Seeking a New Paper to Use on Epson 3880

[Photolandscape]

I have used Canson Baryta Photographique 310gsm for the past couple of years. I like it in many respects, but am looking for something new. Here are my ideal criteria:

1) the blue/white brightness of a paper like Epson Premium Luster
2) the soft gloss finish of Canson Baryta Photographique or Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag
3) the archival rag content of the Canson or Red River or other stocks
4) if possible, availability in 17 x 25" sheets
5) readily available, quality profiles from the manufacturer (I find the Canson Baryta Photographique profile to be awful frankly while most others are quite good)

So why not just go with Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag? I like it but I would prefer something with a less yellow hue and a brighter blue/white shade. Does anyone have an ideas for something that would fit the bill? Thanks in advance.

[mearussi]

Sounds like you're wanting a gloss/satin rag paper with a lot of OBAs in it, which is where that blue/white brightness comes from.

There are quite a few papers that fit that criteria from many different manufacturers. Besides Canson you should also look at Hahnemuhle, Innova Art, Premier Art, Moab, Breathing Color, etc.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Papers with high OBA content that you might be looking at cannot be classified as archival regardless of the paper stock.  OBAs degrade with age and some papers will do so at an alarming rate.  If you do go down this route, I would recommend looking at Epson Exhibition Fibre which is a cotton rag paper with the kind of finish you want.  It's chock full of OBAs and will give you that benefit.  Since it is an Epson branded paper, the profile is likely to be very good.

[smthopr]

Papers with high OBA content that you might be looking at cannot be classified as archival regardless of the paper stock.  OBAs degrade with age and some papers will do so at an alarming rate.  If you do go down this route, I would recommend looking at Epson Exhibition Fibre which is a cotton rag paper with the kind of finish you want.  It's chock full of OBAs and will give you that benefit.  Since it is an Epson branded paper, the profile is likely to be very good.

Canson Platine looks surprisingly "bright white" considering that it has no OBAs.  It's certainly not as "yellowish" as many other papers that do not contain OBA, so you might want to try it.

[MfAlab]

You can find a paper white you want by using this amazing database.
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

It is hard to find a paper meets the require, bright white but no OBA. Give a try on Breathing Color River Stone Satin Rag. Breathing Color claims it is no OBA. And the paper got a reflection nearly straight line along with 100% in my test.

[Paul_Roark]

I just ordered another roll of Red River Ultra Pro Satin for my Epson 9800.  It does the job very efficiently.  I recall former Pres. Clinton's famous reminder to himself, "It's the economy, stupid."  In selling through our local gallery (Gallery Los Olivos, in Los Olivos, California), it's obvious that, "It's the image, stupid."  Buyers don't understand or care about the nuances we may agonize over.  All they care about is the image.  So, while I have 100% carbon images on Arches watercolor paper in my office for both aesthetic and technical reasons, I'm the only one who cares that they'll look just the same 500 years from now.  And the deckle edge and museum glass I prize -- forget it.  Buyers don't care.   They react to the image and not technical issues/nuances.  So, I knock out the images on a very good and affordable roll of Red River Ultra Pro Satin, which I then spray with Print Shield, mount on Elmer's heat sensitive foam core, frame with simple black wood I cut and assemble myself, and display without glazing.  The approach delivers the image in a very efficient manner, and the image appears to be all buyers react to or care about. 

Sure, OBAs will fade, but to be honest, I've had an image on the wall for years that even gets some direct sun.  It's on a paper with OBAs.  They're probably gone now.  The image looks the same to me.

And, of course, OBAs get their "brilliance" from converting UV to visible light.  Window glass filters out must UV.  Our good interior lighting has little if any UV.  In those circumstances, the OBAs won't fade, but they also have no impact.

I definitely "get" the reasons to not like OBAs, but in actual practice, in both selling and long term viewing, i find them rather irrelevant.  So, I use my efficient roll of Red River Ultra Pro Satin and ignore the finer technical points.   It's the image that matters.

