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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 136544 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1340 on: November 10, 2019, 12:21:21 pm »

It was, by the subsequent Prosecutor General who later exempted Mr. Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma, from the suspicions.

It doesn;t explain why Biden was paid $50,000 a month?  It wasn;t for his good looks.  I'd want to know what his father VP Joe Biden knew about his involvement in Barisma and whether he would help out.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1341 on: November 10, 2019, 01:02:32 pm »

It was, by the subsequent Prosecutor General who later exempted Mr. Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma, from the suspicions.

Yay! Victory! (for Burisma, of course).

Now, lets recollect... the EU starts an investigation in Zlochevsky (btw, that name translates into "naughty" ;) ) and blocks his millions. Then complains the old prosecutor isn't cooperating with the investigation and wants, allegedly, that prosecutor fired for that. Because of that "lack of cooperation" the EU "has no choice" but to release the funds. Now the new prosecutors finds no corruption. How convenient. That new prosecutor must be a smart guy, having seen what happened to the old prosecutor when you go against the son of the vice-president of the US.

So, no corruption in Ukraine. What else is new?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1342 on: November 10, 2019, 02:54:14 pm »

It doesn;t explain why Biden was paid $50,000 a month?  It wasn;t for his good looks.  I'd want to know what his father VP Joe Biden knew about his involvement in Barisma and whether he would help out.

Which still has nothing to do with the impeachment inquiry into Trump witholding Congress approved military funding in exchange for foreign Interference with US politics. Your question is just a distraction.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1343 on: November 10, 2019, 03:11:35 pm »

It doesn;t explain why Biden was paid $50,000 a month?  It wasn;t for his good looks.  I'd want to know what his father VP Joe Biden knew about his involvement in Barisma and whether he would help out.

It would be even worse if an American company paid him for such services that kind of money. In such a case, it could come indirectly from your own pocket.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1344 on: November 10, 2019, 04:49:51 pm »

It would be even worse if an American company paid him for such services that kind of money. In such a case, it could come indirectly from your own pocket.
I just looked at the proxy statement for a pharma company whose stock I hold.  Average compensation for BOD members is $330,000/year.  there are 10 outside directors so the company is paying over $3M/year.  Yes, that does come out our pocket but is a small amount.  I have no idea how many directors that Ukraine company has and what the compensation is for them.  Taking a quick look at some of my other holdings the range seems to be $330K to $380K per year for serving on a BOD.  I also quickly looked at JP Morgan Chase (biggest bank in the US) and their BOD member average about $440K/year.  Nice work if you can get it.

It's easy enough to find this stuff out as you can Google the company name + proxy statement.  They disclose the the amounts in that document. 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1345 on: November 10, 2019, 05:06:47 pm »

In Hunter's defense, it is hard to resist the call for such an easy cash, although a Heinz grandson thought it is a bed idea and declined himself. The offer to join the board may or may not came with the expectations of father's influence. Just a mere presence of such a name on the board serves several useful purposes, without anything illegal involved. It might give a certain credibility to clients, partners, creditors. auditors, etc. It might serve as a deterrent to outside meddling by the authorities (obviously worked, though not illegal). For those familiar with the post-Soviet practice, there are several unspoken rules that everyone understands and obeys.

A personal example (and no, it doesn't involve a $600K to me): while working as a finance guy for an internet startup about 20 years ago in Barcelona, I was invited by the CEO to accompany him to Milan to meet the auditors (one of the big four). We flew first class. At the meeting, after the CEO introduced me in English and I exchanged a couple of pleasantries with the Italian hosts, they quickly switched to Italian and forgot about me. I was wondering why I was there? Then it dawned on me: bringing a gray-hair guy who until then worked for one of the biggest US blue-chip multinationals was supposed to give credibility to the start-up and the young CEO. That was about it. I got the first-class flight and a dinner in a nice Milan restaurant out of it (wish it was $600K, alas ;) )

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1346 on: November 10, 2019, 05:08:05 pm »

Nice work if you can get it.
That is largely what the pushback is about. A person envious because he is not being paid to be on a board of directors so it must be corruption.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1347 on: November 10, 2019, 05:17:15 pm »

Then again, there could be something more than just sitting on the board (although that "more" may or may not be illegal):

https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/johnson-grassley-call-state-department-release-documents-hunter-biden-and-burisma

Quote
Recently obtained State Department emails, made public through a FOIA request, indicate Burisma’s consulting firm noted “two high profile U.S. citizens (including Hunter Biden as a board member) affiliated with the company” when requesting a meeting with State Department officials to discuss the validity of the U.S. government’s classification that their client, Burisma, was corrupt.

Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1348 on: November 10, 2019, 06:36:40 pm »

In Hunter's defense, it is hard to resist the call for such an easy cash, although a Heinz grandson thought it is a bed idea and declined himself. The offer to join the board may or may not came with the expectations of father's influence. Just a mere presence of such a name on the board serves several useful purposes, without anything illegal involved.

Not illegal or a violation of ethics rules, perhaps, but according to in a piece by Glenn Thrush and Kenneth Vogel published today in the New York Times, an "unnecessary distraction" sufficient to warrant concern in the Department of State.

Quote
. . . Hunter Biden’s activities struck many of the officials working on Ukraine policy as an unnecessary distraction, or worse. Mr. Biden’s own aides were so worried about the optics, they enlisted State Department officials to gather facts to determine how to handle the story, according to people who worked with his office.

Yet few, if any, had raised the issue with Mr. Biden directly when it first arose. Most viewed the revelation — unseemly, but not illegal or a violation of ethics rules — as simply not worth risking a scolding from Mr. Biden, who had reacted angrily when Mr. Obama’s aides raised the issue of his son’s lobbying during the 2008 campaign. One person who briefly discussed the matter with Mr. Biden said he was anguished by his son’s personal problems and unsure how to help him recover.

Actually, according to the Times report, some State Department officials eventually did raise the issue of his son Hunter's activities in Ukraine with Vice President Biden—the Times was not able to persuade them to reveal the response they received from the vice president—but "former administration officials . . . , speaking on the condition of anonymity, cited one reason above all others for backing off: the vice president’s shaky emotional state over [his elder son] Beau’s illness and death."

That's not to imply that the activities of Hunter Biden are relevant to the issue of whether President Trump abused the power of his office by asking his Ukrainian counterpart to launch an investigation into the Bidens.  Nothing Hunter Biden or his father did plausibly could have any significance in determining Trump's culpability―which would be based solely on his own motives and actions.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1349 on: November 10, 2019, 08:02:32 pm »

In Hunter's defense, it is hard to resist the call for such an easy cash, although a Heinz grandson thought it is a bed idea and declined himself. The offer to join the board may or may not came with the expectations of father's influence. Just a mere presence of such a name on the board serves several useful purposes, without anything illegal involved. It might give a certain credibility to clients, partners, creditors. auditors, etc. It might serve as a deterrent to outside meddling by the authorities (obviously worked, though not illegal). For those familiar with the post-Soviet practice, there are several unspoken rules that everyone understands and obeys.

A personal example (and no, it doesn't involve a $600K to me): while working as a finance guy for an internet startup about 20 years ago in Barcelona, I was invited by the CEO to accompany him to Milan to meet the auditors (one of the big four). We flew first class. At the meeting, after the CEO introduced me in English and I exchanged a couple of pleasantries with the Italian hosts, they quickly switched to Italian and forgot about me. I was wondering why I was there? Then it dawned on me: bringing a gray-hair guy who until then worked for one of the biggest US blue-chip multinationals was supposed to give credibility to the start-up and the young CEO. That was about it. I got the first-class flight and a dinner in a nice Milan restaurant out of it (wish it was $600K, alas ;) )
Your father wasn't the Vice President. :)

faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1350 on: November 10, 2019, 08:10:16 pm »

Your father wasn't the Vice President. :)
And the crime is?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1351 on: November 10, 2019, 08:11:47 pm »

Not illegal or a violation of ethics rules, perhaps, but according to in a piece by Glenn Thrush and Kenneth Vogel published today in the New York Times, an "unnecessary distraction" sufficient to warrant concern in the Department of State.

Actually, according to the Times report, some State Department officials eventually did raise the issue of his son Hunter's activities in Ukraine with Vice President Biden—the Times was not able to persuade them to reveal the response they received from the vice president—but "former administration officials . . . , speaking on the condition of anonymity, cited one reason above all others for backing off: the vice president’s shaky emotional state over [his elder son] Beau’s illness and death."

That's not to imply that the activities of Hunter Biden are relevant to the issue of whether President Trump abused the power of his office by asking his Ukrainian counterpart to launch an investigation into the Bidens.  Nothing Hunter Biden or his father did plausibly could have any significance in determining Trump's culpability―which would be based solely on his own motives and actions.

How do you know, Chris?  Are you a mind reader?  Let Hunter Biden testify and swear under oath and legal penalty if he falsely testifies that there were no corrupt actions by either he or his father and that his father played no part in him getting the job in Ukraine or China.       After all, if he testifies as such, that could even convince republicans that the president's quid pro quo was only to hurt a political rival and could convince the Senate to find him guilty.  Short of testifying, the question remains open to many people who will also ask, what did Hunter fear from testifying?  You see, you can't have it both ways.

