Impeaching Donald Trump

[JoeKitchen]

Buttigieg's polls going up, Biden's down

Biden's poll number are remaining consistent.  Buttigieg is gain those who have become disillusioned with Warren. 

Also, lets not forget, Buttigieg has no support amongst the black community and both of his strategies to get support are laughable.  His first was to say, I'm gay and you guys dont like gay people.  So this is the opportunity to redeem yourself by voting for me.  Outside of church, people kind of dont like preachers. 

Now it is, I'm gay and I know what it is like to be persecuted.  Yes, I might not be able to give any direct examples from my life when I was persecuted, but I understand and can relate to what Jim Crow South was like for you since I too experienced it in my own way.  Not a great 2nd strategy to get black votes. 

And my favorite of his, I'm the poorest one on this stage, so that shows how qualified I am to run the biggest economy in the world. 

PS, my brother is a far left wing progressive who works as a consultant for Dems in PA, and he hates Buttigieg, along with nearly everyone else I see comment on his Facebook posts.  Buttigieg winning will greatly disenfranchise the progressive base.  With that said, I would bet anyone winning except Warren and Bernie would as well.   

[Alan Klein]

Name one country where it is not.

If there's a difference, it's the point at which we start killing people.

:-(

America sent hundred of millions of American taxpayer dollars to Ukraine.  We would like to be sure that money is not siphoned off by corrupt government and civil authorities.  We want it to be used for its intended purpose.  So demanding Ukraine clean up their corrupt act is in our interest. 

That's why a quid pro quo is legal.  We put conditions on all foreign aid we give. That's why the Republicans are foolish trying to say there's no quid pro quo.  They should say yes the president wants Ukraine to stop corruption just as Obama demanded it as well.  That's why Trump tried to get them to correct their ways by holding back the money for a couple of months.  Perfectly legal. 

[JoeKitchen]

The fantasy world in which you appear to be living is drifting away from reality at an increasingly high speed Alan.

Cheers,
Bernard

Not really.  Support for impeachment is decreasing amongst independents, especially in the swing districts.  Plus, behind the scenes, reports are showing vulnerable Dems are wavering on an impeachment vote. 

I still give it a greater then 50/50 chance the vote will happen, but it will be a fool's errand.  Like I said, it is the independents you need to convince and most are wavering, not to mention no one is really pay attention to this show.  The Dems in swing districts will, at the end of the day, not get Trump convicted and then realize they have not passed any legislation that means anything, and will have nothing to campaign on next year. 

PS, I will added that the biggest thing right now on impeachment is whether Bolton will testify.  It is pretty clear all of the testimony up until now was hearsay except for Sondland, and Sondland's testimony was a flop for both sides.  Until we find out if Bolton will testify, everything is a moot point. 

[PeterAit]

Ain't this the truth!

[Alan Klein]

Not really.  Support for impeachment is decreasing amongst independents, especially in the swing districts.  Plus, behind the scenes, reports are showing vulnerable Dems are wavering on an impeachment vote. 

I still give it a greater then 50/50 chance the vote will happen, but it will be a fool's errand.  Like I said, it is the independents you need to convince and most are wavering, not to mention no one is really pay attention to this show.  The Dems in swing districts will, at the end of the day, not get Trump convicted and then realize they have not passes any legislation that means anything, and will have nothing to campaign on next year.

They're going to wear blue caps that say LGT - Let's Get Trump.

[Alan Klein]

That's an interesting perspective that needs some filling out.

Or is it a fake news test?

;-)

Regarding why Trump isn't a real Republican is the following:  He's from NYC a liberal town.  He's a social liberal and supports many liberal policies: gay rights for example. Republicans tend to be more conservative on social issues.  Internationally, he opposes getting involved in armed conflict although he does believe in a strong military.  But that's to defend America from attacks from abroad.  Republicans like to flex their muscles more than Demcorats. Trump's an isolationist. Republicans want lower taxes for businesses which he supports as well.  So in that case he's more Republican.  But as a real estate guy who lives on debt, he just caused our deficit to go to a trillion dollars this year.  He doesn;t care because he;s used to debt.  Most republicans don;t like debt and want to cut spending, something Trump hasn't done.  He supports workers, something the Democrats have  forever.  That's why he was able to peel off former democrat voters during the 2016 election.  These were people who voted Democrat for decades before Trump came along.

