does not come naturally.

Also, we love belonging to tribes. Just think of the utter insanity of supporters of different pro sports teams getting into brawls over games. What possible difference does it make to anyone's life whether City A or City B wins this year's championship? That is an arena where basically nothing important is at stake, and yet people are willing to harm each other over the outcomes of games.
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faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1491 on: November 15, 2019, 08:51:44 am »

However, what he failed to note was that there are very few instances where hearsay is allowed.  The only two I found was dying declarations given to police officers and when a party is providing hearsay evidence against itself but the witness needs to be a member of that party.  None of what the Dems presented even come close to meeting these qualifications.
There are twenty three exceptions to the hearsay rule. Google will find them for you. And impeachment hearings are not governed by the federal rules of evidence. Many of the individuals with first hand knowledge are ignoring subpeonas at Trump's insistence. Does anyone disbelieve the so-called hearsay testimony?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 08:59:01 am by faberryman »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1492 on: November 15, 2019, 08:59:47 am »

Quote
This relies on the belief that if media were fair, they would average be 50% for Trump and 50% anti-Trump. But... this a priori rules out the possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good.

So the claim that media in the US are overall leaning to the left is simply the result of lack of objectivity about who Trump is and what he does.

The media is not objective because it doesn't agree with your own imbalanced view of what Trump is.

In other words, due to this logical fallacy, media can only be assessed as being to the left if they report objectively about Tru

Interesting and valid theory, Bernard
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1493 on: November 15, 2019, 09:03:13 am »

There are twenty three exceptions to the hearsay rule. Google will find them for you. And impeachment hearings are not governed by the federal rules of evidence. Many of the individuals with first hand knowledge are ignoring subpeonas at Trump's insistence. Does anyone disbelieve the so-called hearsay testimony?

Thanks for updating me on hearsay and letting me know this is all political.  By the way, can you please supply the exception that applies to these hearings. 

And lets not forget he said that it can be much better then direct evidence.  LOL

Although one could argue hearsay is better then no evidence, it would be quite difficult to argue hearsay is better then direct evidence. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 09:20:30 am by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1494 on: November 15, 2019, 09:14:23 am »

The more I read this thread, the more I feel that some here - that I assume are honestly thinking what they are writing - are being held hostage by a logical fallacy.

This fallacy is the belief that the truth necessarily falls in the middle of extremes.

By far the best example is the belief that the vast majority of media are anti-Trump because they report negative news about Trump (not the other way around...).

This relies on the belief that if media were fair, they would average be 50% for Trump and 50% anti-Trump. But... this a priori rules out the possibility that Trump may be less than 50% good.

So the claim that media in the US are overall leaning to the left is simply the result of lack of objectivity about who Trump is and what he does.

The media is not objective because it doesn't agree with your own imbalanced view of what Trump is.

In other words, due to this logical fallacy, media can only be assessed as being to the left if they report objectively about Trump... :)

There are many other examples here. When sports papers report time and again that Roger Federer is a better tennis player than Jack Socks, nobody calls them anti-American... but according to the logic complaining that media leans to the left, sports papers should split 50-50% between those thinking that Federed is better vs those thinking that Jack Socks is better.

Similarly, media should have shared opinions about the size of the US vs the size of Belgium. If more than 50% of media think the US is the larger country, that must mean they are anti-Belgian. And... they all keep writing that the US is larger... I am revolted by the degree of racism against Belgium!

I wonder why this isn't the case...

Cheers,
Bernard

Come on now Bernard.

First, the case is weak at best.  The Dems have not provided any testimony that with direct evidence.  It is all hearsay of hearsay and conjecture on the part of those testifying. 

On top of that, the witnesses have provided information that helps Trump.  Kent yesterday noted theories that Trump wanted investigated that had nothing to do with the Bidens and everything to do with 2016.  Admittedly, a couple of them are conspiracy theories with no evidence to back them up, but Trump wanted them investigated.  He gave credence to these even if the evidence was very questionable, the same thing you are claiming about with any evidence for the Bidens.  These investigations got all lumped together, implying intent was about 2016 corruption, not for 2020. 

On top of that, the witnesses also implied that Giuliani was getting bad information, and then feeding it to Trump, from two nefarious individuals that had an ax to grind.  Once again, Trump acting on bad information is not impeachable.  It may be ignorant, especially on Giuliani's part, but not impeachable. 

Last, even some of the Dem's witnesses had call for, during these hearings, further investigation into Burisma itself. 

For all intents and purposes, the intent appears to be investigating 2016 election corruption that Trump thought Biden could be a part of. 

Unless either Giuliani or Bolton or Mulvaney testify that Trump's intent was for help in the 2020 election, the Dems have nothing. 

Lets also not forget all of the lies the Dems are spreading around with the biggest one being that Schiff claims he does not know the name of the whistle blower, while at the same time threatening that if you say his name during the hearings he will shut you done.  LOL.  That in itself destroys his credibility. 

"Oh yes, my staff met with the whistle blower, but I refused to be in the room and covered my ears whenever his name was spoken."  Sure.   ;D  (FYI, this quotation was a parody; I'll admit to it before I am called out on it, unlike Schiff.  Thankfully I'm not under oath.) 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 01:59:37 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1495 on: November 15, 2019, 09:32:52 am »

. . . there are very few instances where hearsay is allowed.

The federal rule against hearsay does not apply to investigations, only at trial or during depositions intended to be introduced at trial.

If the House of Representatives adopts articles of impeachment and a trial to determine whether President Trump should be removed from office is held in the Senate, I presume Chief Justice John Roberts will apply the federal rules of evidence regarding the admissibility of testimony and documents.

