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Author Topic: disable the built in lens profile  (Read 5081 times)

kers

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disable the built in lens profile
« on: August 01, 2019, 07:17:53 am »

Maybe it is useful to give some feedback to Adobe that it should be possible to NOT apply the built in lenscorrection that comes with some RAW files.

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/disable-built-in-lens-profile

At the moment there is no way to avoid lenscorrection on certain lenses, and the list is growing with almost every new lens.
Nikon Z lenses, Leica , Fuji  etc ...
On the forum of adobe already two years ago this feature request was asked for and still there is no action on Adobe's side.
Other Raw converters show that it is possible to disable lenscorrection.
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Chris Kern

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2019, 05:18:47 pm »

At the moment there is no way to avoid lenscorrection on certain lenses, and the list is growing with almost every new lens.

It is possible to strip the embedded lens correction metadata, but
  • the process is awkward;
  • it requires third-party software;
  • the only application I have found that works is restricted to MacOS;
  • I haven't done exhaustive testing and it is possible that removing the lens corrections in this manner will break some other Lightroom functionality.
That said, first create DNG versions of your raw files with the Adobe DNG Converter.  Then process each DNG with the McGuffog&Company DNG Cleaner application, selecting the options "Remove all opcodes" and "If a file already exists: overwrite."  Finally, import the converted and correction-stripped files into Lightroom.

I've attached two JPEGs generated, respectively, from an original Fuji X-T3 raw file and a converted DNG with the lens corrections removed.  The difference in geometry is apparent even in these low resolution samples.

Obviously, it would be preferable for Adobe to offer this as an option in the Lens Corrections panel.  I wonder if the problem is contractual.  Perhaps the camera manufacturers are sharing proprietary maker notes metadata with Adobe in return for Adobe's agreement to apply the included lens correction values as a mandatory adjustment.

From the camera manufacturer's perspective, this presumably would make the quality of the lens appear better than it actually is.  Or, perhaps more accurately, make it appear better to the vast majority of users at the expense of inconveniencing the small minority who might have a specific reason for making their own geometry modifications.  This is conjecture on my part, but I can't believe there is any technical obstacle to making the application of these metadata optional.

faberryman

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2019, 05:25:35 pm »

Why would you want to disable lens correction?
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Chris Kern

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2019, 06:24:02 pm »

Why would you want to disable lens correction?

Because there is no such thing as a free lunch.

If you follow the link provided in Pieter Kers' original post, you can read various reasons why some Lightroom users are requesting the ability to disable the automatic application of lens correction metadata.  I think all the arguments are variants of the same idea: that applying these corrections involves modifying the image that was optically captured, which inherently will involve some cost: warped geometry, increased noise, reduced fine detail acuity, etc.

I think geometry modification is potentially the most problematical of these automated adjustments, especially with wide-angle lenses, because in an attempt to render straight lines properly it tends to distort objects at the edge of the frame.  This may be innocuous or harmful, depending on the image content and the photographer's perspective (pun intended).

In any event, as long as it wouldn't break other Lightroom functionality, it's difficult to imagine any technical disadvantage in allowing the user to disable it.

digitaldog

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2019, 07:15:29 pm »

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Chris Kern

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2019, 09:03:46 pm »

I wonder if you could build a NULL lens profile.

Interesting idea.  I just downloaded the Adobe Lens Profile Creator utility and, although it is rather old (latest rev: 2012), it was able to open the DNGs I created from my Fuji X-Trans files.  However, while it appears to offer options to disable the CA and vignetting "models"—I suspect it is not reading the embedded Fuji metadata for these attributes but rather using using its own built-in parameters—the option to disable the "geometric distortion model" is grayed out.

Denis de Gannes

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2019, 10:10:31 pm »

One needs to understand the implementation of the need of the "built in lens profile" concept.
This was first introduced by Panasonic when they with Olympus introduced the Micro 4/3 mount see the clips from the first mirrorless digital camera the Panasonic G1 review on DPReview.
When this camera was introduced the micro four thirds lenses, in order to reduce the size, cost of design and production, and weight the lines needed to be digitally corrected for physical distortion and other defects.
When Adobe Lightroom and Adobe camera Raw introduced support for the cameras raw file it did not apply the included corrections and therefore the rendition displayed images that were unacceptable and caused a rift with Panasonic who claimed that Adobe was not rendering the raw files correctly and therefore did not support the Camera. Adobe eventually corrected their development of the raw files. This info is from 2008.
Lightroom eventually introduced Lens profile to LR / ACR in 2012
To wit, the facts are your Camera Manufacturer does not wish you to use the raw files without the lens corrections applied, that's how the system is designed. OK I understand that some may wish to portray the surreal, no problem.
There are tools provided by Adobe to work with the raw files and produce a profile to your likening.
Ok so it took me a few years to accept the concept of compromised lenses that needed digital correction and eventually purchased a Micro Four Thirds camera in late 2011.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 11:11:16 pm by Denis de Gannes »
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nirpat89

