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Author Topic: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science  (Read 96692 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #740 on: September 04, 2019, 04:07:28 pm »



I don;t get Facebook.  No wonder I'm not with it. 

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #741 on: September 04, 2019, 04:29:19 pm »

While this has to do with Dorian, I wanted to post it here.  It shows how photographers and media distort things to satisfy their political agenda.  Reminds me of the photo of the polar bear on the ice with the caption how the bear is going to die from starvation. 
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/abaco-bahamas-hurricane-dorian/
You knew it had to come.  From the NY Times, of course.

"Hurricane Dorian Makes Bahamians the Latest Climate-Crisis Victims"
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/opinion/hurricane-dorian-bahamas.html

LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #742 on: September 04, 2019, 05:25:19 pm »

The walls on that damaged house are rather thin. If most houses there were built that way, that would explain the large number of destroyed homes.
Interestingly, if you look at aerial pictures of the hit areas, you can see some houses, which appear undamaged. Some of them even two stories tall. Of course, the flood engulfed everything.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #743 on: September 05, 2019, 01:58:16 am »

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/09/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=sw&utm_campaign=sw

THE ENVIRONMENTAL FIASCO OF WIND ENERGY

Quote
If a wind farm includes 100 turbines, that means that 500 million pounds of concrete (which off-gases CO2, by the way) have been poured into what previously was likely farm land. When the turbines are defunct after a mere 20 years, what will be done with hundreds of millions of pounds of concrete?

BernardLanguillier

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #744 on: September 05, 2019, 02:00:35 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Wu8YpsBY4

This hand penciled black line is a great illustration of how climate scepticism manifests itself.

It is not climate scepticism per se, but illustrate a great example of a desperate attempt to falsify scientific forecast to support one's own political beliefs.

In this case we all understand that this political belief is just Trump unwilling to acknowledge he made a mistake of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 03:08:09 am by BernardLanguillier »
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LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #745 on: September 05, 2019, 03:20:35 am »

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/09/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=sw&utm_campaign=sw

THE ENVIRONMENTAL FIASCO OF WIND ENERGY
If a wind farm includes 100 turbines, that means that 500 million pounds of concrete (which off-gases CO2, by the way) have been poured into what previously was likely farm land. When the turbines are defunct after a mere 20 years, what will be done with hundreds of millions of pounds of concrete?

It's good to know how much material goes into a turbine installation. Hopefully, they can make them last more than 20 years to get more mileage out of them. And after they finished their useful life, maybe a good portion of the concrete base can be reused for the next generation of the turbines.

OTOH, a typical nuclear station is built for a 40 years life-span, although they can last twice as long. A lot of concrete, steel and other materials go also into the nuclear plant structures, not counting all ongoing expenses and maintenance. 
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LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #746 on: September 05, 2019, 03:31:18 am »

Massive hydroelectric dams are the future of power in Switzerland. Many huge structures already supply most of the nation's electricity.

Amazing alpine imagery
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-swiss-dams/?srnd=markets-vp
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #747 on: September 05, 2019, 04:00:26 am »

It's good to know how much material goes into a turbine installation. Hopefully, they can make them last more than 20 years to get more mileage out of them. And after they finished their useful life, maybe a good portion of the concrete base can be reused for the next generation of the turbines.

OTOH, a typical nuclear station is built for a 40 years life-span, although they can last twice as long. A lot of concrete, steel and other materials go also into the nuclear plant structures, not counting all ongoing expenses and maintenance.

Yes, not much new in Slobodan's link to, oh shudder, a blog. It indeed doesn't specify what's needed to build and maintain traditional or alternative power generators.

Also not mentioned is that other types of traditional power generation plants additionally require a constant stream of fuel to keep things running, and they produce unwelcome emissions. The harvesting of fossil fuel also requires an infrastructure that has to be built, and the transport itself causes environmental issues.
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kers

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #748 on: September 05, 2019, 05:13:03 am »

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/09/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=sw&utm_campaign=sw
THE ENVIRONMENTAL FIASCO OF WIND ENERGY

This article is really odd.

the closing line:
 "Wind energy, like solar energy, is an environmental disaster–just one more reason why it should not be subsidized or mandated by government."

