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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 136580 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1760 on: November 27, 2019, 11:36:27 am »

I didn't hear much protest from Republicans when the 3 female members of Congress, AKA "The Squad", were told to go back to where they came from, a common racial euphemism.

It's not a racial comment but rather one of nationality and immigration and ignorance of American ways.  What the expression is saying is, If you don;t like it here in America the way we do things, then go back from where you came.  It's a dismissive put down that in effect reminds them they are a foreigner and acting like an ignorant immigrant who hasn't learned the ways of America.  It can also is used against people who are the same color and background as you are when you disagree with their viewpoints.    It was a comment my friends and I would use against each other when I was a kid.  The idea being that they are acting like an ignorant immigrant even though they're not an immigrant.   I couldn;t expect you to understand American English idiomatic expressions.  But your understanding of it is wrong based on the Democrats deliberate misuse and misinterpretation of words.  They make everything into a racial comment when they aren't.  It's an example of the race card.

I'm sure you have expressions that are negative about immigrants in your country as well. 

PeterAit

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1761 on: November 27, 2019, 11:39:09 am »

What do your statistics have to do with racism?

Can you seriously ask that question? This is almost the definition of racism--people being treated differently because of their skin color and ethnicity.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1762 on: November 27, 2019, 11:47:59 am »

Can you seriously ask that question? This is almost the definition of racism--people being treated differently because of their skin color and ethnicity.
Your logic is misinformed. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1763 on: November 27, 2019, 12:02:05 pm »

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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1764 on: November 27, 2019, 12:27:30 pm »

It's not a racial comment but rather one of nationality and immigration and ignorance of American ways.  What the expression is saying is, If you don;t like it here in America the way we do things, then go back from where you came.  It's a dismissive put down that in effect reminds them they are a foreigner and acting like an ignorant immigrant who hasn't learned the ways of America.  It can also is used against people who are the same color and background as you are when you disagree with their viewpoints.    It was a comment my friends and I would use against each other when I was a kid.  The idea being that they are acting like an ignorant immigrant even though they're not an immigrant.   I couldn;t expect you to understand American English idiomatic expressions.  But your understanding of it is wrong based on the Democrats deliberate misuse and misinterpretation of words.  They make everything into a racial comment when they aren't.  It's an example of the race card.

I'm sure you have expressions that are negative about immigrants in your country as well.

Oh, come on. Everyone knows what he meant and so do you.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1765 on: November 27, 2019, 12:40:42 pm »

Race started to become promoted as ooh! and wow! with the advent of another tv show (the name of which I forget) where an old guy plays a low-class white character who is blatantly racist but is usually shown up as being very ignorant.

It was called Till Death Us Do Part, Rob. Starred Warren Mitchell as Alf Garnett and was renowned, in those far-off and innocent days, as much for his frequent use of the swear word "bloody" as for his racism and xenophobia.

If I recall correctly, Garnett's son-in-law was played by Cherie Blair's father.

Jeremy
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1766 on: November 27, 2019, 01:05:51 pm »

Can you seriously ask that question? This is almost the definition of racism--people being treated differently because of their skin color and ethnicity.

Correlation does not imply causation.  One of the main tenants of Sociology. 

Say it with me now, "Correlation does not imply causation." 

There, now that we have that out of the way, a social study showing statistical disparities related to peoples races does not mean that racism had anything to with the disparities.  You need to do a little more research to get to that point. 

Making that assumption is the same exact way anti-vaxxers came up with the idea that vaccines cause autism.  This is literally exactly how the anti-vax movement started. 

Another example, women only make 10.4% of the prison population.  I guess that means the criminal justice system is sexist against men.  Oh wait, oops, that's right, correlation does not imply causation.  My bad. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 01:10:03 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1767 on: November 27, 2019, 02:04:29 pm »

Oh, come on. Everyone knows what he meant and so do you.
So you know what I meant too, I suppose.   I guess I'm just one of Hillary's deplorables.  You know every time you play the race card you remind lots of people just how hateful and insulting the left really is.