FWIW,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

 

[MHMG]

I definitely "get" the reasons to not like OBAs, but in actual practice, in both selling and long term viewing, i find them rather irrelevant.  So, I use my efficient roll of Red River Ultra Pro Satin and ignore the finer technical points.   It's the image that matters.

FWIW,

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, Really? Media doesn't matter as long as the image looks good?  I'm shocked hearing this learned opinion coming from you!

Good to know I've been totally wasting my time on print permanence research all these years

All the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[texshooter]

Breathing Color Riverstone Satin Rag is a definite contender. It is even double sided. Well, sorta.  It is officially single sided, but both sides are coated and will give you identical image quality, but only the bottom side will show a gloss differential streak in the middle. I'm told this defect (if you can call it that since double-sided baryta platine papers are unheard of), is a necessary byproduct of the manufacturing process in order to make the paper lie flat. One or two coats of Priemier Art Print Shield Protective spray  and that gloss differential is gone. And Breathing Color use to offer Vibrance Rag (the predecessor to Riverstone Rag) in 17x25" cut. So, maybe they now offer Riverstone in 17x25".

I've narrowed my favorite gloss platines based on similar criteria as yours (of course you'll have to compromise some) to the following

Breathing Color Riverstone Satine Rag
Epson Exhibition Fiber
Hahnemuhle  Fine Art Baryta (not to be confused with Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryra which is smoother and warmer)

[deanwork]

As Mark well knows,

Unglazed prints on  cotton rag, especially with dye brighteners, can not only show the brighteners disappear they can often stain badly. It all depends on the toxins in the environment.

It’s quite possible that rc prints hold up better with no plexi protection. I’ve never had much luck spraying rc prints though, especially bigger ones. Maybe I’m not waiting long enough for them to out gas properly.

John

Paul, Really? Media doesn't matter as long as the image looks good?  I'm shocked hearing this learned opinion coming from you!

Good to know I've been totally wasting my time on print permanence research all these years

All the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[dgberg]

From someone who sells this stuff for a living. Our #1 requested paper is Hahnemuhle FAB 320gsm.
Still running a 3880 today and was probably the best small printer made.
For ease of sheet loading it beats our Epson 9900, P800 and HP z3200 hands down.
For artist reproductions Canson Print Making Rag and Canson Edition Etching Rag are the most requested.
I personally consider the mount presentation more important than the paper.
But then we are in the alternative media printing business of metal, glass and canvas.
The issues with my upcoming list is many of the print/mount combinations are not doable by the home enthusiast with just a printer.

If you have interest in what is selling in the Northeastern US marketplace here is the list.
Metal has taken over canvas by about 2 to 1 with paper print sales being somewhere in the middle.
1 Metal prints - Dye sub
2 Metal prints framed - Dye Sub
3 Canvas wet mounted to gator board
4 Canvas wet mounted to gator board framed
5 Canvas gallery wrap
6 Fine art prints
7Canvas gallery wrap in floater frame
8 Canvas prints shipped in a tube
9 Fine art prints topcoated with solvent uv and framed
10 Dye sublimated Colorlyte Glass
11 Face mounted acrylic
12 Dye sublimated misc products, slate, mdf coated boards and mugs
13 PhotoTex fabric
14 Metal prints float mounted on frosted acrylic or brushed aluminum dibond
15 Fine art prints laminated with vinyl laminate mounted to gator board

[mearussi]

From someone who sells this stuff for a living. Our #1 requested paper is Hahnemuhle FAB 320gsm.
Still running a 3880 today and was probably the best small printer made.
For ease of sheet loading it beats our Epson 9900, P800 and HP z3200 hands down.
For artist reproductions Canson Print Making Rag and Canon Edition Etching Rag are the most requested.
I personally consider the mount presentation more important than the paper.
But then we are in the alternative media printing business of metal, glass and canvas.
The issues with my upcoming list is many of the print/mount combinations are not doable by the home enthusiast with just a printer.

