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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 136528 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #720 on: October 28, 2019, 07:19:37 am »

What's not illegal about soliciting a foreign state to interfere with the US elections?


Ask Hillary. 

In all seriousness, it is either Trump asked them to help with his re-election OR Trump asked them to investigate the 2016 election interference, which the Dems already shown is okay to do along with holding back aid to get them to do so since they did the same exact thing to the same exact country during the same exact term. 

All evidence is pointing to the latter being what happened.  If there is a smoking gun that proves the former, by all means vote for impeachment, but as of right now there is not any. 

Furthermore, this whole conversation is ignoring the fact that the Senate, with the current evidence, will not convict and that either Warren or Biden will get the ticket, both of which guarantee Trump's re-election.  Warren because she is too far left and will never get the swing states (and even some blue ones IMHO), and Biden because his campaign has no enthusiasm and cant even raise any money. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #721 on: October 28, 2019, 07:54:45 am »

Come on now.  The Dems are currently holding secret hearings and selectively leaking what supports their narrative to the public, not to mention the two year Muller probe that was put into motion before Trump was even sworn in.  On top of that, officials in the White House have been leaking information to the press since Trump was first sworn in.  Last, in the coming weeks a book is being released supposedly written by a (coward who lacks his convictions too quit) senior official in the White House. 

"It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you."
Why do you try to conflate all kinds of different things?  The impeachment inquiry is just as secret as the Kenneth Starr investigation of Clinton and the special prosecutor's investigation of Nixon.  What is wrong with that?  Both of those reports ended up being released and discussed by Congress during subsequent deliberations.  The impeachment inquiry will travel down the same path.  Do you have any special knowledge of who is leaking what?  How do you know it is not a Republican(s) that is doing the leaking?  The Muller investigation was designed to examine specific questions about Russian influence on the 2016 election.  do you think this was not a good thing?  Do you favor foreign involvement in US elections?  As for the 'anonymous' book that may be coming out, who cares?  One of the most famous articles on foreign policy was published anonymously back in 1947 about the Soviet pressure on free institutions in the West and what should be done to 'contain' it.  the author of that piece was George Kennan, a famous diplomat and civil servant (maybe he was even the first member of the 'deep state').

As to your final quote, Thomas Pynchon said this with much more insight in his Proverbs for Paranoids (always useful to read and re-read 'Gravity's Rainbow' to understand how the world works).  My favorite of the five is, "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."  This is of course our President's strategy and maybe a good one for him but not the American public.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #722 on: October 28, 2019, 08:01:31 am »

Why do you try to conflate all kinds of different things?  The impeachment inquiry is just as secret as the Kenneth Starr investigation of Clinton and the special prosecutor's investigation of Nixon.  What is wrong with that?  Both of those reports ended up being released and discussed by Congress during subsequent deliberations.  The impeachment inquiry will travel down the same path.  Do you have any special knowledge of who is leaking what?  How do you know it is not a Republican(s) that is doing the leaking?  The Muller investigation was designed to examine specific questions about Russian influence on the 2016 election.  do you think this was not a good thing?  Do you favor foreign involvement in US elections?  As for the 'anonymous' book that may be coming out, who cares?  One of the most famous articles on foreign policy was published anonymously back in 1947 about the Soviet pressure on free institutions in the West and what should be done to 'contain' it.  the author of that piece was George Kennan, a famous diplomat and civil servant (maybe he was even the first member of the 'deep state').

As to your final quote, Thomas Pynchon said this with much more insight in his Proverbs for Paranoids (always useful to read and re-read 'Gravity's Rainbow' to understand how the world works).  My favorite of the five is, "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."  This is of course our President's strategy and maybe a good one for him but not the American public.

The point is, leaking is taking place in many different places, much more then with previous Presidents.  It is happening in Congress and in the White House.  Trump has every right to be concerned about things leaking to the Press and screwing up missions, like this raid. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #723 on: October 28, 2019, 09:23:33 am »

The point is, leaking is taking place in many different places, much more then with previous Presidents.  It is happening in Congress and in the White House.  Trump has every right to be concerned about things leaking to the Press and screwing up missions, like this raid.

If it's true that there are more leaks now than with previous administrations, it may be interesting to ask why. Is it to do with Trump or is it simply because online media is more pervasive now so there are more opportunities. In some small part though, doesn't Trump sort of invite it since he seems to conduct so much of his policy making on Twitter.

Anyway, isn't he supposed to be such a clever CEO/businessman media-savvy entrepreneur? He had GOP majorities in both houses to begin with but his administration seemed confused right out the gate. And we still hear people complain about how the media is against him. Well, boo-hoo, is my response. Grow a pair and act like a President, I say. Am I really supposed t believe that the "fake news" New York Times has more power that POTUS, that's a reach, isn't it?