So although Trump is a Republican and represents the republican party, many of his tendencies are Democrat.  He's usurped the philosophy of the Democrat Party so much so in fact, that they have had to go to representing themselves as Socialist just to be different.  It's been an amazing transformation that if it can continue, will create lot's of books about the subject in the years ahead.  If Trump can hold those former Democrats again and win the 2020 election, those Democrat voters will be lost to the Republican party forever.  The whole landscape in America will change, just like the solid Democrat South went republican after President Johnson passed the civil rights  voting act.


That's why Biden is key.  If he gets nominated, he may be able to pull back those Democrats who have abandoned the party.  If a socialist like Warren gets nominated, they could lose those people forever.  That's why I see a brokered convention if Biden loses the nomination.  That will allow the democrats to pick a middle of the road candidate to face Trump in the 2020 election.

[Robert Roaldi]

It's unrelated to the rest of this thread, but I thought it was interesting that no one has mentioned the school shooting in California the other day, where the shooter built his "ghost gun" out of parts https://news.yahoo.com/teen-california-high-school-shooting-215240916.html. I read elsewhere (can't remember where) that this was the 85th school shooting this year.

[Alan Klein]

Ain't this the truth!

We don't impeach elephants. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Obama, long before Trump became president, demanded that Ukraine clean up their corruption, same as Trump did in the now famous call to the Ukraine president. Wasn't VP Biden who worked for Obama as concerned when he had Ukraine's investigator fired?  Of course, that investigator also happened to be investigating  the corrupt firm Burisma, the company Biden's son was working a no-show job for earning $50,000 a month.   But, hey.  That's just a minor detail. 

Regarding tapping Trump's phone, you;re still repeating the media's knowing refusal to admit that Trump was using slang for saying that he and/or his people and campaign were being surveilled by secret forces (FBI, CIA) of the US government under the Obama administration.  OF course, we learned about the FISA warrant, the perjured evidence provided to the FISA court just yesterday by an Obama FBI agent who was biased against TRump, and all the other surveillance stuff later.  That Trump was right.  Of course the damage to Trump had already been done.  Even you still believe it.  The same lies and bias have been applied to him for three years already and continue to this day.

I have to admire your tenacity in trying to make the impeachment about Biden.

Your belief in the deep state is interesting. Trump has been President for 3 years and for 2 of those he had the benefit of GOP majorities in both houses, but somehow they did not manage to dismantle the deep state that is so ubiquitous yet so well-hidden that no one except you can see it.

[RSL]

The indictments coming up will make it clear, even to you eyes, Robert.

[Alan Klein]

I have to admire your tenacity in trying to make the impeachment about Biden.

Your belief in the deep state is interesting. Trump has been President for 3 years and for 2 of those he had the benefit of GOP majorities in both houses, but somehow they did not manage to dismantle the deep state that is so ubiquitous yet so well-hidden that no one except you can see it.

But, Robert,  the impeachment is about Biden.  Aren't the Democrats saying that Trump's attempt to use his influence to go after Biden is an impeachable offense?  If so, then whether Biden was in fact corrupt or appeared that way is critical for justifying or not justifying Trump's action.  IF Trump reasonably believed the Bidens committed a crime, then his call for an investigation is perfectly legal.  On the other hand, if it could be shown that wasn;t the case, then you could get support from Republicans for impeachment.  As long as Democrats hide the Bidens, it looks like it's a only a Democrat political act to damage Trump.  The people aren't stupid.  They know politics when they see it.  The Democrats have to play fair and allow the Trump side to present evidence to convince the public what actually is going on.  If Schiff won;t allow that in the HOuse process, you can be sure that the Republican who control the Senate will allow it during the trial, if there is one. 


Regarding the deep state, Republican insiders  didn't want Trump either.  You forget how they went after him during the nomination process.  The dossier investigation was original started by Trump's republican enemies.  So the deep state include Republicans and Democrats who have used Washington to feather their own nests for decades. 

