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Author Topic: What medium format, Phaseone  (Read 2712 times)

PeterJaay

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What medium format, Phaseone
« on: July 19, 2019, 02:43:25 pm »

HI everyone.

Looking for a little bit of advice/ input.

I shoot mainly commercial and fashion work, both in the studio and on location,  I currently use nikon d810/850 cameras but am have been considering medium format. My main reason is the leaf shutter and I guess the over all look, which might help to give me a different and more unique look to my work. Big fan of MF film so used to the style of look.

I have looked so many systems and cameras my head is a little fired. Unfortunately i live some distance from a dealer so its difficult for me to try them out.

I have a budget of about 9K GBP,

So far I am considering the following gear,

IQ160/ IQ180 + 110mm, 80mm, DF+ body. Both backs work out similar at price, the 160 is in excellent condition with 5000 clicks, where the 180 is described by the dealer as being in good condition with 60k clicks. Not sure what would be best here, and can find little comparisons online. Is the MP the only difference? 

My question with CCD is also, is buying on the the above backs in 2019 daft? Which leads me onto the next option.

IQ150, + 110mm, 80mm + XF body, all are in excellent condition. The 150 back is cheaper so i can afford an XF body. Or if i want the CCD back i can look at the credo 40 or IQ140.

Or for a similar amount I could get the new Hasselblad X1DII plus a couple of lenses. Ideal for location but not sure about the studio and how how good the EVF is for fashion.

I have kinda discounted the H hasselblads to the the UI on the older models, ie H4 etc.

Or if anyone has any suggestions?

Any input would be amazing.

Cheers


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StingerNikon

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 03:21:48 pm »

Hi Peter,

My Advice would be consider a Hasselblad H system camera body with a phase One Digital Back. It should be better value for money in my view.
You can find a good Hasselblad H body for a reasonably low price. While via XF body route - you need to be ready to spend significantly more on the camera body.
 
I had several Hasselblad H cameras and different Phase One Digital backs and apart from high ISO it covers all my photography needs.

Regards,
Konstantin.


HI everyone.

Looking for a little bit of advice/ input.

I shoot mainly commercial and fashion work, both in the studio and on location,  I currently use nikon d810/850 cameras but am have been considering medium format. My main reason is the leaf shutter and I guess the over all look, which might help to give me a different and more unique look to my work. Big fan of MF film so used to the style of look.

I have looked so many systems and cameras my head is a little fired. Unfortunately i live some distance from a dealer so its difficult for me to try them out.

I have a budget of about 9K GBP,

So far I am considering the following gear,

IQ160/ IQ180 + 110mm, 80mm, DF+ body. Both backs work out similar at price, the 160 is in excellent condition with 5000 clicks, where the 180 is described by the dealer as being in good condition with 60k clicks. Not sure what would be best here, and can find little comparisons online. Is the MP the only difference? 

My question with CCD is also, is buying on the the above backs in 2019 daft? Which leads me onto the next option.

IQ150, + 110mm, 80mm + XF body, all are in excellent condition. The 150 back is cheaper so i can afford an XF body. Or if i want the CCD back i can look at the credo 40 or IQ140.

Or for a similar amount I could get the new Hasselblad X1DII plus a couple of lenses. Ideal for location but not sure about the studio and how how good the EVF is for fashion.

I have kinda discounted the H hasselblads to the the UI on the older models, ie H4 etc.

Or if anyone has any suggestions?

Any input would be amazing.

Cheers

DChris

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2019, 04:31:17 pm »

Well you lucked out.

Watch Zack Arias compare his Phase One XF100MP (long time Phase One user (8 years) and Fujifilm user) to the Fujifilm GFX100

For the down and dirty go to 1:24:36 in the YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3949&v=0ofRYTn5_ZI

But Zack's talk about medium format starts at 1:05:30 in the video, and he walks you through examples.

Dave
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douglevy

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2019, 05:07:42 pm »

DO NOT buy a H system with a phase back...I own that system. I love it. But they just closed the system and I either can't ever upgrade or have to sell my whole kit to go Phase. The IQ3100 or 3100 Trichromatic is the last compatible back I can use on my system. Look at the fuji, or your XF option.

PeterJaay

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2019, 06:35:26 pm »

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your input so far.

Iíve definitely considered the Fuji gfx50 but itís max sync speed is 125, which is worse than my Nikonís at 250.
Again I looked at a h camera with a phase back but I canít find a decent deal on a h fit phase back..

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BobShaw

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2019, 07:27:27 pm »

So you are happy to buy old, old technology with 60K clicks on it for 9K GBP?