And I am also confused about the complaints about secret investigations. Investigations are always conducted in secret, it's the trials that are public. What's wrong with that, seems like a good arrangement to me. Can you imagine televised police interrogations on cable? Those criticisms are a phoney distraction, nothing more.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #724 on: October 28, 2019, 09:33:26 am »

And then they needed American forces to finish the job.  So that's why we partnered with them to kill ISIS.

And betrayed them with a free Turkish massacre and displacement of 160,000 citizens.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #725 on: October 28, 2019, 09:39:35 am »

Ask Hillary. 

In all seriousness, it is either Trump asked them to help with his re-election OR Trump asked them to investigate the 2016 election interference, which the Dems already shown is okay to do along with holding back aid to get them to do so since they did the same exact thing to the same exact country during the same exact term. 

All evidence is pointing to the latter being what happened.  If there is a smoking gun that proves the former, by all means vote for impeachment, but as of right now there is not any. 

Furthermore, this whole conversation is ignoring the fact that the Senate, with the current evidence, will not convict and that either Warren or Biden will get the ticket, both of which guarantee Trump's re-election.  Warren because she is too far left and will never get the swing states (and even some blue ones IMHO), and Biden because his campaign has no enthusiasm and cant even raise any money. 
+1  It's perfectly legal for a president to ask another leader to investigate if there's reason to believe the American commited a crime.  The president may get a political benefit from it.  But what's the alternative?  Let the American get away with the crime?  Both things can happen simultaneous.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #726 on: October 28, 2019, 09:44:14 am »

If there was a Quid pro quo with Biden, it will be just as illegal as the one Trump committed. Why would it not be? It isn't because you look at this as a political topic that it's one, or that people thinking Trump should be impreached do.

Why on earth would Republicans be looking for a quid Pro quo involving Biden if it were a legal practice though...

I hope you see the crazy inconsistency between claiming simultaneously that a Quid Pro Quo isn't illegal and saying "look, the other camp did it too"... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Holding back American aid to get the recipient country to investigate an American who may have committed a crime is not illegal. 

Let me tell you a little secret.  It's exactly why America gives aid.  So we can control foreign countries.  Duh. 

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #727 on: October 28, 2019, 09:46:31 am »

+1  It's perfectly legal for a president to ask another leader to investigate if there's reason to believe the American commited a crime.  The president may get a political benefit from it.  But what's the alternative?  Let the American get away with the crime?  Both things can happen simultaneous.

You and Joe are incorrect.  This explains it in detail.  . See the pull quote below for the directly relevant part. Perhaps Chris Kern could comment further...


Quote
Even if Trump and Giuliani sincerely believe that Trump was wronged in the 2016 election or that his opponents are criminals, this does not make their 2019 desire for vindication, revenge or political advantage into a public, rather than private, interest. If they think Americans have committed crimes, they could have brought those allegations to the public institutions that investigate such allegations, which must follow certain rules—including in an international investigation. Trump and Giuliani did not do that. What they therefore must prove, against the prima facie evidence of bad, private intent, is that they really believed—even falsely—that working on these 2016 allegations would help clean up Ukrainian politics in 2019.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #728 on: October 28, 2019, 10:04:05 am »

You and Joe are incorrect.  This explains it in detail.  . See the pull quote below for the directly relevant part. Perhaps Chris Kern could comment further...


The article you referenced is practically a lawyer's brief.  It's like complicated papers they submit to a court in a trial.  You can't even explain it.  So you now need to call on another lawyer, Chris, to explain the first lawyer's explanation as to why the president did something illegal, then it's about politics, not the law.  Should we get another lawyer to write a brief as to what Trump did was legal?  You know that's what happens in a trial.  Both sides get to present their case.

The case is very simple. If Trump used aid to try to force Ukraine to investigate Biden and corruption in general, then it's legal.  If he used it only for political advantage, then it would be illegal.  Even if it was illegal, then  the question becomes does it rise to the level our "Treason, bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors" to make it an impeachable offense or is it just political hijinks typical in American politics.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #729 on: October 28, 2019, 10:05:54 am »

+1  It's perfectly legal for a president to ask another leader to investigate if there's a reason to believe the American commited a crime.

Q: What reason? That Giuliani was already conspiring with people linked to Russian Oligarchs to create/fabricate dirt?
Trump's son didn't even work at Burisma when the corrupt prosecutor was ousted after combined international pressure agianst corruption.
Instead, a less corrupt prosecutor was put in place.

Q: Then why hide the transcript of the call on a different server with more restricted access than all other call transcripts?