Bang!   
conclusion:  Let's stop with solar energy and wind energy all together for it is a environmental disaster and needs to be subsidized.
The main envirommental problem in this article is not being able to recycle the blades of the turbines, made of fiberglass...
Because of that they bury them in the soil after use...

This ( solvable) problem is mini-micro-nano-peanuts compared to the environmental damage caused by burning oil and the production facilities it needs.
ask Burtynsky
https://www.edwardburtynsky.com/projects/photographs/oil

-
At the moment the Netherlands builts some large wind turbines fields that require no subsidy.
It will take care of 10 million households.
The Dutch article is about the first transformatoroplatform at sea to distribute the power.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2300330-eerste-stekkerdoos-op-noordzee-klaar-voor-gebruik.html

-
If the USA will stick in the oil-age, it will have a problem caching up with countries already using clean energy on a large scale, like China...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 05:20:15 am by kers »
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LesPalenik

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #749 on: September 05, 2019, 05:18:51 am »

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/09/the-environmental-fiasco-of-wind-energy.php?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=sw&utm_campaign=sw

THE ENVIRONMENTAL FIASCO OF WIND ENERGY

In the eighties, I designed specialized software used by maintenance departments of three large nuclear stations in Ontario and thus became aware of the ongoing maintenance costs for NPPs. The capital and labour budget for these departments was relatively high at that time and it could be even higher now.

New power plants use more concrete than the earlier generations. They are built to withstand aircraft crashes, earthquakes, harsh weather, and material fatigue. In addition to the original construction, the continued operation and ageing require frequent and stringent structure monitoring and periodic repairs.

Unlike mechanical components or electrical equipment that can be replaced, the concrete reactor structures cannot be replaced. When eventually decommisioned, not too much of the original construction can be salvaged. That's one reason why we have now so many aging nuclear power plants. Design life of most existing 2nd generation NPPs was typically 30 to 40 years. However, economic benefits for utilities resulting from extending plant service life (with 60 or more years being a quoted target), means that existing concrete structures often will have to meet their functional and performance requirements for a time period significantly greater than considered during their initial design. Although the U.S. limits initial commercial power reactor licenses to a 40-year period, regulations allow these licenses to be renewed for an additional period of 20 years. Presently 437 NPP units are in operation in 37 countries, many of them nearing the end of their life. It will be much harder and more expensive to get rid of those structures than of the wind turbines.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #750 on: September 05, 2019, 09:31:04 am »

You guys are just silly. It is not about how many tons of concrete, steel, and plastics is needed for wind vs. traditional or nuclear, but the ratio of it per unit of electricity delivered.

RSL

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #751 on: September 05, 2019, 09:45:12 am »

You just don't understand, Slobodan. Windmills and solar panels make them feel good about themselves. That's far more important than efficiency in electrical production.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #752 on: September 05, 2019, 09:46:22 am »

... attempt to falsify scientific forecast...

Why would anyone need to bother!? The “scientific” forecasts falsify themselves.

Just ask South Floridians who are rolling on the (sunny) streets laughing at it. I just spent several days of my life preparing for the “catastrophe,” hours on the phone with airlines, hundreds of dollars, which would have turned into thousands have I not decided to cancel evacuation tickets, only to spend days bored, waiting for Godot.

The “scientific” forecast started with the whole freaking Florida (and more) painted catastrophe red, only to end up not even touching Florida.

JoeKitchen

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #753 on: September 05, 2019, 10:07:01 am »

In the eighties, I designed specialized software used by maintenance departments of three large nuclear stations in Ontario and thus became aware of the ongoing maintenance costs for NPPs. The capital and labour budget for these departments was relatively high at that time and it could be even higher now.