My experience with medium format is that I started with Mamiya 645 and then went to a Hasselblad H1 with Phase back and then H2 before selling them for an H3DII and then H4D. The integrated H3 and H4 series cameras were far better than the H2 plus Phase back. I did not like the boxy style of the Mamiya and H series was much more enjoyable.

I have since sold my H4D and bought the X1D. This is a fabulous camera and you will buy a new or almost new kit with lenses for less money than you are planning on spending and probably get a warranty. Hasselblad warranties are transferable if the you have the original receipt.

Will you like the EVF? I don't know. I didn't like it at first but now I have no problem with it. It certainly helps in low light and focus peaking helps my ageing eyes.
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DChris

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2019, 07:40:09 pm »


""Iíve definitely considered the Fuji gfx50 but itís max sync speed is 125, which is worse than my Nikonís at 250.""

I use the Elinchrom Transmitter PRO for Fujifilm, on my Fuji cameras and Elinchrom packs to get much higher than the standard flash sync speed.

There are many flash systems, besides Elinchrom, that can do this...just do a little research on google. Profoto, lots of quality third party flash units, etc.

The issue of camera body max flash sync speeds have been gone for a while now. And no...you don't need leaf shutter lenses... Welcome to 2019.

Dave   
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Joe Towner

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2019, 07:43:54 pm »

How invested in lights are you currently?  You can go with the X1D and get the sync speed, or go with the GFX & swap lights to something that does HSS or go with HMI's and don't worry about sync.

To get 'the look' you'll want to go with the larger CCD sensors or the 100mp CMOS.
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douglevy

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2019, 09:36:58 pm »

Let's not pretend the high speed sync options are true sync - you really have to study the mechanics of it to see if it works for how you work. It's expensive to get into (you need very specific triggers and lights) and limits the distance, f stop and modifiers you can use (by limiting power, you're limiting the amount of diffusion you can push it through). I rarely use it above F/4 on my Nikons with the Elinchrom ELB1200 and high sync head. I use my leaf shutters all the time.

BobShaw

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2019, 11:03:55 pm »

And no...you don't need leaf shutter lenses... Welcome to 2019.
Many would argue that you don't need photographers in 2019 either, but if you want high speed sync then leaf shutters craps all over HSS (:-)
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2019, 07:49:04 am »

If there is any way... I recommend living and shooting with a system for a week.  Good dealers can arrange that.  Or itís worth renting.  A systems specs and features are worthless if it doesnít gel with you personally.  Especially because medium format is a different working style than a typical slr.  Sometimes slower, sometimes more cumbersome, but often more efficient depending on your work.  Everyoneís needs are different.  Itís worth the rental.
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BAB

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2019, 09:30:48 am »

There is an entire H system with lenses for sale that would fit your needs perfectly on Craigís list OC
Buy cheap buy twice, that why you need to buy previously experienced.
Zack works for Fuji!
Get a big sensor two lenses and crop the shit out of the images and you will still have tack sharp, great color, no noise and perfect gradations in all your images.
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Dan Wells

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2019, 12:00:37 pm »

The CCD backs have a different look from CMOS cameras/backs. They're beautiful at base ISO (which is often around 50), but fall apart by ISO 400 (and aren't great at 200, either). I've looked at them occasionally, but size and weight has always ruled those systems out for me. The IQ180 in particular has stunning base ISO detail and dynamic range, even on very large prints.

I've considered the Fuji CMOS cameras much more seriously, which use the same sensor as the IQ x50 (and bought a Z7, which has the same image sensor as your D850, instead). I looked very closely at large prints from the Z7 and 50 MP medium format CMOS , and found that I mostly couldn't tell, staring at a big print from 6" away. If there was any advantage, it was in favor of the Fuji, but it was much smaller than, say the difference between a D800e (probably a D810, too - but I don't have a lot of D810 experience) and a D850/Z7. I was coming from Fuji APS-C most recently, and the difference between 24 MP and 46 MP (plus a sensor size) was night and day, while the difference between 46 and 50 plus another size was tiny. Remember that, to gain the 4 MP and the extra sensor size, you give up one significant sensor generation - it's the same technology as a D810, not a D850.

This does NOT apply to the GFX 100, which has a current-generation sensor, plus it has a radically higher resolution than anything below medium format. According to specs and early reviews, the detail and dynamic range are amazing (body may still be a little quirky, although Fuji's good at fixing such things in firmware)

I haven't had my hands on one yet - would love to try it, although it's too bulky for most of what I do (wish it was in the 50R body). Nobody's had their hands on a new Sony A7r IV yet, which uses a 24x36mm version of that same sensor at 61 MP. If the real performance is in line with the specs, it should perform slightly better than the older 50 MP medium format sensor (the 40-50 MP Sony 24x36mm sensors are extremely close, and this is a slight improvement - should be enough to kick it over).