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1768 on: November 27, 2019, 02:33:21 pm »

It's not a racial comment but rather one of nationality and immigration and ignorance of American ways.  What the expression is saying is, If you don;t like it here in America the way we do things, then go back from where you came.  It's a dismissive put down that in effect reminds them they are a foreigner and acting like an ignorant immigrant who hasn't learned the ways of America.  It can also is used against people who are the same color and background as you are when you disagree with their viewpoints.    It was a comment my friends and I would use against each other when I was a kid.  The idea being that they are acting like an ignorant immigrant even though they're not an immigrant.   I couldn;t expect you to understand American English idiomatic expressions.  But your understanding of it is wrong based on the Democrats deliberate misuse and misinterpretation of words.  They make everything into a racial comment when they aren't.  It's an example of the race card.

I'm sure you have expressions that are negative about immigrants in your country as well.

No, that was pretty much a racist comment, Alan, and Bart has the idiomatic understanding exactly right.   As I said, I don't believe all conservatives/Republicans/Trump voters are racists in the slightest. But some are, and some of Trump's public actions play to that.  This is one instance that certainly did.
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1769 on: November 27, 2019, 02:38:15 pm »

Correlation does not imply causation.  One of the main tenants of Sociology. 

Say it with me now, "Correlation does not imply causation." 

There, now that we have that out of the way, a social study showing statistical disparities related to peoples races does not mean that racism had anything to with the disparities.  You need to do a little more research to get to that point. 

Making that assumption is the same exact way anti-vaxxers came up with the idea that vaccines cause autism.  This is literally exactly how the anti-vax movement started. 

Another example, women only make 10.4% of the prison population.  I guess that means the criminal justice system is sexist against men.  Oh wait, oops, that's right, correlation does not imply causation.  My bad.

Of course you have to go a layer deeper, but no one here is writing a thesis ;)  Thing is, you don't have to go THAT much deeper at all if you're trying to ferret out evidence of institutional racism, anecdotal counter-examples like Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson etc. aside.   

As for your question about how whether or not the criminal justice system is biased against men?  Well, yes, it does seem to be.  Do you need me to dig up studies showing institutional disparities in criminal sentencing for minorities, or disparities in hiring equally qualified candidates?   I mean, you know I can, but do you really not believe it?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 02:44:42 pm by James Clark »
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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1770 on: November 27, 2019, 02:41:54 pm »

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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1771 on: November 27, 2019, 03:12:03 pm »

Of course you have to go a layer deeper, but no one here is writing a thesis ;)  Thing is, you don't have to go THAT much deeper at all if you're trying to ferret out evidence of institutional racism, anecdotal counter-examples like Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson etc. aside.   

As for your question about how whether or not the criminal justice system is biased against men?  Well, yes, it does seem to be.  Do you need me to dig up studies showing institutional disparities in criminal sentencing for minorities, or disparities in hiring equally qualified candidates?   I mean, you know I can, but do you really not believe it?

Sure, no one is writing a thesis, but that does not excuse them from ignoring basic scientific norms on research, listing a whole bunch of stats and jumping to causation.  Like I said, this is the mentality that created the anti-vaxxer movement. 

Additionally, whenever I dig deeper into this I find two different kinds of opinions. 

Those on the left who insist that it is all about racism, or simply dont want to have the difficult conversation, or those whom list racism as one of many causes but with the primary causes being mainly cultural issues, such as a significant increase in the rate of single parent households (which have been shown, across all cultures, as being detrimental to the social development of a child), amongst other things of course. 

So, if we really want to have this conversation and discuss racism as it pertains to certain societal issues, then you better be fine with talking about cultural issues as well that can both be a net positive for a group (like with Asian-Americans) or a net negative with others. 

I'm all for honest dialect, but that has to go both ways, and the left today wants nothing of it.  Buttigieg was crucified, by the left, yesterday for saying that minority children in poor neighborhoods often don't see the value in education since they have no positive role models to look up to, which is true.  Any teacher will tell you this. 