[faberryman]

Attorneys for Lev Parnas, Guiliani's associate who has been indicted for illegal campaign contributions to Trump, say he is prepared to testify that Nunes meet with Ukrainians in late 2018 to dig up dirt of the Bidens. If true, it looks like Nunes was part of the plot, which would be keeping in line with his role as Trump's water carrier. There are calls for Nunes to recuse himself.

[Alan Klein]

Attorneys for Lev Parnas, Guiliani's associate who has been indicted for illegal campaign contributions to Trump, say he is prepared to testify that Nunes meet with Ukrainians in late 2018 to dig up dirt of the Bidens. If true, it looks like Nunes was part of the plot, which would be keeping in line with his role as Trump's water carrier. There are call for Nunes to recuse himself.

Nunes only needed a little shovel.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Name one country where it is not.

If there's a difference, it's the point at which we start killing people.

:-(

Case in point, the Trump administration.

Withholding military assistance to Ukraine for personal/political gain. Pulling out of Syria, allowing Turkey to invade and displace and kill Kurds and then redeploying the military to protect the oil. Protecting the Saudis and allowing them to slaughter a.o. civilians in Jemen, and a contributing journalist from the Washington post, refugees at the southern borders, allowing Iran to prepare Nuclear weapons by pulling out of an existing agreement, to name a number of recent ones.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

America sent hundred of millions of American taxpayer dollars to Ukraine.  We would like to be sure that money is not siphoned off by corrupt government and civil authorities.  We want it to be used for its intended purpose.  So demanding Ukraine clean up their corrupt act is in our interest.

Corruption wasn't mentioned in the phone call. Biden was, because Trump feels his reelection is more important than Ukranian lives.

Trump tried to have the Ukraine act in a corrupt way, when their new government was elected to promote anti-corruption.

[Peter McLennan]

The point that keeps getting swept under the Klein carpet is not that Trump bribed Ukraine to help America, but that he bribed Ukraine to help Trump.

[Alan Klein]

Corruption wasn't mentioned in the phone call. Biden was, because Trump feels his reelection is more important than Ukranian lives.

Trump tried to have the Ukraine act in a corrupt way, when their new government was elected to promote anti-corruption.

Trump asked the Ukrainian president for an investigation of possible Ukrainian and/or Russian interference in the 2016 election as well as the Bidens.

"In the July 25 call with Trump, Zelensky thanked Trump for the U.S.'s "great support in the area of defense", an apparent reference to military aid, and expressed an interest in acquiring more missiles. Trump replied, "I would like you to do us a favor though,"[119] suggesting an investigation into CrowdStrike, an American cybersecurity firm that investigated the cyberattacks against the Democratic National Committee in 2015 and 2016. CrowdStrike was one of three firms whose analysis assisted the U.S. intelligence community in determining that Russian intelligence was responsible for the DNC hack.[123] Trump also asked Zelensky to investigate Joe Biden and his son.[167] "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal#Withholding_of_Ukrainian_military_aid

[Alan Klein]

The point that keeps getting swept under the Klein carpet is not that Trump bribed Ukraine to help America, but that he bribed Ukraine to help Trump.

That's the Democrat side of the impeachment hearings.  The Democrats should allow the Bidens to testify to see of Trump had a reason to ask Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.  The accused should be allowed to call his own witnesses to provide testimony in his defense. That's how things normally work in America.  What we have now in the Democrat controlled House is a Star Trial where the prosecution is also the judge andjury. It's acting like the Soviet show trials of the past in its unfair one-sidedness. 

[James Clark]

That's the Democrat side of the impeachment hearings.  The Democrats should allow the Bidens to testify to see of Trump had a reason to ask Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.  The accused should be allowed to call his own witnesses to provide testimony in his defense. That's how things normally work in America.  What we have now in the Democrat controlled House is a Star Trial where the prosecution is also the judge andjury. It's acting like the Soviet show trials of the past in its unfair one-sidedness.

You forgot to include "witch hunt" and "hoax."  You're slipping.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I'll just leave this here: