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Author Topic: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science  (Read 97292 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #960 on: September 24, 2019, 10:33:38 am »

In the US, the best hospitals and universities are private.  Always have been.  Mayo Clinic,  Johns Hopkins,  Massachusetts General Hospitals.   Harvard,  Yale,  Princeton Universities.

No doubt, but that wasn't the point in question.

(As an aside, I was told that the best trauma unit in Houston was the public hospital, because they had so much more experience)
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #961 on: September 24, 2019, 11:49:09 am »

Exactly - so that all companies fairly and equally pay for the environmental damage that they do.

You didn't answer my question.

Regarding damage to the environment,  how much do you think you owe from driving and heating your house with fossil fuels?

jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #962 on: September 24, 2019, 02:09:14 pm »

You didn't answer my question.

Regarding damage to the environment,  how much do you think you owe from driving and heating your house with fossil fuels?

I have no idea, Alan.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #963 on: September 24, 2019, 04:39:39 pm »

German car corporation officers charged with stock manipulation not pollution.  Reminds me of how gangster Al Capone went to jail  for not paying his taxes rather than for murder.

"VW executives indicted in Germany in connection with emissions scandal"

https://thehill.com/regulation/energy-environment/462727-vw-executives-indicted-in-germany-in-connection-with-emissions

EricV

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #964 on: September 25, 2019, 03:13:47 am »

Regarding damage to the environment,  how much do you think you owe from driving and heating your house with fossil fuels?
  The government could figure that out and charge me accordingly.  Perhaps through a gasoline tax.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #965 on: September 25, 2019, 04:16:11 am »

  The government could figure that out and charge me accordingly.  Perhaps through a gasoline tax.

Yes, and it is fairer to those who contribute less to pollution, because with less consumption comes less tax to be paid. It will also encourage switching to cleaner enerysource alternatives. It's a win win.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #966 on: September 25, 2019, 08:51:19 am »

  The government could figure that out and charge me accordingly.  Perhaps through a gasoline tax.
Thanks for your honesty that you personally contribute to pollution.   Others here feel only corporations are responsible for fossil fuel use.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #967 on: September 25, 2019, 09:22:55 am »

Thanks for your honesty that you personally contribute to pollution.   Others here feel only corporations are responsible for fossil fuel use.

Nonsense, nobody says so. It's just that the largest contributors are heavy industry and transportation, so most improvement can be achieved there. Energy production, metal production, agriculture, airtravel, and road-transportation is where the biggest issues are. Much of that is consumer-driven.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #968 on: September 25, 2019, 10:01:53 am »

Nonsense, nobody says so. It's just that the largest contributors are heavy industry and transportation, so most improvement can be achieved there. Energy production, metal production, agriculture, airtravel, and road-transportation is where the biggest issues are. Much of that is consumer-driven.
One poster blamed corporations.  When I asked he did not seem to recognize his own contribution to fossil fuel pollution.   We use gasoline when we drive.   We need fuel to heat our homes and make hor water.   We're fly.  We use industrial made products.   It's important we don't just point fingers at others. Here's breakout by user.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/28/industries-sectors-carbon-emissions

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #969 on: September 25, 2019, 10:04:07 am »

... Energy production, metal production, agriculture, airtravel, and road-transportation is where the biggest issues are. Much of that is consumer-driven.

Easily solvable if we would simply cease to consume and exist. Not having children would achieve that in just one generation.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #970 on: September 25, 2019, 02:03:10 pm »

Easily solvable if we would simply cease to consume and exist. Not having children would achieve that in just one generation.

Another reasonable response that moves the conversation along and helps everyone's understanding.

Always go to extremes, it helps your case. No seriously, keep doing it. :)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #971 on: September 25, 2019, 02:33:14 pm »

Another reasonable response that moves the conversation along and helps everyone's understanding.

Always go to extremes, it helps your case. No seriously, keep doing it. :)

While I agree, ... actually, Slobodan is saying, in a convoluted way, that it is not easily solvable.

But that's nothing new. If it were easy, most of us might have chosen that path already. Although I do not underestimate human stupidity often choosing for the short term benefits (and playing deaf dumb and blind for the longer term, more expensive, and more difficult compromise).
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #972 on: September 25, 2019, 04:21:00 pm »

While I agree, ... actually, Slobodan is saying, in a convoluted way, that it is not easily solvable.

But that's nothing new. If it were easy, most of us might have chosen that path already. Although I do not underestimate human stupidity often choosing for the short term benefits (and playing deaf dumb and blind for the longer term, more expensive, and more difficult compromise).

15 billion just for America as suggested by one of our democrat candidates fir president is a huge expenditure.   It would eat up most other expenditures for other extremely important other things that most ve done to help people today with cancer research,  housing for the homeless etc.  Calling people stupid who are concerned about these things is inappropriate.  Maybe you're being the short sighted person.

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #973 on: September 25, 2019, 04:21:34 pm »

Sorry 15 trillion not billion.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #974 on: September 25, 2019, 05:06:41 pm »

Sorry 15 trillion not billion.

It is stupid to not spend, say for argument's sake, 15 trillion instead of a multiple of that amount. Now it will cost a lot, later it will become unbearable.

And that's just the cost in monetary units, we're not even considering human suffering and loss of health or even life.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #975 on: September 25, 2019, 05:41:31 pm »

It is stupid to not spend, say for argument's sake, 15 trillion instead of a multiple of that amount. Now it will cost a lot, later it will become unbearable....

