Pages: 1 ... 34 35 [36] 37 38 ... 196   Go Down

Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 136664 times)

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #700 on: October 27, 2019, 07:43:00 pm »

Given the current political climate of lynching the president at all and any costs, it is not inconceivable that Pelosi, other Democrats, or thier staff would leak the info just to make Trump look bad. You think I am exaggerating? Rumor has it that Reagan asked the Iranians to free the hostages not during Carter's reign, but when he comes to power. Literally twenty minutes after Reagan's inauguration speech, the hostages were freed. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Surprise_conspiracy_theory
It's not Pelosi who would leak.  But Schiff, the head of the House Intelligence Committee, who would and has.  He is the natural recipient of news like this. Yet there he is leaking all the time like a sieve in his attempt to impeach Trump and make him look bad at any cost to the country.  No offense to the legal profession.  But I've met lawyers and I've met lawyers.  And this guy is the sleaziest.  He'd sell out his mother for an advantage. 

Frans Waterlander

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 873
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #701 on: October 27, 2019, 07:43:41 pm »

The example was indeed exaggerated and I apologize.

The real, and totally valid question, is how far would Trump have to go to lose support from its base. So far I haven’t seen any hint that there is a limit.

So, a non-apology.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #702 on: October 27, 2019, 07:46:05 pm »

Frans, let's be generous.  I read it as a sincere apology. 

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #703 on: October 27, 2019, 07:50:27 pm »

Neither Trump nor Obama deserve any credit other than saying yes to the assassination(s).  The military and intelligence did 98% of the work.  I never gave Obama any credit for bin Laden and I won't give Trump any credit for this.

Well said. And 2% presidential credit for "yes, do it" is overly generous.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #704 on: October 27, 2019, 07:52:09 pm »

Well said. And 2% presidential credit for "yes, do it" is overly generous.

And yet, Carter lost election because of it. So, you may or may not give credit, but the importance of success or failure (in case of Carter) is huge,

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #705 on: October 27, 2019, 07:56:17 pm »

And yet, Carter lost election because of it. So, you may or may not give credit, but the importance of success or failure (in case of Carter) is huge,

Well, in that case maybe the intelligence analysis and risk assessment by the military advisers were to blame.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #706 on: October 27, 2019, 08:02:38 pm »

And yet, Carter lost election because of it. So, you may or may not give credit, but the importance of success or failure (in case of Carter) is huge,
For those not familiar with Slobodan's reference, here's an article about the disastrous rescue attempt President Carter did to get out American embassy hostages being held in Iran.  8 American servicemen died in the operation, 6 helicopters and 1 transport plane were lost, and the rescue was a complete failure.  Carter said this was the reason he lost his bid for re-election. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw#Casualties

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #707 on: October 27, 2019, 08:04:56 pm »

Well, in that case maybe the intelligence analysis and risk assessment by the military advisers were to blame.

Perhaps, but it was he who lost the next election because of it. After all, he gave the order to abort the mission.

While Americans in general tend to give a disproportionate credit or blame to personalities, be it Saddam, Slobodan, or a CEO,  2% is way too low. After all, CEOs, leaders, presidents, etc. set the tone, provide direction, select personnel, etc. In that sense, Obama did deserve a decent amount of credit. As Bush deserves a decent amount of blame for dismantling a CIA unit in charge of pursuing Bin Laden (decision that may or may not have had a direct impact on 9/11). In other words, give Trump credit when credit is due.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #708 on: October 27, 2019, 08:07:25 pm »

Well, in that case maybe the intelligence analysis and risk assessment by the military advisers were to blame.
Unlike Obama who blamed Bush for 7 years, Americans hold their leaders responsible.  That's the way of the world.  Democrat President Truman had a plaque on his desk in the Oval Office of the White House:  "The Buck Stops Here"

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #709 on: October 27, 2019, 08:14:33 pm »

The intelligence team does the research, military experts work out the worst and best scenarios, and the president rolls the dice.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #710 on: October 27, 2019, 08:17:38 pm »

Perhaps, but it was he who lost the next election because of it. After all, he gave the order to abort the mission.

While Americans in general tend to give a disproportionate credit or blame to personalities, be it Saddam, Slobodan, or a CEO,  2% is way too low. After all, CEOs, leaders, presidents, etc. set the tone, provide direction, select personnel, etc. In that sense, Obama did deserve a decent amount of credit. As Bush deserves a decent amount of blame for dismantling a CIA unit in charge of pursuing Bin Laden (decision that may or may not have had a direct impact on 9/11). In other words, give Trump credit when credit is due.
As an officer aboard a nuclear submarine, who served in the US Navy for 7 years, Carter was very familiar with the stern belief that captains of ships are ultimately the ones responsible for what happens on their ship.  The Navy does not like finger pointing and passing the buck. Interestingly, the USS Jimmy Carter is the only US submarine names after a living president, something Carter must be very proud of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Jimmy_Carter

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8913
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #711 on: October 27, 2019, 08:20:04 pm »

In other words, give Trump credit when credit is due.

