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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 138481 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1300 on: November 08, 2019, 12:17:26 pm »

...also were *aware of* Russian interference but it could not be proved that they *participated in* said interference.

Whatever interference there was, it was under Obama/Biden's watch.

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1301 on: November 08, 2019, 12:19:45 pm »

Whatever interference there was, it was under Obama/Biden's watch.

Yes, it happened while Trump was a candidate, as one might expect when one is interfering on behalf of said candidate.  Wouldn't need much help AFTER the election, after all.  (Well, until about now, but Moscow Mitch has got that covered.)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1302 on: November 08, 2019, 12:32:25 pm »

If that interference was so serious, wouldn't it behooved Obama to interfere in the interference? For more than one reason (the public one would be national security, the real one to stop Trump from coming to power, if they thought Russian interference was so effective - but they didn't, because it wasn't - it was only after the lost election that they started crying for excuses).

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1303 on: November 08, 2019, 12:48:12 pm »

Buttigieg has been my top...

OMG!!!

Sorry, James, couldn't resist  ;D

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1304 on: November 08, 2019, 12:50:52 pm »

... And are you under the impression that a 600K contract is unusual...

To put things into perspective:

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"The average annual compensation for non-executive directors at S&P 500 companies rose 2 percent to $304,856 last year, topping $300,000 for the first time and 43 percent higher than it was 10 years ago, according to a new report released by executive headhunters Spencer Stuart."

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1305 on: November 08, 2019, 02:51:27 pm »

If that interference was so serious, wouldn't it behooved Obama to interfere in the interference? For more than one reason (the public one would be national security, the real one to stop Trump from coming to power, if they thought Russian interference was so effective - but they didn't, because it wasn't - it was only after the lost election that they started crying for excuses).

It's a fair question, but your conclusions are suspect ;). Especially considering that we actually DID apparently bring it up with Russia directly, but clearly not with enough strength.

Anyway, there seems to be no definitive answer, but the suggestions range from McConnell wouldn't sign onto a joint condemnation, to they didn't want to appear to tilt the election toward HRC, to they didn't want to irritate Putin because they wanted his buy-off on the Iran nuclear deal. NPR has a pretty evenhanded look at the various reasons why things might have gone down the way they did.

My personal opinion?  Probably a lot of the Iran deal, combined with Obama's tendency to play foreign policy very softly and deliberately.
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1306 on: November 08, 2019, 02:57:57 pm »

To put things into perspective:

Yeah - so the difference between the Average Joe getting 25k/month from a random corp, and the Son of Joe getting 50k/month from an energy company with a predilection for splashy publicity doesn't really move the needle for me.   Plus, apparently one of Burisma's main talents is getting famous and connected people to do stuff with them.

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Zlochevsky's event has featured such speakers as Prince Albert II of Monaco; Romano Prodi, a former Italian prime minister; Joschka Fischer, a former German foreign minister; and other past and present luminaries from European and U.S. politics.

Zlochevsky also continues to buy favor with his support for the Atlantic Council, a Washington think tank.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 03:11:03 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1307 on: November 08, 2019, 03:17:44 pm »

Regarding Board of Directors compensation here in the US, I would say it is all over the map.  I have a fair number of individual stock holdings in my portfolio and carefully look at the BODs during proxy season so that I can cast an itelligent vote.  Companies such as Berkshire-Hathaway compensate BOD members quite low as that's in keeping with Buffett's philosophy.  Compensation includes more than the yearly monetary remuneration and can include stock and stock options as well.  I mentioned Elaine Chao's presence on the Wells Fargo board in an earlier post and that's the gift that keeps on giving as she received another payout earlier this years because of stock option.  Now maybe she donated this to charity to avoid any conflict of interest but that has not been disclosed.  We have a good friend who was a US Trade Representative in a past administration who served on Intel, Estee Lauder, and one other board that I cannot remember.  That person's yearly compensation excluding stock and stock options was $950K/year and this was back in 2014 when I looked at the data. 

In the US, a lot of people go on BODs for political reasons and quota filling.  Sometimes they have an understanding of the company and sometimes not.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1308 on: November 08, 2019, 03:48:48 pm »

Regarding Board of Directors compensation here in the US, I would say it is all over the map.  I have a fair number of individual stock holdings in my portfolio and carefully look at the BODs during proxy season so that I can cast an itelligent vote.  Companies such as Berkshire-Hathaway compensate BOD members quite low as that's in keeping with Buffett's philosophy.  Compensation includes more than the yearly monetary remuneration and can include stock and stock options as well.  I mentioned Elaine Chao's presence on the Wells Fargo board in an earlier post and that's the gift that keeps on giving as she received another payout earlier this years because of stock option.  Now maybe she donated this to charity to avoid any conflict of interest but that has not been disclosed.  We have a good friend who was a US Trade Representative in a past administration who served on Intel, Estee Lauder, and one other board that I cannot remember.  That person's yearly compensation excluding stock and stock options was $950K/year and this was back in 2014 when I looked at the data. 

