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Author Topic: Impeaching Donald Trump  (Read 138396 times)

James Clark

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1740 on: November 26, 2019, 10:54:32 pm »

Don't go there.   You're better than that.

Let me be clear - I'm not in the camp of "all Republicans are racist," or "all Trump supporters are racist."  I think both of those generalizations are unfair and harmful. I do think it's problematic that the deepest red parts of the nation are also some of the states with the highest black populations, but the lowest black Congressional representation.  Why? I'm not sure, but it's not great, we can probably agree.

In a larger sense, I do think that parts of the Trump platform play on racial and ethnic fears, and I do think it attracts some portion of the Republican base, and I wish y'all would speak up about it more.  I referenced Stephen Miller several posts back.  That guy has no business being anywhere near the corridors of power, and it doesn't reflect well on your party that he is.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1741 on: November 26, 2019, 11:07:06 pm »

Let me be clear - I'm not in the camp of "all Republicans are racist," or "all Trump supporters are racist."  I think both of those generalizations are unfair and harmful. I do think it's problematic that the deepest red parts of the nation are also some of the states with the highest black populations, but the lowest black Congressional representation.  Why? I'm not sure, but it's not great, we can probably agree.

In a larger sense, I do think that parts of the Trump platform play on racial and ethnic fears, and I do think it attracts some portion of the Republican base. 


I understand your concern and there's a certain amount of truth.  Much of it is caused by democrat party traditionally calling everyone racists if they don;t support the "Black agenda", whatever that is.  So it drives people to the other side because everyone wants political protection.  If Democrats push them away, they go to the other party.  Of course then what happens is the other party, republican, may do things that appeases the concerns of some of their members.  It becomes a circle.   That's why playing the race card is so dangerous because it divides people along racial lines for political power.  Politicians use it for their own desire for power.  It's very hurtful to the country.  After Obama was elected, I was hopeful it would stop.  It actually got worse. 

There are other more practical reasons why blacks support democrats.  The democrat party has traditionally supported programs for the poor, workers, etc.  So if you;re poor, and its not only blacks but poor whites too, you're attracted to the democrat party.  The republican party has been the party of business and governmental restraint fiscally (no longer it seems).  So it's natural that 90+% of blacks vote democrat.  I think that's changing as black gain higher positions in business, do better economically as they are doing, and generally becoming more powerful and rich.  So they too look at fiscal responsibility differently.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1742 on: November 26, 2019, 11:39:24 pm »

Warren will soon be going home to her teepee as she loses half her supporters in the last month.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/26/warren-nosedives-buttigieg-climbs-poll-074054

That leaves Biden with higher ratings all the more reason for Nancy to shut down the impeachment to avoid the Bidens getting called to testify about Ukraine and $50K a month salaries.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1743 on: November 27, 2019, 01:02:48 am »

How many of those have an (R) by their name?

Smart people are generally a minority ;)

Rob C

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1744 on: November 27, 2019, 05:16:48 am »

The tradition of 'zwarte Piet' has not the same meaning here that 'black face' has for Americans- It has a different background and goes centuries back...
For the vast majority of Dutch people it was not connected to any kind of racism. It had lost its connection to slavery and the character was adopted as part of a fairytale, but of course there was a connection.
By exposing it and giving much publicity to it, we now have to redefine the 'zwarte Piet' and so we do.
'Zwarte Piet' always climbs through chimneys to deliver presents to children, so that is why they are black and now they are played by people with strikes of black in the face instead of totaly black.

Like Bart I am not against Americans at all, but against Trumps behaviour and decisions as a President and before.
When you state that "the US are legions ahead of Europe when it comes to accepting people of different races"  i cannot agree.
We have no Klu Klux Klan, we have no cops that shoot black people in the back - without even a penalty. Europe has always been crowded with very different cultures that have to live together.
Yes there are problems with some nations of Europe that are so Christian they are afraid of moslims entering their country...
It is certainly not optimal, but not worse than the US. Living in Amsterdam I can say we are with a hundred and more nationalities  and we accept all gendertypes.



Which is the driver for Brexit, except there is not a whole lot Christian about Britain.

As I kinda suggested earlier on in this thread, racism is one thing, but xenophobia quite another.

Back in the day, British tv used to show a musical programme called the Black and White Minstrel Show. It consisted of some singers wearing what is today called blackface makeup. They sang sweet, gentle songs that pleased the majority of people watching, and I am pretty sure nobody gave race a thought: it was just a sentimental reference to twenties and thirties music and clubs etc. Viewers were left with a soporific feel-good factor that went well with the Ovaltine.