Everything I talk about here except for the IQ180 and the GFX100 is in a very narrow (and superb) range of image quality. What'll it take to tell the difference between a D850, a GFX 50 or IQ150 and (presumably) an A7r IV? Put the IQ160 in there, too - except that it can't keep pace as ISO rises. A really close look at a very large print, or pixel-peeping at high magnifications... In most cases, "upgrading" from one to another will be invisible.

Upgrading from 24 MP to any of these will be very visible if you print big - I did it 8 months ago, and am amazed at the difference in my big prints. Upgrading from one of these to the GFX 100 will probably be very visible if you print big enough (what's "big enough"? - without experience with the GFX 100, I don't know). Do any of our lucky GFX 100 owners have a similar print from GFX 100 and anything in the next group down (GFX 50, X1D, D850, Z7, A7rII,III or IV, S1R)?

You have the additional consideration of flash sync... If you don't mind the AF, what about an X1D? There should be originals for sale at decent prices, as some photographers upgrade to the X1D II. It's a sidegrade from your D850 to the older 50 MP sensor,  but it does have leaf shutters. Expensive lenses, but it just might be what you want?

The body and back systems are huge - the spec sheets don't do justice to just how big they are. They look like they're only a little bigger than something like a D5 or a 1Dx when you read the specs . When you handle them, they feel more like twice that - and the mirror slap is a real recoil. The X1D is a really nice camera to handle, although the interface is odd. The GFX 50S and R are also nice cameras to handle (the 50S feels quite a bit like a good-sized DSLR, while the 50R feels like a big rangefinder - unusual, but not bad at all, especially with the smaller lenses).

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DChris

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2019, 02:47:24 pm »

Dear BobShaw, thank you for your kind and thoughtful words above.

I personal don't have leaf shutter lenses, but Fujifilm makes an adapter for mounting various leaf shutter lenses on their GFX cameras, here is a link for compatible lenses.

https://www.fujifilm.com/support/digital_cameras/compatibility/mountadapter/

I also don't use HSS (high speed Sync), I use HS (hyper Sync) to get a powerful flash at shutter speeds above a cameras standard, but slow flash sync speed. Elinchrom has a very nice write-up showing in detail the differences between HSS vs HS.

 https://www.elinchrom.com/learn/hss-hs.html

Here are some YouTube videos on using Elinchrom HS

Michael Clark Elinchrom HS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vas4AyU2oZk

Michael Clark with GFX100 at 5 FPS sports with Elinchrom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gobReogVbNM

General video on Studio and Elinchrom HS,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9O3CA28L2c

I also don't have the new fancy Elinchrom packs. All my Elinchrom flash gear I bought used off of Craigslist. I have the older Quadra pack with A head (A heads are not good for HS), but I picked-up a Quadra HS head which lets you do HS. I also don't have the new Ranger pack, I have the older Ranger RX Speed AS with S head which gets me to HS at 1/3000 shutter speed.

For ring flash I use the older Elinchrom Quadra with the RQ Ringflash ECO, which lets me get to 1/8000 shutter speed with full power flash sync.

Sincerely,

Dave





 
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BobShaw

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2019, 08:07:49 pm »

I personal don't have leaf shutter lenses, but Fujifilm makes an adapter for mounting various leaf shutter lenses on their GFX cameras, here is a link for compatible lenses.
......
For ring flash I use the older Elinchrom Quadra with the RQ Ringflash ECO, which lets me get to 1/8000 shutter speed with full power flash sync.

Thanks Dave.
I am pretty familiar with the Elinchrom system. I have used it for over 10 years.
It is nice and reliable kit. I have components that are over 20 years old and still work well.

One limitation of most Elinchrom gear though is that the flash duration is long compared to say Broncolor. The one exception is the A (Action) Head on a Quadra pack.
You need a high flash speed to photograph say water splashes.
So a huge plus for me is that all these guys are racing out and buying HS heads and selling their A Heads!

I sell a lot of Elinchrom gear on ebay if you ever need any.

Elinchrom did a great thing marketing wise and technically in introducing the HS system as it allows most photographers with focal plane shutters to get a faster sync speed, but it has limitations.
If you read the link you published and then read between the lines you pick up those limitations.