In the US, a lot of people go on BODs for political reasons and quota filling.  Sometimes they have an understanding of the company and sometimes not.
But the Democrats have complained for three years that Trump's kids are taking advantage of their daddy's political position to line their pockets.  So now you can;t make excuses when Democratic VP Biden's kid does the same thing.  Especially when Joe Biden met with some of these guys personally.  It's going to sink his candidacy as people realize that Biden is also part of the swamp. 

John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1309 on: November 08, 2019, 03:50:05 pm »

Regarding Board of Directors compensation here in the US, I would say it is all over the map.  I have a fair number of individual stock holdings in my portfolio and carefully look at the BODs during proxy season so that I can cast an itelligent vote.  Companies such as Berkshire-Hathaway compensate BOD members quite low as that's in keeping with Buffett's philosophy.  Compensation includes more than the yearly monetary remuneration and can include stock and stock options as well.  I mentioned Elaine Chao's presence on the Wells Fargo board in an earlier post and that's the gift that keeps on giving as she received another payout earlier this years because of stock option.  Now maybe she donated this to charity to avoid any conflict of interest but that has not been disclosed.  We have a good friend who was a US Trade Representative in a past administration who served on Intel, Estee Lauder, and one other board that I cannot remember.  That person's yearly compensation excluding stock and stock options was $950K/year and this was back in 2014 when I looked at the data. 

In the US, a lot of people go on BODs for political reasons and quota filling.  Sometimes they have an understanding of the company and sometimes not.

I live in a town with lots of board-of-directors types, who do very well from it. It's part of the way many people live off what I consider to be "rigged" money, rather than "work" money. The circle works like this: the board and the CEO, who is sometimes chairman of the board and sometimes not, pay each other extremely well, the intention being that any board member who is collecting big bucks for doing almost nothing is not going to vote against the CEO, who probably recruited them, and who may be collecting huge bucks with the board's approval (and actually doing quite a bit of work, but not always well.) There's virtually no way to break that circle, especially with big companies, when voting for the board is rarely a serious matter. Occasionally, a hedge fund or buy-out company may force a board change, but that's usually so the hedge fund or buy-out company can make already bigger bucks that they're already making, for doing not much except arranging large loans of money made easy by the Fed. I've now served on three boards, all non-profits, which are not the same kind of deal, although even there, the board is often rigged in favor of the President or CEO. (See Wounded Warrior.) What I have found is that boards are usually recruited by the CEO, perfunctoraly approved by the other board members, and so the CEO almost always has a majority of the board on his side, no matter how corrupt the operation may be or become. I have to say, I was absolutely astonished when the McDonald's board fired their CEO for having a consensual, but forbidden, relationship with an underling. What astonished me isn't that CEOs are occasionally fired for such a thing, but that the said CEO almost doubled the stock price in five years...and that the board must have known that the firing would produce an immediate drop in the stock price, which it did.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1310 on: November 08, 2019, 03:56:07 pm »

I live in a town with lots of board-of-directors types, who do very well from it. It's part of the way many people live off what I consider to be "rigged" money, rather than "work" money. The circle works like this: the board and the CEO, who is sometimes chairman of the board and sometimes not, pay each other extremely well, the intention being that any board member who is collecting big bucks for doing almost nothing is not going to vote against the CEO, who probably recruited them, and who may be collecting huge bucks with the board's approval (and actually doing quite a bit of work, but not always well.) There's virtually no way to break that circle, especially with big companies, when voting for the board is rarely a serious matter. Occasionally, a hedge fund or buy-out company may force a board change, but that's usually so the hedge fund or buy-out company can make already bigger bucks that they're already making, for doing not much except arranging large loans of money made easy by the Fed. I've now served on three boards, all non-profits, which are not the same kind of deal, although even there, the board is often rigged in favor of the President or CEO. (See Wounded Warrior.) What I have found is that boards are usually recruited by the CEO, perfunctoraly approved by the other board members, and so the CEO almost always has a majority of the board on his side, no matter how corrupt the operation may be or become. I have to say, I was absolutely astonished when the McDonald's board fired their CEO for having a consensual, but forbidden, relationship with an underling. What astonished me isn't that CEOs are occasionally fired for such a thing, but that the said CEO almost doubled the stock price in five years...and that the board must have known that the firing would produce an immediate drop in the stock price, which it did.
So you're confirming that ex-VP Joe Biden's kid got paid $50,000 a month for being just a pawn on the board of the Ukraine corporation.  Now why couldn't my daddy be a political big-wig?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 03:59:41 pm by Alan Klein »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1311 on: November 08, 2019, 05:11:14 pm »

I live in a town with lots of board-of-directors types, who do very well from it. It's part of the way many people live off what I consider to be "rigged" money, rather than "work" money. The circle works like this: the board and the CEO, who is sometimes chairman of the board and sometimes not, pay each other extremely well, the intention being that any board member who is collecting big bucks for doing almost nothing is not going to vote against the CEO, who probably recruited them, and who may be collecting huge bucks with the board's approval (and actually doing quite a bit of work, but not always well.) There's virtually no way to break that circle, especially with big companies, when voting for the board is rarely a serious matter. Occasionally, a hedge fund or buy-out company may force a board change, but that's usually so the hedge fund or buy-out company can make already bigger bucks that they're already making, for doing not much except arranging large loans of money made easy by the Fed.
Most of the shares in US corporations are owned by institutional investors.  Although some of these have proxy policies, they usually vote for management.  Hedge funds are another case and people like Nelson Peltz have forced their way onto BODs and made significant changes (Peltz was largely responsible for the duPont-Dow merger and more recently Procter & Gamble restructuring).  Larry Fink who is CEO of Black Rock, a firm that runs a bunch of ETFs and funds with an aggregate investment of $6.84T (yes, trillion) has been most outspoken about corporate management needing to reform.  I don't know if they have translated this down to proxy voting.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1312 on: November 08, 2019, 06:24:06 pm »

So you're confirming that ex-VP Joe Biden's kid got paid $50,000 a month for being just a pawn on the board of the Ukraine corporation.

It's a bit of a leap to arrive at that conclusion from what John Camp wrote. :)
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John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1313 on: November 08, 2019, 06:37:13 pm »

It's a bit of a leap to arrive at that conclusion from what John Camp wrote. :)

I'd take out that part.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1314 on: November 08, 2019, 07:42:48 pm »

It's a bit of a leap to arrive at that conclusion from what John Camp wrote. :)
If I'm right, he's toast.  We'll know pretty soon.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1315 on: November 09, 2019, 04:07:49 pm »

But the Democrats have complained for three years that Trump's kids are taking advantage of their daddy's political position to line their pockets.  So now you can;t make excuses when Democratic VP Biden's kid does the same thing.  Especially when Joe Biden met with some of these guys personally.  It's going to sink his candidacy as people realize that Biden is also part of the swamp. 

Here it comes:

"House Republicans add Hunter Biden, whistleblower to impeachment hearing witness wishlist"
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/469728-house-republicans-name-hunter-biden-whistleblower-on-impeachment-hearing

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1316 on: November 09, 2019, 04:27:02 pm »

Here it comes:

"House Republicans add Hunter Biden, whistleblower to impeachment hearing witness wishlist"
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/469728-house-republicans-name-hunter-biden-whistleblower-on-impeachment-hearing

Looking forward to what Hunter Biden has to say about, ... Trump's withholding military aid? Was Hunter Biden also listening in on Trump's perfect call? Didn't know that.
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John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1317 on: November 09, 2019, 05:20:44 pm »

Here it comes:

"House Republicans add Hunter Biden, whistleblower to impeachment hearing witness wishlist"
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/469728-house-republicans-name-hunter-biden-whistleblower-on-impeachment-hearing

The key word in that headline is "wishlist."
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1318 on: November 09, 2019, 07:12:02 pm »

The key word in that headline is "wishlist."
Well the Democrats who control the House won;t let the Republicans call him.  They wouldn't wind to embarrass VP Biden. Of course, the trial will be held in the Republican controlled senate where he will be called to testify. Of course, he might not show up.  VP Joe Biden must be beside himself. 

Chris Kern

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1319 on: November 09, 2019, 07:49:22 pm »

Of course, the trial will be held in the Republican controlled senate where [Hunter Biden, former Vice President Biden's son] will be called to testify.

Probably not.  Chief Justice John Roberts will preside over the Senate trial if the House of Representatives adopts articles of impeachment.  While an impeachment is not a judicial proceeding, the Senate rules imply that the usual legal standards for determining what evidence is to be heard apply in impeachment trials. 

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. . . the Presiding Officer on the trial may rule on all questions of evidence including, but not limited to, questions of relevancy, materiality, and redundancy of evidence and incidental questions, which ruling shall stand as the judgment of the Senate, unless some Member of the Senate shall ask that a formal vote be taken thereon, in which case it shall be submitted to the Senate for decision without debate; or he may at his option, in the first instance, submit any such question to a vote of the Members of the Senate. Upon all such questions the vote shall be taken in accordance with the Standing Rules of the Senate.

Rules of Procedure and Practice in the Senate when Sitting on Impeachment Trials, VII

There is no plausible legal theory under which the testimony of Hunter Biden (or his father, for that matter) would be relevant to a determination of whether President Trump abused the power of his office by asking the Ukrainian president to investigate the Bidens (père or fils).  While the senators theoretically might override a ruling by the chief justice, I think it's very unlikely that would ever happen.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 08:39:22 pm by Chris Kern »
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