I just cant see why anyone would actually contest this and call him a lying motherf#@&er for it.  Really, I never thought I would be defending Buttigieg from the left. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 03:18:07 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1772 on: November 27, 2019, 03:20:45 pm »

Also, back on topic, "Rudy?  Yeah.. he did some lawyer stuff for me, but I have a lot of lawyers.  The BEST lawyers.  I really don't know any of them that well."

Will no one rid him of this meddlesome mayor??

 ;D :o ::)

Not a surprise, not that I am justifying it, I was just expecting this sooner or later. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1773 on: November 27, 2019, 03:41:42 pm »

No, that was pretty much a racist comment, Alan, and Bart has the idiomatic understanding exactly right.   As I said, I don't believe all conservatives/Republicans/Trump voters are racists in the slightest. But some are, and some of Trump's public actions play to that.  This is one instance that certainly did.
Wrong.  I used the expression exactly as I described.  If an immigrant comes here and disrespects America, then they should go back where they came from.  It's got nothing to do with race.  If a Muslim immigrated to the Netherlands and disrespected the Dutch and the Netherlands, I would expect Dutch citizens to feel similarly.  Who needs unpatriotic people among us.  It's one thing if they were born here.  You have to put up with their hatred.  But if they came here looking to be Americans, then they should show some gratitude and appreciation and loyalty.  Otherwise who needs them.  They should go back where they came from.  Now what Trump said and meant, I don;t know.  I'm not getting in his head only describing my understand of the idiom. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1774 on: November 27, 2019, 03:43:57 pm »

Not a surprise, not that I am justifying it, I was just expecting this sooner or later. 
What did Rudy do that could land him in jail?  There may be political fallout.  But what legal jeopardy is he in?

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James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1776 on: November 27, 2019, 03:53:57 pm »

Wrong.  I used the expression exactly as I described.  If an immigrant comes here and disrespects America, then they should go back where they came from.  It's got nothing to do with race.  If a Muslim immigrated to the Netherlands and disrespected the Dutch and the Netherlands, I would expect Dutch citizens to feel similarly.  Who needs unpatriotic people among us.  It's one thing if they were born here.  You have to put up with their hatred.  But if they came here looking to be Americans, then they should show some gratitude and appreciation and loyalty.  Otherwise who needs them.  They should go back where they came from.  Now what Trump said and meant, I don;t know.  I'm not getting in his head only describing my understand of the idiom.

I was referring to Trump’s usage, not your explanation.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1777 on: November 27, 2019, 04:12:26 pm »

Can you seriously ask that question? This is almost the definition of racism--people being treated differently because of their skin color and ethnicity.

Pleaseeeeeeee!!!

Nobody is treated differently because they belong to a group with a different skin color, but because they belong to a group that is disproportionately criminal.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1778 on: November 27, 2019, 04:14:05 pm »

I was referring to Trump’s usage, not your explanation.
I went back and checked what he said.  See below.  It's not racist but exactly as I described it to mean.  The mistake he made though was that only one of the four were foreigners originally.  But the meaning was as I described.  Now you may not agree with his accusation.  You may feel that they are loyal and I can see where people are upset calling congresswomen those names.  I don;t like it either to attack congresswomen as they were elected by their consituency.  Just as Trump was elected by his voters.  But the comment was not racist but rather nationalistic.  There's a difference.  Trouble is the Democrats and left turn every comment into a racist trope.  They play the race card so often, they can't see that there can be other things driving people's opinions.  We can't have a conversation about anything without it turning into an argument about race. 

"“So interesting to see ‘Progressive’ Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world,” Mr. Trump wrote on Twitter, “now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run.”

Mr. Trump added: “Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how it is done.”"

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1779 on: November 27, 2019, 04:24:02 pm »

Pleaseeeeeeee!!!

Nobody is treated differently because they belong to a group with a different skin color, but because they belong to a group that is disproportionately criminal.

And why do you suppose that group is considered "disproportionately criminal?"  And if, in fact, they are, what makes them that way?
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