Race started to become promoted as ooh! and wow! with the advent of another tv show (the name of which I forget) where an old guy plays a low-class white character who is blatantly racist but is usually shown up as being very ignorant. My take on this is simple: race became an issue because some people in the public eye thought it would be a good idea and titillate viewers and raise viewing figures. What catches the public eye on tv ends up being part of the culture, way more widespread than before the promotion on air.

As for xenophobia: almost all of the organized crime that takes place on this island appears to be run by gypsy group's, Romanians and now also Russians. I am sure my watch thief was eastern European. The problem facing Britain re. these kinds of Europeans - or any other, for that matter - is that there seem to be no stiff penalties in place. Any foreign person caught and convicted of crime should face immediate deportation, regardless of circumstances, dependents or any other sob story attached. Problem solved.

There is also no doubt that different ethnic groups tend to take over neighbourhoods, forcing house prices lower simply because people other than the new group don't want to live next door to the new lot. Rightly or wrongly, you can't fight reality and how people feel, though you might and probably do legislate about how, in an ideal world, you might like them to behave.

Fear of Moslems is based as much on fear of religious massacre as anything else, something both real and in the news daily. This does not imply that all Moslems are likey to turn around and shoot you or blow you up, but the fear has been implanted by the acts of those who do and will. Shit sticks, as they say. That more Moslems get killed by Moslems than does any other type of person is small comfort for those non-Muslims who do get killed in trains, at concerts, in clubs, at work. The logic that drives the fear and hatred for them is simple: if they are not here they cannot harm us. That's hard to refute! If matters were taken in hand by the non-violent ones, the radicals shamed and hoofed out, that would be a very powerful statement to the people in whose land they live. You may well be born in a country, but that doesn't mean you share its values. And that regardless of background.

kers

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1745 on: November 27, 2019, 07:01:41 am »

There are approximately 58 black senators and representatives in Congress roughly 10% of the 535 total.  Blacks make up 14% of the total US population.  The last president was black and served and was elected twice.  Where's the racism? ]

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

    African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.

    In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.

    In eleven states, at least 1 in 20 adult black males is in prison.

    In Oklahoma, the state with the highest overall black incarceration rate, 1 in 15 black males ages 18 and older is in prison.

    States exhibit substantial variation in the range of racial disparity, from a black/white ratio of 12.2:1 in New Jersey to 2.4:1 in Hawaii.

    Latinos are imprisoned at a rate that is 1.4 times the rate of whites. Hispanic/white ethnic disparities are particularly high in states such as Massachusetts (4.3:1), Connecticut (3.9:1), Pennsylvania (3.3:1), and New York (3.1:1).


This is not about a hundred ultra right people shouting out loud,  but about a structural problem in the whole USA.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 07:05:11 am by kers »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1746 on: November 27, 2019, 07:08:46 am »

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

    African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.

    In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.

    In eleven states, at least 1 in 20 adult black males is in prison.

    In Oklahoma, the state with the highest overall black incarceration rate, 1 in 15 black males ages 18 and older is in prison.

    States exhibit substantial variation in the range of racial disparity, from a black/white ratio of 12.2:1 in New Jersey to 2.4:1 in Hawaii.

    Latinos are imprisoned at a rate that is 1.4 times the rate of whites. Hispanic/white ethnic disparities are particularly high in states such as Massachusetts (4.3:1), Connecticut (3.9:1), Pennsylvania (3.3:1), and New York (3.1:1).


This is not about a hundred ultra right people shouting out loud,  but about a structural problem in the whole USA.

What do your statistics have to do with racism?

kers

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1747 on: November 27, 2019, 07:12:42 am »

What do your statistics have to do with racism?

And you said  I  was in denial?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1748 on: November 27, 2019, 07:20:06 am »

That's true but not Trump's fault.  I believe going off the gold standard which causes inflation, higher taxes, deficit spending, has hurt.  Loss of jobs overseas has also hurt.  We've gone from the biggest creditor nation to the biggest debtor nation in the world.  Look what's happen to our photo industry due to digital, loss of film,  etc.  I'm sure there are people here who could tell us how they lost their career or have taken huge hits in salaries and gigs.  When I go to my photo club, the other members ask me where I buy film; where I get it developed.  It used to be on the corner.  Now I have to ship it to California or NYC.    America has a lot of competitors today that are driving down wages and our wealth.  I really don't know the answer except we're going to have to get use to having less in the future.    I'm retired.  A senior. A boomer.  So it's going to be our youth who have to figure it out and deal with the consequences.  Their parents have been greedy,  demanding stuff from the government beyond our means to pay for it.  There is no free lunch.  Your kids and mine are going to suffer.