It is extremely stupid to spend one single cent now for something that might or might not happen 100 years from now, just to placate some climato-maniacs’ fantasies. In that time frame, technology and market forces will find a cheaper solution anyway.

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #976 on: September 25, 2019, 06:40:15 pm »

It is stupid to not spend, say for argument's sake, 15 trillion instead of a multiple of that amount. Now it will cost a lot, later it will become unbearable.

And that's just the cost in monetary units, we're not even considering human suffering and loss of health or even life.
The fact is currently people are dying of cancer, are sleeping in the street, and are suffering in many ways.  Today.  Bankrupting the country and world today and for the future and denying these people help for some supposed issues in the future is more cruel.  Apocalypses have always been predicted,  falsely.   In any case, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.  We have to take care of current problems first.  SLobodan is right.  Things tend to take care of themselves. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #977 on: September 25, 2019, 06:52:26 pm »

It is extremely stupid to spend one single cent now for something that might or might not happen 100 years from now, just to placate some climato-maniacs’ fantasies. In that time frame, technology and market forces will find a cheaper solution anyway.

A 100 years from now??????

It's already happening and it's accelerating and as soon as tipping points are reached, there's no turning back. It is irresponsible and foolish to hope for currently non-existent and unproven technological solutions. It is like playing Russian roulette, as soon as possible stop 'playing' is of existential importance and the only sensible thing to do.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #978 on: September 25, 2019, 10:41:14 pm »

I get a big kick out of arguments based on not doing things because of how expensive things are. How expensive is it going to be to not do them? It was expensive building the interstate system system, it was expensive doing aeronautics research, it's expensive doing medical research. Magically, the money always seems to appear. Why is that? What do you think, did we get an adequate ROI on all those things? Don't you like safe airplanes and reliable air traffic control systems? How about pure research into solid state physics that no one understood, was that money well spent?

Since when has the economy been a zero-sum game? Milton Friedman is spinning in his grave listening to this drivel.

It would be interesting to come up with an estimate of how much money could be raised by a small (say 0.1%) tax on all financial market transactions (you could justify it on the basis of getting the money back that was poured into the financial sector after 2008) or on all online gambling transactions. What? Tax gambling? I must be a loonie leftie. You don't want to tax gambling, it might hurt job creation in that industry. Because that's what the world really needs, more gamers and debt collectors, now that's the kind of economic growth you really want. That's really productive and improves people's lives. Some people, anyway.

Remember when automobile pollution controls was going to destroy the automobile industry? Whatever happened to that armageddon, I wonder. Turns out it was the best thing that ever happened to everyone, consumers and manufacturers alike.

I thought entrepreneurs and capitalists were supposed to be forward thinking and creative. Who knows, maybe the real ones are.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #979 on: September 26, 2019, 12:30:44 am »

I get a big kick out of arguments based on not doing things because of how expensive things are. How expensive is it going to be to not do them? It was expensive building the interstate system system, it was expensive doing aeronautics research, it's expensive doing medical research. Magically, the money always seems to appear. Why is that? What do you think, did we get an adequate ROI on all those things? Don't you like safe airplanes and reliable air traffic control systems? How about pure research into solid state physics that no one understood, was that money well spent?

Since when has the economy been a zero-sum game? Milton Friedman is spinning in his grave listening to this drivel.

It would be interesting to come up with an estimate of how much money could be raised by a small (say 0.1%) tax on all financial market transactions (you could justify it on the basis of getting the money back that was poured into the financial sector after 2008) or on all online gambling transactions. What? Tax gambling? I must be a loonie leftie. You don't want to tax gambling, it might hurt job creation in that industry. Because that's what the world really needs, more gamers and debt collectors, now that's the kind of economic growth you really want. That's really productive and improves people's lives. Some people, anyway.

Remember when automobile pollution controls was going to destroy the automobile industry? Whatever happened to that armageddon, I wonder. Turns out it was the best thing that ever happened to everyone, consumers and manufacturers alike.

I thought entrepreneurs and capitalists were supposed to be forward thinking and creative. Who knows, maybe the real ones are.
Robert, Countries and companies are spending money making changes with green energy just like they did with car pollution pushed by the USA. (Well, except the cheating Germans with diesel).  I got involved personally in my own business subsequently after the 1973 oil crisis with energy conservation systems.  Even then, buyers wanted to see sufficient return on investment before they bought the systems.  So energy management has been under way for almost 50 years.  And we've been working on auto changes for as long or longer as well.  These things cannot be done overnight.  But that cost with autos is peanuts compared to what is required to get us off fossil fuels in the short time people like yourself are saying is required.  The time isn't there.  The money isn't there.  The know how isn't there.     It would destroy economies, starve people, freeze people, and put better lives for people around the world beyond our ability to meet.  We'd go backwards in modernity hurting everything.  You're missing how much cheap energy has driven modern successful lives and made living better for everyone.  You can;t pull the plug even if we could pay for it which we can;t.  It's nice to get everyone excited as we've seen with recent marches.  But when the parents of those kids realize how much they will have to pay in taxes and higher living costs for all these things (look at German electric costs), the political forces will shut it down.  The kids will be told to go home and study their homework for school so they can get a job when they grow up.
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