If you have interest in what is selling in the Northeastern US marketplace here is the list.
Metal has taken over canvas by about 2 to 1 with paper print sales being somewhere in the middle.
1 Metal prints
2 Metal prints framed
3 Canvas wet mounted to gator board
4 Canvas wet mounted to gator board framed
5 Canvas gallery wrap
6 Fine art prints
7Canvas gallery wrap in floater frame
8 Canvas prints shipped in a tube
9 Fine art prints topcoated with solvent uv and framed
10 Dye sublimated Colorlyte Glass
11 Face mounted acrylic
12 Dye sublimated misc products, slate, mdf coated boards and mugs
13 PhotoTex fabric
14 Metal prints float mounted on frosted acrylic or brushed aluminum dibond
15 Fine art prints laminated with vinyl laminate mounted to gator board

Interesting list, thank for posting. Is that just from your local area, or do you sell nation wide?

[dgberg]

95% local area (50 mile radius, mostly pickup) the rest across the US.
Shipping has always been the big killer for small businesses.

[MfAlab]

From someone who sells this stuff for a living. Our #1 requested paper is Hahnemuhle FAB 320gsm.
Still running a 3880 today and was probably the best small printer made.
For ease of sheet loading it beats our Epson 9900, P800 and HP z3200 hands down.
For artist reproductions Canson Print Making Rag and Canson Edition Etching Rag are the most requested.

Thanks for your sharing. Another info I can provide, Canson said (several years ago) Rag Photographique is the best selling rag paper world wide in their Canson Infinity line.

My favorite is old BFK Rives. PrintMaKing Rag replaced it, but paper texture and feel is not that beautiful as old Arches cylinder mold made paper. It might be made by St Cuthberts now, they are both acquired by F.I.L.A. in 2016. St Cuthberts also made Moab's Somerset.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Thanks for your sharing. Another info I can provide, Canson said (several years ago) Rag Photographique is the best selling rag paper world wide in their Canson Infinity line.

I wonder what this means given that some paper sold under various brands in the US may not be widely available in markets outside the US.  I've printed on the Canson paper as well as Museo Portfolio Rag and Moab Entrada.  All are good Rag papers but I don't know whether the Museo or Moab papers can be easily sourced elsewhere.

[MfAlab]

I wonder what this means given that some paper sold under various brands in the US may not be widely available in markets outside the US.  I've printed on the Canson paper as well as Museo Portfolio Rag and Moab Entrada.  All are good Rag papers but I don't know whether the Museo or Moab papers can be easily sourced elsewhere.

Museo and Moab didn't exhibit in photokina and CP+, most important show in Europe and Asia. The papers are hard to find internationally. US is the biggest market in the world, they can run their business without going international.

I worked in the distributor of Museo in Taiwan more than 10 years ago. Since Crane sold Museo to InteliCoat, the brand was stepping down from the market.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Museo and Moab didn't exhibit in photokina and CP+, most important show in Europe and Asia. The papers are hard to find internationally. US is the biggest market in the world, they can run their business without going international.

I worked in the distributor of Museo in Taiwan more than 10 years ago. Since Crane sold Museo to InteliCoat, the brand was stepping down from the market.

A quick look at pricing for 17x22 sheets show Canson Rag Photographique the most expensive of the three in the US.  Museo Portfolio Rag is the least expensive.  Museo has been sold several times over since Crane quit and that's never a good sign.  It's always difficult to figure our whether companies are doing their own manufacturing or outsourcing and re-branding.  When you go to Ernst Dinkla's site to look at spectral graphs many papers look identical.

[MfAlab]

A quick look at pricing for 17x22 sheets show Canson Rag Photographique the most expensive of the three in the US.  Museo Portfolio Rag is the least expensive.  Museo has been sold several times over since Crane quit and that's never a good sign.  It's always difficult to figure our whether companies are doing their own manufacturing or outsourcing and re-branding.  When you go to Ernst Dinkla's site to look at spectral graphs many papers look identical.

That's a bad sign indeed. Canson also be acquired by Hamelin, then sold to F.I.L.A. They lost the papers from Arches mill. It's the same story. Inkjet papers need good quality base paper, as important as good ink receive coating. Museo Silver Rag changed the paper and coating several times. It was not in the competition of cotton rag gloss papers anymore. sad..