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2019, 11:26:11 am »

Obviously, it would be preferable for Adobe to offer this as an option in the Lens Corrections panel.  I wonder if the problem is contractual.  Perhaps the camera manufacturers are sharing proprietary maker notes metadata with Adobe in return for Adobe's agreement to apply the included lens correction values as a mandatory adjustment.

From the camera manufacturer's perspective, this presumably would make the quality of the lens appear better than it actually is.  Or, perhaps more accurately, make it appear better to the vast majority of users at the expense of inconveniencing the small minority who might have a specific reason for making their own geometry modifications.  This is conjecture on my part, but I can't believe there is any technical obstacle to making the application of these metadata optional.

Adobe does offer this in ACR so it couldn't be some sort of contractual restriction - unless they have two separate contracts for each application. 

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Chris Kern

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2019, 12:03:32 pm »

Adobe does offer this in ACR so it couldn't be some sort of contractual restriction

As far as I can tell, you can't disable the lens corrections for Fuji X-Trans files or presumably other raw files with "built-in" lens profiles that are included in the camera manufacturer's proprietary maker notes sections of the metadata, which are the subject of this thread.  (See attached.)  You can only disable lens corrections for the Adobe-supplied profiles.  Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom behave identically in this respect.  Indeed, don't Lightroom and Photoshop share the same ACR code for parsing and rendering raw files?

rdonson

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2019, 12:29:43 pm »

I don't use ACR but in Lr can't your create a "Develop Setting" without a lens profile and then use that on "Apply During Import" when importing the files?
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Chris Kern

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2019, 12:57:01 pm »

I don't use ACR but in Lr can't your create a "Develop Setting" without a lens profile and then use that on "Apply During Import" when importing the files?

I tried that approach, at Andrew Rodney's suggestion, but I wasn't able to figure out a way to eliminate the "built-in" lens corrections.  (See his post and my response, above in this thread.)

It is possible to uncheck the Remove Chromatic Aberration control in Lightroom for my X-Trans files.  Fuji includes a maker notes value for CA, as well as for geometric distortion and vignetting, and I'm assuming it is this Fuji-supplied adjustment that Lightroom is disabling when you uncheck that box.  But I suppose it could be some additional Adobe-supplied parameter.

nirpat89

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2019, 04:51:51 pm »

As far as I can tell, you can't disable the lens corrections for Fuji X-Trans files or presumably other raw files with "built-in" lens profiles that are included in the camera manufacturer's proprietary maker notes sections of the metadata, which are the subject of this thread.  (See attached.)  You can only disable lens corrections for the Adobe-supplied profiles.  Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom behave identically in this respect.  Indeed, don't Lightroom and Photoshop share the same ACR code for parsing and rendering raw files?

I misunderstood...thanks for clarifying.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 05:12:17 pm by nirpat89 »
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fdisilvestro

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2019, 06:06:03 pm »

While I usually prefer to be able to decide what to apply on an image, I can understand why camera manufacturers would like to prevent the user to disable lens correction. This "embedded"correction is used for mirrorless camera lenses, meaning that those corrections are applied also on the image you see on the EVF, so what you see is what you get.

In the film era, a lens with zero distortion and no vignetting (something close to impossible to achieve) was considered ideal, and traditional lenses with really low distortion were very expensive and not common.

I think geometry modification is potentially the most problematical of these automated adjustments, especially with wide-angle lenses, because in an attempt to render straight lines properly it tends to distort objects at the edge of the frame.  This may be innocuous or harmful, depending on the image content and the photographer's perspective (pun intended).

You can solve this by adding manually barrel distortion to the image.

In any case, the fact that ACR and LR don't allow to disable it is a business decision, not a technical one. Other raw converters such as C1 Pro and DxO Photolab allow to disable it and they even provide their own lens profiles for those same lenses

Denis de Gannes

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2019, 05:09:22 am »

While I usually prefer to be able to decide what to apply on an image, I can understand why camera manufacturers would like to prevent the user to disable lens correction. This "embedded"correction is used for mirrorless camera lenses, meaning that those corrections are applied also on the image you see on the EVF, so what you see is what you get.