Okay, the Kurds did a fantastic job. They tracked down the target 4-5 weeks ago in area that was inaccessible to the USA forces.
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #712 on: October 27, 2019, 09:21:44 pm »

Okay, the Kurds did a fantastic job. They tracked down the target 4-5 weeks ago in area that was inaccessible to the USA forces.
And then they needed American forces to finish the job.  So that's why we partnered with them to kill ISIS.  But we never promised to build them a homeland and war with Turkey our and your NATO partner. 

John Camp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2171
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #714 on: October 27, 2019, 10:46:12 pm »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States
John, because of politics, you can't rate acting presidents.  Obviously, because Democrats oppose him,  you immediately have half the population saying he's bad.  A stupid and meaningless statistic. You have to wait at least twenty years, preferably longer after they're out of office and they're dead and buried when no one cares about them any longer.  In any case, what does rating a president have to do with impeachment.  If you don;t like him, don't vote for him in 2020. 

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #715 on: October 28, 2019, 01:36:00 am »

1. First off, what he did was not illegal. Demanding a foreign country do things for us when we give them money is standard quid pro quo. You have a right to ask a drunk on the street who you just gave $5 to spend it on food and not a drink.  Well, the president was asking for Ukraine to clean up it's corruption, the same as Obama demanded they do.  He also asked to check on Biden who may have illegally used his position to violate US as well as Ukrainian law helping his son get a job and escape criminal investigation, all part of the corruption going on in the Ukraine.  Of course there's a side benefit that Biden is a political foe.  However, how is that different than Democrat congressman investigating Trump for the last three years for potential criminal activity knowing that they would benefit if it turns out Trump commiting a crime?  If Trump isn't above the law, neither is Vice President Biden.  If Democrats can get a side benefit politically from an legal investigation, why can't the Republicans?  None of it is illegal.  It's just politics. 

It's illegal at 2 levels:
1. Asking a foreign leader for help against a political opponent is illegal even without a quid Pro quo. It's easy to understand why, this is a threat to democracy. Think about how any former President of the US would have been treated had they done the same thing (and you can be 100% it would known had they done it),
2. Quid Pro Quos are illegal too, even if the White House says they do it all the time, it doesn't make it any more legal just like drunks driving drunk every day aren't any more allowed to do so. It just makes it profoundly illegal.

2. I'm glad you brought this up.  Trump is actually a liberal in many of his beliefs.  Being a New Yorker helps.  He never got excited about race issues, gays, and issues like that.  He's worked with these people all his life.   He's a cosmopolitan who lives and works and helped build the largest liberal, Democrat city in the USA, bar none. Remember, he won the election convincing traditional, blue-collar Democrats to vote for him.  They felt he was one of them. Many Republicans actually find he's too liberal for them, certainly not a VP Pence.  Republican newspapers still support him because his policies are still miles ahead conservatively of liberals like Warren and AOC.  Unfortunately, these newspapers and media, except for Fox, don't have the same power to influence as do the rest of the liberal, Democrat media.  So the latter set the tone and spin of the news.  It's very frustrating for Republicans to realize the press is almost never on their side.

As mentioned, this isn't about how the press depicts Trump's actions, it's about how illegal they are.

Besides, I keep wondering how far Trump would have to go for you and other to drop your apparently unconditional support.

Cheers,
Bernard

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #716 on: October 28, 2019, 01:44:54 am »

Bernard,

1) it remains to be seen if anything illegal happened.
2) how was Biden’s quid pro quo legal? He asked for a prosecutor to be fired (quid) in order to release money (quo).

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #717 on: October 28, 2019, 03:21:07 am »

Bernard,

1) it remains to be seen if anything illegal happened.
2) how was Biden’s quid pro quo legal? He asked for a prosecutor to be fired (quid) in order to release money (quo).

If there was a Quid pro quo with Biden, it will be just as illegal as the one Trump committed. Why would it not be? It isn't because you look at this as a political topic that it's one, or that people thinking Trump should be impreached do.

Why on earth would Republicans be looking for a quid Pro quo involving Biden if it were a legal practice though...

I hope you see the crazy inconsistency between claiming simultaneously that a Quid Pro Quo isn't illegal and saying "look, the other camp did it too"... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

jeremyrh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2511
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #718 on: October 28, 2019, 04:14:43 am »

Bernard,

1) it remains to be seen if anything illegal happened.
2) how was Biden’s quid pro quo legal? He asked for a prosecutor to be fired (quid) in order to release money (quo).

The difference is that Trump benefited personally whereas Biden did not.

But you knew that.
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8913
Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #719 on: October 28, 2019, 05:26:20 am »

Bernard,

1) it remains to be seen if anything illegal happened.

What's not illegal about soliciting a foreign state to interfere with the US elections?

Quote
2) how was Biden’s quid pro quo legal? He asked for a prosecutor to be fired (quid) in order to release money (quo).

That's a different subject, and an off-topic diversion attempt. But by all means, investigate it. If it was illegal, and Congress was not informed, then Trump's quid pro quo was also illegal.
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==
Pages: 1 ... 34 35 [36] 37 38 ... 196   Go Up