New power plants use more concrete than the earlier generations. They are built to withstand aircraft crashes, earthquakes, harsh weather, and material fatigue. In addition to the original construction, the continued operation and ageing require frequent and stringent structure monitoring and periodic repairs.

Unlike mechanical components or electrical equipment that can be replaced, the concrete reactor structures cannot be replaced. When eventually decommisioned, not too much of the original construction can be salvaged. That's one reason why we have now so many aging nuclear power plants. Design life of most existing 2nd generation NPPs was typically 30 to 40 years. However, economic benefits for utilities resulting from extending plant service life (with 60 or more years being a quoted target), means that existing concrete structures often will have to meet their functional and performance requirements for a time period significantly greater than considered during their initial design. Although the U.S. limits initial commercial power reactor licenses to a 40-year period, regulations allow these licenses to be renewed for an additional period of 20 years. Presently 437 NPP units are in operation in 37 countries, many of them nearing the end of their life. It will be much harder and more expensive to get rid of those structures than of the wind turbines.

OMG, are you telling me things degrade and rot over time, things like concrete and metal?  Amazing. 

I think you will be very depressed to hear than that wind & solar farms use significantly more concrete and metal just due to how incredibly large they need to be.  So it seems like this will be more of a problem with wind & solar then nuclear. 

By the way, I don't see how it will be much more difficult to tear down a very contained concrete structure in one location vs removing several 100, or even 1000, concrete foundations built for wind turbines over several 1000s of acres.  Once the nuclear material is removed, you can use a controlled detonation to destroy the structure and then remove the rubble fairly easily.  Also, damage to the environment by heavy machinery used in the removal will be located to one place that will be relatively near or in a developed area already. 

With a wind farm, you need to remove the foundations one at a time, which will take much longer.  Damage to the ground and environment from heavy machinery during the removal will be much more wide spread as well.  Also, due to the size of these farms, they need to be in rural areas to be economical, which means this damage will be on undeveloped lands.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 11:39:08 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #754 on: September 05, 2019, 10:07:08 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Wu8YpsBY4

This hand penciled black line is a great illustration of how climate scepticism manifests itself.

It is not climate scepticism per se, but illustrate a great example of a desperate attempt to falsify scientific forecast to support one's own political beliefs.

In this case we all understand that this political belief is just Trump unwilling to acknowledge he made a mistake of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

Trump didn't make a mistake.  You've been reading the fake news.  He ran and won the presidency on pulling out of Paris and opening up America to more fossil fuel production.  The first was pushed because he said that there are no penalties in the Paris Accord.  It's all voluntary and most countries cheat.  On top of that China doesn;t have to do anything until 2030 putting us at a disadvantage economically (you too.).  Also, India doesn;t have to do anything and will triple their CO2 emissions by 2030. 

Meanwhile, fracking and other oil and fossil fuel production that was opposed by Obama and pushed by Trump has now made America the largest producer of oil in the world beating out Saudi Arabia.


Trump has said he would consider getting back into Paris if rules especially penalties were tightened up and that all countries especially China and India would have to comply as well. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #755 on: September 05, 2019, 10:10:38 am »

You guys are just silly. It is not about how many tons of concrete, steel, and plastics is needed for wind vs. traditional or nuclear, but the ratio of it per unit of electricity delivered.

Yes, very true.  And you use a lot more, by leaps and bounds, concrete, metal and plastic for a wind farm that produces less energy, intermittently and only at best 30% of the time, then for a nuclear plant that can produce power on demand over 80% of the time. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 10:16:18 am by JoeKitchen »
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jeremyrh

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #756 on: September 05, 2019, 10:16:38 am »

Why would anyone need to bother!? The “scientific” forecasts falsify themselves.

Just ask South Floridians who are rolling on the (sunny) streets laughing at it. I just spent several days of my life preparing for the “catastrophe,” hours on the phone with airlines, hundreds of dollars, which would have turned into thousands have I not decided to cancel evacuation tickets, only to spend days bored, waiting for Godot.