[deanwork]

Look Felix Schoeller has been creating these great coatings for Canson and many others for a long time. Ask Ernst, our European scholar of all media

https://www.felix-schoeller.com/en_en/business-unit/photographic-digital-printing-papers.html

Canson divorced from Arches, thus cash flow issues and supply interruptions. Got in bed with Epson with a agreement that allowed both of them to produce almost identical products with almost identical names.

Now I buy my Canson rolls from Epson when their prices are better, and Canson when their prices are better. I use the same profiles most of the time.... They are both as good as it gets in my experience.

What is good about Canson ( ( Epson Legacy :-) ) - better sharpness than Hahnemuhle, pigment whiteners, very durable coatings that don’t flake and are scratch resistant, great dmax and as good of color gamut as anyone, Schoeller coatings are very consistent in quality from batch to batch year to year. Never had a questionable roll. Platine being 100% cotton doesn’t curl like a mother, causing head strikes that KILL your print heads.

Moab and Hahnemuhle make great papers and also have good quality control but I find their coatings not as durable overall and the brighter papers have dye brighteners. Hahnemühle’s new metallic paper is very unique and cool and their Museum Etching is one fine paper.

John

That's a bad sign indeed. Canson also be acquired by Hamelin, then sold to F.I.L.A. They lost the papers from Arches mill. It's the same story. Inkjet papers need good quality base paper, as important as good ink receive coating. Museo Silver Rag changed the paper and coating several times. It was not in the competition of cotton rag gloss papers anymore. sad..

[MfAlab]

Look Felix Schoeller has been creating these great coatings for Canson and many others for a long time. Ask Ernst, our European scholar of all media

https://www.felix-schoeller.com/en_en/business-unit/photographic-digital-printing-papers.html

Canson divorced from Arches, thus cash flow issues and supply interruptions. Got in bed with Epson with a agreement that allowed both of them to produce almost identical products with almost identical names.

Now I buy my Canson rolls from Epson when their prices are better, and Canson when their prices are better. I use the same profiles most of the time.... They are both as good as it gets in my experience.

What is good about Canson ( ( Epson Legacy :-) ) - better sharpness than Hahnemuhle, pigment whiteners, very durable coatings that don’t flake and are scratch resistant, great dmax and as good of color gamut as anyone, Schoeller coatings are very consistent in quality from batch to batch year to year. Never had a questionable roll. Platine being 100% cotton doesn’t curl like a mother, causing head strikes that KILL your print heads.

Moab and Hahnemuhle make great papers and also have good quality control but I find their coatings not as durable overall and the brighter papers have dye brighteners. Hahnemühle’s new metallic paper is very unique and cool and their Museum Etching is one fine paper.

John

Yes, so many papers are coated by Felix Schoeller. And don't forget SiHL. But good raw paper is also a key feature. I miss the old BFK, Arches Velin and Arcehs Aquarelle.

Epson Legacy papers are only available in the US. IMHO, Canson's Rag Photographique is better than Hahnemuhle's Photo Rag. But I like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta more than Canson Platine Fibre Rag by just a little bit. They all have good durability, Innova's paper has a much easier scratch surface.

[deanwork]

You are right Photo Rag Baryta is a great semi gloss durable  natural white paper as is Hahnemuhle Photorag Pearl that I like a little more due to the texture. They had problems with silver specs in the Baryta for years but apparently that  was resolved .

I like the Platine with the gloss enhancer of the Z3200 and three very light coats of Premiere Art uv spray. Great in a portfolio.

Yes, so many papers are coated by Felix Schoeller. And don't forget SiHL. But good raw paper is also a key feature. I miss the old BFK, Arches Velin and Arcehs Aquarelle.

Epson Legacy papers are only available in the US. IMHO, Canson's Rag Photographique is better than Hahnemuhle's Photo Rag. But I like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta more than Canson Platine Fibre Rag by just a little bit. They all have good durability, Innova's paper has a much easier scratch surface.