Q: Why the many concerned staffers who knew that when Trump went off-script it caused legal issues?

A: Because they thought/knew it was illegal.

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #730 on: October 28, 2019, 10:49:35 am »

The point is, leaking is taking place in many different places, much more then with previous Presidents.  It is happening in Congress and in the White House.  Trump has every right to be concerned about things leaking to the Press and screwing up missions, like this raid.
Does hard data exist for this statement?  there are probably many more leaks coming out of the White House than Congress.  Virtually all Congressional activity is open to the public other than Intelligence Committee work.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #731 on: October 28, 2019, 10:53:31 am »

+1  It's perfectly legal for a president to ask another leader to investigate if there's reason to believe the American commited a crime.  The president may get a political benefit from it.  But what's the alternative?  Let the American get away with the crime?  Both things can happen simultaneous.
...and to extrapolate in a fair manner, it is perfectly legal for Congress to investigate the President if they believe he committed a '...high crime or misdemeanor..' 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #732 on: October 28, 2019, 11:01:00 am »

...and to extrapolate in a fair manner, it is perfectly legal for Congress to investigate the President if they believe he committed a '...high crime or misdemeanor..' 
Yes, but the public can also see that as just political as they did with the Clinton impeachment.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #733 on: October 28, 2019, 11:04:27 am »

And betrayed them with a free Turkish massacre and displacement of 160,000 citizens.


We didn't betray them.  You Europeans betrayed them after WWI. A hundred years ago and have done nothing to help them ever since. At least we saved them from ISIS.  What did you do?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #734 on: October 28, 2019, 12:00:52 pm »

We didn't betray them.  You Europeans betrayed them after WWI. A hundred years ago and have done nothing to help them ever since. At least we saved them from ISIS.  What did you do?

As one of the coalition members we supplied air support with an F-16s squadron in Syria and Irak, and financial and material support ("non-Lethal Assistence") to 22 select Rebel groups. We're just a small country (17 million people), but we do what we can do (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War).

Today, the first of 46 ordered F35 Lightning II jets arrives in the Netherlands after lots of delays due to technical issues. Pilots have been trained, and we manufacture parts for the F35. This allows us to keepcontributing our bit in NATO, as long as it's a coalition. Let's hope it was the right choice, instead of e.g. a Swedish alternative.
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/netherlands
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faberryman

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #735 on: October 28, 2019, 12:05:48 pm »

+1  It's perfectly legal for a president to ask another leader to investigate if there's reason to believe the American commited a crime.  The president may get a political benefit from it.  But what's the alternative?  Let the American get away with the crime?  Both things can happen simultaneous.

What crime are you talking about?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 12:53:56 pm by faberryman »
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John Camp

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #736 on: October 28, 2019, 12:46:24 pm »

The point is, leaking is taking place in many different places, much more then with previous Presidents.  It is happening in Congress and in the White House.  Trump has every right to be concerned about things leaking to the Press and screwing up missions, like this raid.

You do know that the first leak about the raid came from Trump, when he tweeted that something big was coming? It was after the raid, but before they'd confirmed the identity of the dead man, and when it was presumably still secret?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #737 on: October 28, 2019, 12:56:43 pm »

As one of the coalition members we supplied air support with an F-16s squadron in Syria and Irak, and financial and material support ("non-Lethal Assistence") to 22 select Rebel groups. We're just a small country (17 million people), but we do what we can do (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War).

Today, the first of 46 ordered F35 Lightning II jets arrives in the Netherlands after lots of delays due to technical issues. Pilots have been trained, and we manufacture parts for the F35. This allows us to keepcontributing our bit in NATO, as long as it's a coalition. Let's hope it was the right choice, instead of e.g. a Swedish alternative.
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/netherlands
ISIS was a threat to Europe.   They committed acts of terror there so you were also fighting for yourselves as were the Kurds and the US fighting for themselves.   So it wasn't an act of charity.  But your effort there is appreciated. But how can the Netherlands and America,  both NATO countries,  go against another NATO country Turkey.   We're supposed to be helping Turkey against Kurdish terrorists wanting to take Turkish lands this themselves.   Wouldn't you want us to support the Dutch in such a situation? After all,  Turkey has supported us for decades.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #738 on: October 28, 2019, 12:59:08 pm »

You're getting caught up in American politics trying to make a Republican president look bad for the elections coming up.   It has nothing to do with the Kurds

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #739 on: October 28, 2019, 01:24:47 pm »

You're getting caught up in American politics trying to make a Republican president look bad for the elections coming up.   It has nothing to do with the Kurds

This must be an awfully important photo forum if you think that a few contributors can affect a US election.
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