John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1352 on: November 10, 2019, 08:14:17 pm »

I think Hunter Biden was recruited to the BOD because his father was vice president, and the Ukrainians were hoping to get something out of it. Hoping to get something out of it, and actually getting something out of it, are two different things, and nobody alleges the latter. Hunter Biden was a troubled adult, who was exploited by the Ukrainians who, I imagine, felt even the appearance of a connection to Joe Biden was worth $50,000 a month, or whatever it was.

A lot of Presidents have had close relatives and friends who embarrassed them -- Jimmy Carter's brother, Ronald Reagan's gay son, Bill Clinton's wife and girlfriend ( 8-) ). No way to stop that.

None of that has anything to do with Trump's attempted extortion. You have to remember, it wasn't a request from Trump to look into Biden's son's employment that's the problem, it was Trump's effort at extortion that's the problem -- the withholding of U.S. government money from Ukraine, which had been authorized by Congress in an effort to help the Ukraine hold off Trump's buddy Vladimir Putin's troops, that caused the problem. I think if Trump had said, "Listen, pal, you should look into Hunter Biden's presence on the gas company board," there wouldn't have been an impeachable problem. The problem was when he said, "Listen pal, look into Biden or I'll withhold the defense money you need." Clearly extortion, and it wasn't his money to withhold.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 08:20:19 pm by John Camp »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1353 on: November 10, 2019, 08:18:37 pm »

I think Hunter Biden was recruited to the BOD because his father was vice president, and the Ukrainians were hoping to get something out of it. Hoping to get something out of it, and actually getting something out of it, are two different things, and nobody alleges the latter. Hunter Biden was a troubled adult, who was exploited by the Ukrainians who, I imagine, felt even the appearance of a connection to Joe Biden was worth $50,000 a month, or whatever it was.

A lot of Presidents have had close relatives and friends who embarrassed them -- Jimmy Carter's brother, Ronald Reagan's gay son, Bill Clinton's wife and girlfriend ( 8-) ). No way to stop that.

None of that has anything to do with Trump's attempted extortion.




You think? So we should impeach a president on what you and others think?  Sworn testimony by Hunter Biden would reveal the facts. 

John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1354 on: November 10, 2019, 08:22:48 pm »

<snip> Sworn testimony by Hunter Biden would reveal the facts.

There's something you don't se every day -- Alan's admitting he'd accept sworn testimony from an admitted cokehead.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1355 on: November 10, 2019, 08:37:33 pm »

There's something you don't se every day -- Alan's admitting he'd accept sworn testimony from an admitted cokehead.
There are plenty of sober people who lie on the stand.  So why can't a person with a drug problem tell the truth?  In fact if he's in treatment, he may feel compelled to tell the truth to stay sober.  So we actually get honest testimony.  In any case, if he had drug problems, even more the reason he should answer how he deserved $50,000 a month and whether there were anything untoward about the relationship he and his father had with Ukraine and China. Was he selling his father's office for drug money he needed?

Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1356 on: November 10, 2019, 08:49:11 pm »

I think if Trump had said, "Listen, pal, you should look into Hunter Biden's presence on the gas company board," there wouldn't have been an impeachable problem.

What may be impeachable is a somewhat more complex issue, but your hypothetical would appear to involve a violation of 52 USC §30121: "It shall be unlawful for . . . a person to solicit . . . [a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value] from a foreign national."

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1357 on: November 10, 2019, 08:55:06 pm »

What may be impeachable is a somewhat more complex issue, but your hypothetical would appear to involve a violation of 52 USC §30121: "It shall be unlawful for . . . a person to solicit . . . [a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value] from a foreign national."
Chris, What contribution from a foreign national did Trump solicit? 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1358 on: November 10, 2019, 09:58:41 pm »

Chris, What contribution from a foreign national did Trump solicit?

This conversation is absolutely insane.

The answer to this question has already been provided tens of times in this thread. Trump has clearly solicited help from Ukraine to make a public statement that a major political rival of Trump was being investigated for corruption. Not only that, he conditioned the release of military funding already approved against this investigation...

The conversational tactics of Allan, which consist in ignoring the previous answers in an attempt to reset the conversation in a way aligned with the disinformation he is continuing to try to spread, is just incredibly tiresome.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 10:16:04 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1359 on: November 10, 2019, 10:05:00 pm »

This conversation is absolutely insane.

The answer to this question has already been provided tens of times in this thread.

The conversational tactics of Allan, which consist in ignoring the previous answers in an attempt to reset the conversation in a way aligned with the disinformation he is continuing to try to spread, is just incredibly tiresome.

Cheers,
Bernard

My question that I never asked before was addressed to Chris, who made the statement, not you.  Your smart-aleck response is tiresome.
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