The “scientific” forecast started with the whole freaking Florida (and more) painted catastrophe red, only to end up not even touching Florida.

Just think yourself lucky you don't live in Alabama. I mean - from a cyclone perspective.
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Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #757 on: September 05, 2019, 10:17:07 am »

OMG, are you telling me things degrade and rot over time, things like concrete and metal?  Amazing. 

I think you will be very depressed to hear than that wind & solar farms use significantly more concrete and metal just due to how incredibly large they need to be.  So it seems like this will be more of a problem with wind & solar then nuclear. 

By the way, I don't see how it will be much more difficult to tear down a very contained concrete structure in one location vs removing several 100, or even 1000, concrete foundations built for wind turbines over several 1000s of acres.  Once the nuclear material is removed, you can use a controlled detonation to destroy the structure and then remove the rubble fairly easily.  Also, damage to the environment by heavy machinery used in the removal will be located to one place that will be relatively near a developed area already. 

With a wind farm, you need to removed the foundations one at a time, which will take much longer.  Damage to the ground and environment from heavy machinery during the removal will be much more wide spread as well.  Also, due to the size of these farms, they need to be in rural areas to be economical, which means this damage will be on undeveloped lands.
The biggest problem with wind and solar is that you have to back them up with fossil fuel plants when wind and sun aren;t available.  So you really don't get rid of the traditional plants regardless.  Also, it costs money to have fossil fuel plants as backup.  Operating and maintenance personnel, fuel, replacement costs as equipment ages, grid maintenance, etc. 

Regarding wind, New York State is going to install many of these in the ocean off Long Island.  It works out to $3200 per home to build.  (Power for a million homes budget $3.2 billion).  Well, that's the estimate.  Most government projects always cost a lot more when done.  Also, that doesn;t include the cost to build fossil fuel plants that they need to backup them up.  Don't know the cost of those.  Plus the wind generators will be the the ocean requiring much higher maintenance costs for helicopters, ships to bring service technicians, undersea grid cables, etc.  How much is it going to cost when they have to decommission these in the future being 30 miles out to sea?  Nothing's cheap. 

Alan Klein

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #758 on: September 05, 2019, 10:23:37 am »

I guess the same future generation who will have to worry about climate change in the future will have to worry about costs to decommission all these wind generator stations.  Neither will be our problem.  :)

JoeKitchen

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Re: How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science
« Reply #759 on: September 05, 2019, 10:24:48 am »

You just don't understand, Slobodan. Windmills and solar panels make them feel good about themselves. That's far more important than efficiency in electrical production.

When more and more stories like this start happening, wind and solar will go by the wayside. 

The Tale of a Texas Town on 100% Renewable Energy

Epic fail of renewables causes Texas town to have $1200 per year higher power bills

Chuck DeVore: Texas town's renewable energy experiment failure proves Green New Deal unworkable

At the end of the day, people will start to realize France uses nuclear for nearly all of its electrical production and has very low prices, much lower then Germany's woke green revolution electric grid, and people will make the right decision.


I was at the King of Prussia mall this weekend with a bunch of family.  My sister-in-law's boyfriend, Matt, is an architect and very environmentally aware, like most architects.  The KoP mall has a Tesla dealership in it, which is honestly kind of odd that a car dealership is actually inside a mall in one the stores.  (Or maybe it's me; I rarely ever go to a mall.)  We took a look at the vehicles and they are nice, but at the end of it, Matt made a interesting statement that kind of struck me.  He cant stand Tesla and said that if the government stopped the subsidies, the whole company would collapse overnight. 

Now this is something I know to be the case, but hearing it from someone who is center left was striking.  Not a good sign for those on the far left who seem to think all this stuff will just be accepted.  If it does not work, even most of those on the left wont accept it. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 10:35:38 am by JoeKitchen »
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