HSS works by dividing the flash power between the number of flashes required to cover the sliding window. The sliding window is linear but the flash power is peaked. So unless the timing is incredibly accurate there can be banding. Also they have to ensure that each pulse is actually the same power. Also difficult.

HS works by having a deliberately slow flash duration. Exactly the opposite of what most people want to freeze action. Also as you can see from the graph, the power decreases over time.

In both cases, you do not  have the full flash power available and they say that the light needs to be near the subject. That may be OK for big soft boxes in portraits but not so good for full length moving subjects.

Fuji makes adapters to use other parties lenses, yes, but personally if I am spending thousands of dollars on a camera I expect a complete system with no finger pointing.

The biggest thing for me is that I can photograph anywhere in any studio or outside, using any begged, borrowed or hired flash system and get predictable results using standard flashes and leaf shutters at high sync speeds.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2019, 10:36:56 am »

Hi,

There is a significant difference between FP shutters and leaf shutters. Leaf shutters are fully open at X-sync at any speed. On Focal Plane shutters the the shutter is only partly open above the sync speed. So, shooting shorter times, weather HS or HHS the shutter is partly closed. That means that a large part of the light (that is photons) are caught by the shutter you have loss of light. So if X-sync time is 1/60 s and you shoot 1/250 s, you loose two stops. Like going from 400Ws to 100Ws.

Many flash tubes have quite long duration at full power, so even leaf shutters may shade some of the light. But, there are short duration flashes that can put all light trough a leaf shutter also at short opening times.

This may have some interesting info..

Best regards
Erik




Thanks Dave.
I am pretty familiar with the Elinchrom system. I have used it for over 10 years.
It is nice and reliable kit. I have components that are over 20 years old and still work well.

One limitation of most Elinchrom gear though is that the flash duration is long compared to say Broncolor. The one exception is the A (Action) Head on a Quadra pack.
You need a high flash speed to photograph say water splashes.
So a huge plus for me is that all these guys are racing out and buying HS heads and selling their A Heads!

I sell a lot of Elinchrom gear on ebay if you ever need any.

Elinchrom did a great thing marketing wise and technically in introducing the HS system as it allows most photographers with focal plane shutters to get a faster sync speed, but it has limitations.
If you read the link you published and then read between the lines you pick up those limitations.

HSS works by dividing the flash power between the number of flashes required to cover the sliding window. The sliding window is linear but the flash power is peaked. So unless the timing is incredibly accurate there can be banding. Also they have to ensure that each pulse is actually the same power. Also difficult.

HS works by having a deliberately slow flash duration. Exactly the opposite of what most people want to freeze action. Also as you can see from the graph, the power decreases over time.

In both cases, you do not  have the full flash power available and they say that the light needs to be near the subject. That may be OK for big soft boxes in portraits but not so good for full length moving subjects.

Fuji makes adapters to use other parties lenses, yes, but personally if I am spending thousands of dollars on a camera I expect a complete system with no finger pointing.

The biggest thing for me is that I can photograph anywhere in any studio or outside, using any begged, borrowed or hired flash system and get predictable results using standard flashes and leaf shutters at high sync speeds.
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rogerxnz

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2019, 07:58:57 am »

DO NOT buy a H system with a phase back...I own that system. I love it. But they just closed the system and I either can't ever upgrade or have to sell my whole kit to go Phase. The IQ3100 or 3100 Trichromatic is the last compatible back I can use on my system. Look at the fuji, or your XF option.


Who closed what system?

Please elaborate.
Roger
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douglevy

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2019, 09:15:27 am »

It means you can only use H cameras with H backs and Phase cameras with Phase backs. It used to be that you could put leaf and phase backs on H cameras (the H1/2/4x/5x (what I have) and 6x.) With the IQ 4 series, Phase is no longer making backs that will mount on Hassy cameras.

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2019, 09:25:48 am »

From my (highly biased) point of view: Hassy hasnít kept their full-frame 645 lens line up to date as resolutions have increased (look up the release dates for Hassy HC lens; youíll be surprised), and hadnít made many meaningful updates to the H body since the h4 (10 years ago). Hassy focus seems to be very heavily on their nice crop-medium-format X platform) so it didnít make a lot of sense for Phase One (now an exclusively full-frame-645 company) to continue making new backs for the H platform.

We still sell a lot of Certified Pre-Owned Phase One backs with Hassy mounts to people who have Hassy H bodies and lenses.

douglevy

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 09:27:17 am »

Doug, your'e not wrong. But it is frustrating as Phase promised "Open source forever" to us for years.
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