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Author Topic: What medium format, Phaseone  (Read 4252 times)

Doug Peterson

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2019, 09:32:01 am »

Doug, your'e not wrong. But it is frustrating as Phase promised "Open source forever" to us for years.

Agreed.

I doubt you’d find “forever” in any official P1 statements (forever is a very long time after all  :D), but that’s just pedantry; there’s no question they played up their commitment to the “open platform” philosophy. Some of that survives in the form of 20 different Phase/Leaf backs being able to be used on the XF and many free updates to the XF that add really useful features. But that could also be called maximum-realistic forward/backward compatibility. As far as the “supporting other camera bodies” part of “open platform” - that’s just gone. Too bad too; they were the last company still providing it.

On a related note I have a soft spot for the Contax 645 and wish P1 had released the IQ3 100mp for that platform.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 09:59:30 am by Doug Peterson »
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douglevy

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2019, 09:35:37 am »

Yeah, I'm in that weird spot where I bought into the H system when the DF+ was the only phase choice, and the H was pretty clearly superior. Now it's switched. Being "stuck" with the IQ3100 isn't a bad place, but in 3-5 years I'm sure I'll be irritated.

Doug Peterson

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2019, 10:00:44 am »

Yeah, I'm in that weird spot where I bought into the H system when the DF+ was the only phase choice, and the H was pretty clearly superior. Now it's switched. Being "stuck" with the IQ3100 isn't a bad place, but in 3-5 years I'm sure I'll be irritated.

I feel for you.  :-\

rogerxnz

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2019, 05:14:22 pm »

Thanks for your reply, Doug.
When I bought my 4-150, I was told it would never work on a H body because H bodies are not able to control or take advantage of the features of the 4-150. That is, the H bodies don't have the required smarts or connections for the features of the new back.

So, if that is the case, I think it's unfair to say PhaseOne has "closed the system" or broken a promise to keep an "open platform". It's not realistic to expect PhaseOne to limit the features of its backs so they can be used on H bodies, especially as, many of the H lenses are advertised as not suitable for full-frame sensors.

I agree it is a shame that we cannot use our 4-150s on H bodies but, as many have commented, Hasselblad doesn't seem committed to updating its products for full-frame sensors and some of its accessories are primitive. I refer to its WLF, for example. The WLF doesn't allow any of the  auto exposure options! PhaseOne does offer cross-grade pricing so H users do have options.

It's not PhaseOne's fault that Hasselblad is not interested in professional photographers to the same extent as PhaseOne and that Hasselblad seems more interested in drone and cropped-sensor fashion accessory/toy cameras.
Roger (Hasselblad user for 40 years)
(putting on flame-proof suit now)


It means you can only use H cameras with H backs and Phase cameras with Phase backs. It used to be that you could put leaf and phase backs on H cameras (the H1/2/4x/5x (what I have) and 6x.) With the IQ 4 series, Phase is no longer making backs that will mount on Hassy cameras.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 05:17:41 am by rogerxnz »
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Roger Hayman
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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2019, 11:22:04 pm »

When I bought my 4-150, I was told it would never work on a H body because H bodies are not able to control or take advantage of the features of the 4-150. That is, the H bodies don't have the required smarts or connections for the features of the new back.

I'm assuming that a more detailed explanation wasn't offered due to the fact that this is complete nonsense. An IQ4 back will work on a purely mechanical view or technical camera. Where in the world are they hiding the brains that make an Alpa, Arca, or Cambo view or tech camera such a great conversationalist with an IQ4? What features does an IQ4 have, which an IQ3 lacks, which render it unusable on an H6x? I haven't seen any statement that IQ4 backs won't work on a tech camera because they would have to "limit the features of its backs so they can be used".

This sounds more like the kind of answer someone would give when they don't want to give you an honest explanation. An honest answer would have been, In order to deliver the optimum combination of image quality, features, and user experience, a camera maker needs to have control of the entire system. This is something that Hasselblad determined some years ago and which Phase One has come to realize as well (perhaps not by choice). In other words, when Hasselblad or Phase One or any other manufacturer has control over the design and integration of lenses, cameras, accessories, sensor system, and software an optimized system can be offered.