The federal rules provide numerous exclusions from and exceptions to the rule against hearsay and additional ones have been created by various statutes.  Among those that might apply in a Senate trial are the rules allowing statements by agents and co-conspirators and the special exception for declarants who are "unavailable," such as when a privilege (such as "executive privilege" or the privilege against self-incrimination) prevents a witness from testifying.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1496 on: November 15, 2019, 09:50:45 am »

Come on now Bernard.

First, the case is weak at best.  The Dems have not provided any testimony that with direct evidence.  It is all hearsay of hearsay and conjecture on the part of those testifying. 

On top of that, the witnesses have provided information that helps Trump.  Kent yesterday noted theories that Trump wanted investigated that had nothing to do with the Bidens and everything to do with 2016.  Admirably, a couple of them are conspiracy theories with no evidence to back them up, but Trump wanted them investigated.  He gave credence to these even if the evidence was very questionable, the same thing you are claiming about with any evidence for the Bidens.  These investigations got all lumped together, implying intent was about 2016 corruption, not for 2020. 

On top of that, the witnesses also implied that Giuliani was getting bad information, and then feeding it to Trump, from two nefarious individuals that had an ax to grind.  Once again, Trump acting on bad information is not impeachable.  It may be ignorant, especially on Giuliani's part, but not impeachable. 

Last, even some of the Dem's witnesses had call for, during these hearings, further investigation into Burisma itself. 

For all intents and purposes, the intent appears to be investigating 2016 election corruption that Trump thought Biden could be a part of. 

Unless either Giuliani or Bolton or Mulvaney testify that Trump's intent was for help in the 2020 election, the Dems have nothing. 

Lets also not forget all of the lies the Dems are spreading around with the biggest one being that Schiff claims he does not know the name of the whistle blower, while at the same time threatening that if you say his name during the hearings he will shut you done.  LOL.  That in itself destroys his credibility. 

"Oh yes, my staff met with the whistle blower, but I refused to be in the room and covered my ears whenever his name was spoken."  Sure.   ;D  (FYI, this quotation was a parody; I'll admit to it before I am called out on it, unlike Schiff.  Thankfully I'm not under oath.)

Comon now, how naive do you need to be to think that Trump would, at this point in time, devote such an amount of energy himself to investigate something that happened 3 years ago for any reason but to use this information against Biden for the 2020 elections?

Cheers,
Bernard

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1497 on: November 15, 2019, 10:04:07 am »

Comon now, how naive do you need to be to think that Trump would, at this point in time, devote such an amount of energy himself to investigate something that happened 3 years ago for any reason but to use this information against Biden for the 2020 elections?

Cheers,
Bernard

He was trying to clear his name against the accusation that he won due to election interference. 

And how much energy did he really donate?  Apparently not that much.  We are talking about a few conversations in which he flirted with withholding aid but ultimately gave in and sent the aid even though none of the investigations where commenced. 

Does not seem to me that Trump was really hellbent on seeing this thing through, which certainly shows the amount of energy he devoted was small.   

In other news, a next star witness is up, who also never spoke to Trump, refused to engage in the foreign policy Trump was promoting, got fired due to insubordination and perjured herself last time around.  I should also add that she also was not even in a state department position during the timeline of events put forth by the Dems. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 10:43:40 am by JoeKitchen »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1498 on: November 15, 2019, 10:08:03 am »

Comon now, how naive do you need to be to think that Trump would, at this point in time, devote such an amount of energy himself to investigate something that happened 3 years ago for any reason but to use this information against Biden for the 2020 elections?

Indeed, and in addition, why didn't he mention the issue of "corruption" but instead asked for making a public statement about an investigation into the Bidens? And why the bribery, witholding Congress appoved funds for Military aid (in the interest of the USA). Bribery is an impeachable offense in the Constitution, and jeopardising the (military) safety of the USA by witholding funds for defense to an advanced post that's in a battle with Russia (people die almost every day in that combat zone). And why the bypassing of Congressional oversight by Giuliani as instructed by Trump. And why the hiding of the phone transcript in the first place, on a server that's only used for the highest confidentiality class of documents. And why the instructions to witnesses to not cooperate (=obstruction of justice).

The case for impeachment is getting stronger with each action trying to frustrate the legal process. And the public hearings have only just started.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1499 on: November 15, 2019, 10:09:52 am »

Indeed, and in addition, why didn't he mention the issue of "corruption" but instead asked for making a public statement about an investigation into the Bidens? And why the bribery, witholding Congress appoved funds for Military aid (in the interest of the USA). Bribery is an impeachable offense in the Constitution, and jeopardising the (military) safety of the USA by witholding funds for defense to an advanced post that's in a battle with Russia (people die almost every day in that combat zone). And why the bypassing of Congressional oversight by Giuliani as instructed by Trump. And why the hiding of the phone transcript in the first place, on a server that's only used for the highest confidentiality class of documents. And why the instructions to witnesses to not cooperate (=obstruction of justice).

The case for impeachment is getting stronger with each action trying to frustrate the legal process. And the public hearings have only just started.

Please show the exact Bribery statue he violated, because the Dems have refused to do so.  Also, please show the direct evidence for this statue, because the Dems also refuse to do so.

Insofar as using a personal lawyer to handle aspects of his policy, this is not unprecedented.  FDR did the same thing.   

Additionally, the New York Times has repeatably reported on the fact that Trump often keeps information of dealings in a private secure server due to the massive amount of leaking the occurred when he was first in office.  This was reported before this story ever began.  If this was the only incident of this happening, I would agree it does not look good.  But since is part of a large process put in place to preventing leaking, it means nothing!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 10:13:15 am by JoeKitchen »
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