In the film era, a lens with zero distortion and no vignetting (something close to impossible to achieve) was considered ideal, and traditional lenses with really low distortion were very expensive and not common.

You can solve this by adding manually barrel distortion to the image.

In any case, the fact that ACR and LR don't allow to disable it is a business decision, not a technical one. Other raw converters such as C1 Pro and DxO Photolab allow to disable it and they even provide their own lens profiles for those same lenses

I agree with Francisco's remarks and particularly the last paragraph. The best place to influence Adobe to change add a new feature is to create a request in the appropriate "Adobe Forum for feature request and Bug fixes."  https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/categories/photoshop_family_photoshop_lightroom

I believe there is already a request there and you can add your support if you wish that to happen.
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kers

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2019, 07:00:12 am »

Thank you all for responding...
The RAW file is called RAW because it is supposed to be the original data.
The jpeg is the precooked data. We all want to use RAW for obvious reasons.
So as i see it ; the built-in profile may be applied to the jpeg but not automatically to the RAW.

I know that Nikon for one always was keen on presenting the original data, also because their camera's are used for forensic evidence.
It seems they have abandoned that path.
On a side note one other development that is related to this subject is the introducing of  on-sensor phase-detection autofocus (OSPDAF) .
Jim Kasson just wrote his blog about the problems realted with it; also in this case pixels are extrapolated in this case to fill up gaps.
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/fuji-gfx-100-dark-field-pattern-noise/


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Chris Kern

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2019, 09:44:39 am »

I know that Nikon for one always was keen on presenting the original data, also because their camera's are used for forensic evidence.
It seems they have abandoned that path.
On a side note one other development that is related to this subject is the introducing of  on-sensor phase-detection autofocus (OSPDAF) .
Jim Kasson just wrote his blog about the problems realted with it; also in this case pixels are extrapolated in this case to fill up gaps.

Welcome to the era of computational photography.

Modern cameras are not optical machines that instantaneously record an image on a sensitive medium, but sophisticated software systems that dynamically produce an image from the light collected by their optical components.  Post-processing increasingly begins in the camera these days, not when you transfer the "raw" files to an external computer.

fdisilvestro

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2019, 03:38:14 pm »

Thank you all for responding...
The RAW file is called RAW because it is supposed to be the original data.
The jpeg is the precooked data. We all want to use RAW for obvious reasons.
So as i see it ; the built-in profile may be applied to the jpeg but not automatically to the RAW.

I know that Nikon for one always was keen on presenting the original data, also because their camera's are used for forensic evidence.
It seems they have abandoned that path.
On a side note one other development that is related to this subject is the introducing of  on-sensor phase-detection autofocus (OSPDAF) .
Jim Kasson just wrote his blog about the problems realted with it; also in this case pixels are extrapolated in this case to fill up gaps.
https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/fuji-gfx-100-dark-field-pattern-noise/

The NEF file contains the raw data and a recipe for the lens correction. One particular software vendor (Adobe) does not give you the option to disable the "recipe" for lens corrections but you can use other raw converters that give you the option.

On the other hand, it is unlikely that Nikon or any other camera manufacturer will give you just a sensor dump (really unprocessed data). For instance, Nikon has always aplied what is called WB preconditioning (a small adjustment to the red and blue channels) and noise reduction in long exposures (not LENR) which has been dubbed "Star eater" algorithm.

Think of raw as photographycally unprocessed image, where the manufacturer has done its best to compensate any sensor imperfection. This concept, for some, has been extended to include "lens imperfections".

faberryman

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2019, 04:30:36 pm »

Why would a lens manufacturer want you to see how poorly corrected you shiny new lens actually is?
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kers

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2019, 04:35:52 pm »

...
Think of raw as photographycally unprocessed image, where the manufacturer has done its best to compensate any sensor imperfection. This concept, for some, has been extended to include "lens imperfections".
Thank you, Francisco di Silvestro for the additional info...
and we also have the bayer matrix and the 'Ceci n'est pas un Pipe' problem...

Let us make it clear to Adobe they have to address it...
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fdisilvestro

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Re: disable the built in lens profile
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2019, 05:45:18 pm »

Why would a lens manufacturer want you to see how poorly corrected you shiny new lens actually is?

The other way to see it is that you can get a distortion free image at low cost (compared to traditional low distortion lenses). Besides, it is very likely that the capability of software correction is taken in consideration when designing new lenses, giving more flexibility to the manufacturer.
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