Of course, there could always be some financial considerations involved. Phase one now bears the full costs of keeping a camera factory operating in Japan to produce the XF and associated lenses. If a significant portion of IQ4 sales were for one or more cameras they don't manufacture, keeping what was Mamiya running might become more burdensome finacially due to the potential reduction in volume.

A Hasselblad H6 body seems to be plenty "smart" enough to run an H6D-400c MS with a full-frame 100 mp sensor in single-shot, 4-shot (full color resolution), or 6-shot (400 mp extended resolution) in addition to capturing 4k full sensor width RAW video. If you're using the HTS 1.5 adapter, it will display the precise amount of tilt, shift, and rotation on the camera body grip and transmit that data along with the lens focal length, aperture, and focus distance into the image file for automatic correction. It will automatically apply focus calibration information from the back combined with focal length, aperture, and distance data from the lens, and accelerometer data from the body to optimize focus calculations to account for sensor plane tolerances, aperture dependent focus shift (precisely calculated for distance and focal length), and degree of camera tilt or swing based on an enormous amount of stored lens data. Rather than go on, I'll just say that it seems to be reasonably smart and a pretty good communicator.

I'll end here. There is enough misinformation in your post that I think I'll take it in smaller bites.
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TechTalk

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2019, 11:54:23 pm »

some of its accessories are primitive. I refer to its WLF, for example. It doesn't even allow autofocus!

Not much to say here other than this is completely false. Hasselblad H camera autofocus has no connection to the viewfinder whatsoever.

https://store.hasselblad.com/products/hvm-waist-level-viewfinder-for-h-series-cameras

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rogerxnz

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2019, 05:21:52 am »

Sorry, I meant the WLF doesn't allow any of the auto exposure options. Now corrected. Thank you, TechTalk.
Roger

Not much to say here other than this is completely false. Hasselblad H camera autofocus has no connection to the viewfinder whatsoever.

https://store.hasselblad.com/products/hvm-waist-level-viewfinder-for-h-series-cameras
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Roger Hayman
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rogerxnz

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2019, 06:10:19 am »

I don't think the reference to technical cameras is helpful. Tech cameras are so dumb, they don't connect with any of the smarts of any digital backs. They fire off the flash sync signal which is a physical connection without any smarts and they have to be woken up manually to even do that.

I'm not a technocrat but I think two smarts the XF and 4-150 combination has that wouldn't be available on the H bodies are frame averaging and automatic focus stacking. There may be a workaround for frame averaging but it won't be using any of the H's smarts (that is, the H would have to be set manually to keep the lens open for the 4-150 to do its work) but I doubt there is a workaround for focus stacking.

PhaseOne says it has plans to extend the capabilities of the 4-150. So who knows where the smarts of the 4-150 will take us.

In conclusion, I repeat my view that I don't think it is fair to expect PhaseOne to restrict the features on its backs to those that H bodies can cope with. I think this even if my analysis of the smarts is incorrect!
Roger



I'm assuming that a more detailed explanation wasn't offered due to the fact that this is complete nonsense. An IQ4 back will work on a purely mechanical view or technical camera. Where in the world are they hiding the brains that make an Alpa, Arca, or Cambo view or tech camera such a great conversationalist with an IQ4? What features does an IQ4 have, which an IQ3 lacks, which render it unusable on an H6x? I haven't seen any statement that IQ4 backs won't work on a tech camera because they would have to "limit the features of its backs so they can be used".

This sounds more like the kind of answer someone would give when they don't want to give you an honest explanation. An honest answer would have been, In order to deliver the optimum combination of image quality, features, and user experience, a camera maker needs to have control of the entire system. This is something that Hasselblad determined some years ago and which Phase One has come to realize as well (perhaps not by choice). In other words, when Hasselblad or Phase One or any other manufacturer has control over the design and integration of lenses, cameras, accessories, sensor system, and software an optimized system can be offered.

Of course, there could always be some financial considerations involved. Phase one now bears the full costs of keeping a camera factory operating in Japan to produce the XF and associated lenses. If a significant portion of IQ4 sales were for one or more cameras they don't manufacture, keeping what was Mamiya running might become more burdensome finacially due to the potential reduction in volume.