I didn't blame Trump. What has become known as neo-liberalism (Reagan+Thatcher) has helped rich people a lot and has more or less gutted the middle-class. Where I do fault Trump is that he said he was going to fix this long-term structural problem, or more precisely, lots of people inferred that he was going to do that. I am saying that is not even remotely true.

You write "America has a lot of competitors today that are driving down wages and our wealth." I don't understand your point, I thought competition was good. Anyway, it was corporate economic policy to destroy unions and promote globalism. Are you now saying that the US cannot compete against the rest of the world?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1749 on: November 27, 2019, 07:21:39 am »

Of course Robert, you're Canadian so things are better up there.  But you're not immuned.   Canada depends a lot on America.  If we get a cold, you sneeze, as does most of the world.

Where does this non-sequitur come from? It's the equivalent of a school yard taunt, "Oh yeah, my dad is bigger than your dad."

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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1750 on: November 27, 2019, 07:25:01 am »

And you said  I  was in denial?
You made the jump from statistics to racism, not me.  Prove it.  This is just more playing the race card.  Enough already.  You know, most black criminals do criminal acts against other black people in black neighborhoods.  Are you suggesting that blacks who are law abiding who are a majority do not want police protection and criminals to go to jail?  Are you suggesting that most black criminals in jail are innocent, that their trials were staged, that the jurors, black and white, 12 out of 12, all found them guilty while they were actually innocent.  It's your kind of charges of racism that drives the country in dividing us up rather than addressing the causes and looking for solutions for the social problems we have. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1751 on: November 27, 2019, 07:31:09 am »

Where does this non-sequitur come from? It's the equivalent of a school yard taunt, "Oh yeah, my dad is bigger than your dad."


It was a follow-up to my reply #1733.

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1752 on: November 27, 2019, 07:38:13 am »

And you said  I  was in denial?
Oh I just realized I should forgive your error because you're Dutch and live 3000 miles away.  All your read is the liberal America media's viewpoints which spout the race card of things here in America and you believe everything you read.  Why would you see things differently?  You guys still think America is like it was before our Civil war of 1861. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1753 on: November 27, 2019, 07:45:56 am »

And you said  I  was in denial?


I could easily post a few of stats showing how many more men are incarcerated then women.  Would this imply that the police are inherently sexist against men? 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 08:56:52 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1754 on: November 27, 2019, 07:57:01 am »

I didn't blame Trump. What has become known as neo-liberalism (Reagan+Thatcher) has helped rich people a lot and has more or less gutted the middle-class. Where I do fault Trump is that he said he was going to fix this long-term structural problem, or more precisely, lots of people inferred that he was going to do that. I am saying that is not even remotely true.

You write "America has a lot of competitors today that are driving down wages and our wealth." I don't understand your point, I thought competition was good. Anyway, it was corporate economic policy to destroy unions and promote globalism. Are you now saying that the US cannot compete against the rest of the world?
Robert I'm not sure what you mean by neo-liberalism helping the rich and hurting the poor.  How does that work? I do feel and described earlier how lower taxes for business that Trump and COngress implemented helps America and everyone who lives here - rich and poor and the middle class.

Competition within the country is good.   It lowers prices making our money go further which makes us wealthier.  It weeds out marginal producers creates excellence in products.  Wealth doesn;t disappear but increases.  It stays within the country as it's moved around from poor producers and those that do a better job.  However, competition from without moves some wealth out of the country.  It also lowers cost.  After all when you have foreigners working for $3 an hour to produce goods, it makes our dollars go further so we can afford very expensive cameras for example that would cost twice as much if manufactured domestically.  The downside is many workers here get displaced, lose their employment or wind up in marginal low paying service jobs.  This was how Trump won in the swing states when traditional Democrats lost faith with their party and figured that Trump could do better. 