A Hasselblad H6 body seems to be plenty "smart" enough to run an H6D-400c MS with a full-frame 100 mp sensor in single-shot, 4-shot (full color resolution), or 6-shot (400 mp extended resolution) in addition to capturing 4k full sensor width RAW video. If you're using the HTS 1.5 adapter, it will display the precise amount of tilt, shift, and rotation on the camera body grip and transmit that data along with the lens focal length, aperture, and focus distance into the image file for automatic correction. It will automatically apply focus calibration information from the back combined with focal length, aperture, and distance data from the lens, and accelerometer data from the body to optimize focus calculations to account for sensor plane tolerances, aperture dependent focus shift (precisely calculated for distance and focal length), and degree of camera tilt or swing based on an enormous amount of stored lens data. Rather than go on, I'll just say that it seems to be reasonably smart and a pretty good communicator.

I'll end here. There is enough misinformation in your post that I think I'll take it in smaller bites.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 06:17:40 am by rogerxnz »
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Roger Hayman
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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2019, 03:42:41 pm »

I think this even if my analysis of the smarts is incorrect!
Roger

Now that I believe.
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Joe Towner

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2019, 05:30:28 pm »

With the H back to body connection, the protocol was very old - it had to work with the H1 after all.  The newer Orange Square H glass wasn't going to be supported on the non-Hasselblad digital backs, so the shutter speed was limited.  The HC glass in some cases will work fine at the higher resolutions, but it's so hit & miss that it's not worth the dealer/PR issues to support a platform that isn't getting better.  Yes, you can build a camera that'll take a HC lens & IQ4 back, but Phase isn't going to be on the hook for the IQ you get out of it.
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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2019, 05:40:31 pm »

many of the H lenses are advertised as not suitable for full-frame sensors.

Again you're misleading at best. I'll keep it as simple as possible.

HCD lenses were designed with two factors in mind that were not considered in the HC lens designs. 1) Hasselblad incorporated the fact that distortion, vignetting, and some chromatic aberration can be corrected digitally into the initial lens design. Why? Because designing a lens with some degree of under correction of these factors opens the potential for better correction of factors that must be corrected optically, as every lens design is a long series of trade-offs. This approach also allowed for potential reductions in size weight and complexity. 2) The largest digital sensors at the time of design were 36.7 x 49 mm (somewhat smaller that the 40.0 x 53.4 mm sensors that we now call full-frame even though that is still slightly smaller than the 42 x 56 mm film size). This 37 x 49 mm sensor size is what the HCD lens designs were optimized for, although the image circles extend well beyond just those sensor dimensions.

For the two reasons detailed above, Hasselblad does not recommend HCD lenses for use with FILM. The film cannot apply the DAC lens corrections and the film size is even larger than "full-frame" sensors.

Using HCD lenses with full-frame digital sensors is NOT a problem. Hasselblad does make users aware that there may be slightly more vignetting (fully compensated for by DAC lens correction) and slightly less resolution in the corners, but it in no way limits their use. They most certainly are NOT "advertised as not suitable for full-frame sensors" as you claim.

Hasselblad simply advises that they do not guarantee the highest performance in the extreme corners. Read up a little...

https://cdn.hasselblad.com/72678dc2-cb76-4fd5-aa5a-8bca7f8901b9_hcd+and+large+sensors.pdf
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rogerxnz

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2019, 06:33:44 pm »

Thank you, TechTalk, for your useful information.

I agree my statement that HCD lenses are "not suitable for full-frame sensors" is my interpretation of Hasselblad's statement that they "deliver optimal performance when used with the 48 x 36mm sensor of the H System digital cameras." and that your explanation and the Hasselblad bulletin you refer to show that, with Digital Auto Correction (I think that is what "DAC" stands for) turned on, Phocus can improve full-frame images. The bulletin also shows how little difference there is in size between the optimised sensor size and full-frame sensors.

So, for Phocus users, things are not as bad as I thought.

What about for PhaseOne and Capture One users? Will Phocus allow DAC to be applied to images made with PhaseOne backs? I know that Capture One offers manual lens correction generally and auto correction for the HCD 4/28 (only). So Capture One could be a workaround for correcting HCD images taken with PhaseOne backs.
Roger




Again you're misleading at best. I'll keep it as simple as possible.