On the other hand, foreign competition means that their countries are open to our exports as well.  So we can sell Boeing planes to countries around the earth, a huge benefit to our wealth and jobs for Americans.  I think the biggest issue is the huge amount of flux with business when it;s done internationally.  It create pockets of disadvantaged that has to addressed in some manner.   No one wants to see fellow Americans suffer. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1755 on: November 27, 2019, 07:57:56 am »

Let me be clear - I'm not in the camp of "all Republicans are racist," or "all Trump supporters are racist."  I think both of those generalizations are unfair and harmful. I do think it's problematic that the deepest red parts of the nation are also some of the states with the highest black populations, but the lowest black Congressional representation.  Why? I'm not sure, but it's not great, we can probably agree.

In a larger sense, I do think that parts of the Trump platform play on racial and ethnic fears, and I do think it attracts some portion of the Republican base, and I wish y'all would speak up about it more.  I referenced Stephen Miller several posts back.  That guy has no business being anywhere near the corridors of power, and it doesn't reflect well on your party that he is.

There is a common misnomer that if an ethnic group gains political representation that economic success will follow.  This is a false premise, first proved by the Irish in the late 1800s and currently by the black community. 

If you look at all ethnic groups that came to this country, with the exception of the Irish, they all gained economic success first and then went into politics.  It is not the case that you need political representation to be successful as a group, which is still evident today by Japanese Americans who have almost no political representation but are extremely successful. 

Furthermore, it actually appears that the direct opposite happens.  The Irish tried to short cut their success by engaging heavily in politics.  However it actually took them a couple of generations more than everyone else to gain economic success. 

(FYI, if you don't believe, many studies of this have been conducted on this.  Thomas Sowell has researched and written on this.) 

Now why this seems to happen, I can not say.  But political representation seems to have little, or maybe even the opposite effect, on the success of an ethnic group when they are poverty stricken then what people think it should. 

Now, insofar as Republicans having almost no black support, it really comes down who is going to be the first one, or two, losers?  Blacks vote Dem 96% of the time, so to gain any support from them, Republicans would need to invest a lot of time and money.  However, even if they do, the first couple people who try will only get marginal support.  It will not be until the 5th or 6th one that it starts to pay off.  On top of that, blacks are a small minority and you don't really need their support to win.  So, if you are one of the first candidates thinking about this, the question is do I spend a lot of my time and money to try to get only a small amount of support or do I put that time and money in a place that will have a greater return? 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 08:13:00 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1756 on: November 27, 2019, 07:59:11 am »

Robert: Oops.  I again forgot you're Canadian.   But the things I mentioned in my post #1754 go for Canada as well. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1757 on: November 27, 2019, 08:06:51 am »

There is a common misnomer that if an ethnic group gains political representation that economic success will follow.  This is a false premise, first proved by the Irish in the late 1800s and currently by the black community. 

If you look at all ethnic groups that came to this country, with the exception of the Irish, they all gained economic success first and then went into politics.  It is not the case that you need political representation to be successful as a group, which is still evident today by Japanese Americans who have almost no political representation but are extremely successful. 

Furthermore, it actually appears that the direct opposite happens.  The Irish tried to short cut their success by engaging heavily in politics.  However it actually took them a couple of generations more than everyone else to gain economic success. 

(FYI, if you don't believe, many studies of this have been conducted on this.  Thomas Sowell has researched and written on this.) 

Now why this seems to happen, I can not say.  But political representation seems to have little, or maybe even the opposite effect, on the success of an ethnic group when they are poverty stricken then what people think it should. 
What happens is you depend on your job from political connections rather than entrepreneurialism.  In NYC, you'd go to Irish run Tammany Hall back when to find work or get a job in government rather than in the street where you had to fight with other business people and private workers to succeed .  Owners eat better than their workers and bring in more wealth to their communities. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1758 on: November 27, 2019, 08:07:54 am »

What happens is you depend on your job from political connections rather than entrepreneurialism.  In NYC, you'd go to Irish run Tammany Hall back when to find work or get a job in government rather than in the street where you had to fight with other business people and private workers to succeed .  Owners eat better than their workers and bring in more wealth to their communities. 

Hunter Biden anyone? :)

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Re: Impeaching Donald Trump
« Reply #1759 on: November 27, 2019, 11:10:26 am »

I understand your concern and there's a certain amount of truth.  Much of it is caused by democrat party traditionally calling everyone racists if they don;t support the "Black agenda", whatever that is.

I didn't hear much protest from Republicans when the 3 female members of Congress, AKA "The Squad", were told to go back to where they came from, a common racial euphemism.
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