HCD lenses were designed with two factors in mind that were not considered in the HC lens designs. 1) Hasselblad incorporated the fact that distortion, vignetting, and some chromatic aberration can be corrected digitally into the initial lens design. Why? Because designing a lens with some degree of under correction of these factors opens the potential for better correction of factors that must be corrected optically, as every lens design is a long series of trade-offs. This approach also allowed for potential reductions in size weight and complexity. 2) The largest digital sensors at the time of design were 36.7 x 49 mm (somewhat smaller that the 40.0 x 53.4 mm sensors that we now call full-frame even though that is still slightly smaller than the 42 x 56 mm film size). This 37 x 49 mm sensor size is what the HCD lens designs were optimized for, although the image circles extend well beyond just those sensor dimensions.

For the two reasons detailed above, Hasselblad does not recommend HCD lenses for use with FILM. The film cannot apply the DAC lens corrections and the film size is even larger than "full-frame" sensors.

Using HCD lenses with full-frame digital sensors is NOT a problem. Hasselblad does make users aware that there may be slightly more vignetting (fully compensated for by DAC lens correction) and slightly less resolution in the corners, but it in no way limits their use. They most certainly are NOT "advertised as not suitable for full-frame sensors" as you claim.

Hasselblad simply advises that they do not guarantee the highest performance in the extreme corners. Read up a little...

https://cdn.hasselblad.com/72678dc2-cb76-4fd5-aa5a-8bca7f8901b9_hcd+and+large+sensors.pdf
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Roger Hayman
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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2019, 08:10:41 pm »

So, for Phocus users, things are not as bad as I thought.

What about for PhaseOne and Capture One users? Will Phocus allow DAC to be applied to images made with PhaseOne backs? I know that Capture One offers manual lens correction generally and auto correction for the HCD 4/28 (only). So Capture One could be a workaround for correcting HCD images taken with PhaseOne backs.
Roger
Well, yes. For Phocus users they have Hasselblad backs so no problem.
As far as I know,  Phocus does not support Phase files.

The Hasselblad H1 was released in 2002 as a film camera and Phase made digital backs for them. In about 2008 Hasselblad released the H3DII which did not support third party backs. So the writing was on the wall a decade ago. I guess they thought that those that wanted to use third party backs would go away, but they didn't. They probably thought that V series users would eventually go away too, but they supported them with a lens adaptor for the H series. Now they have bought out a new camera for V series users. The latest H5X and H6 support Phase. I can't see that continuing now that they have an X series as well. (Did Phase/Mamiya ever make a camera that allowed Hasselblad backs on it?) 

Anyway, I guess that hybrid users need to make up their minds which camera they want. In my experience the integrated camera is far better anyway.
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TechTalk

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2019, 08:21:02 pm »

With the H back to body connection, the protocol was very old - it had to work with the H1 after all.  The newer Orange Square H glass wasn't going to be supported on the non-Hasselblad digital backs, so the shutter speed was limited.  The HC glass in some cases will work fine at the higher resolutions, but it's so hit & miss that it's not worth the dealer/PR issues to support a platform that isn't getting better.  Yes, you can build a camera that'll take a HC lens & IQ4 back, but Phase isn't going to be on the hook for the IQ you get out of it.

OK. Your post is short enough to take all in one bite.

- Changing or updating communication protocols to enable new features and functionality is a fact of life. This is why a Phase One XF is not compatible with any Phase One/Leaf backs except the IQ or Credo series. It's why your IQ back may or may not work with your older Phase One camera body or may offer limited features (e.g. Phase One 645 DF+ and Mamiya DF+: Support for all P, P+ and IQ1, IQ2 and IQ3 backs. IQ3 back with limited features only available with XF camera). It's just not practical to try to make every back work with every camera anymore. Sorry! Phase One Camera and Back compatibilty Chart

- It's also why not all Hasselblad backs work with all Hasselblad bodies. It's also why Hasselblad long ago started referring to models as "D" for Dedicated Bodies and Backs and tried to get the idea across to photographers that the concept of generic bodies and generic backs had run its course as it was too limiting in bringing new features and functions forward and a barrier to some improvements in image quality. Hasselblad lead the charge to stop thinking of cameras and digital backs as generic and was beaten and bloodied for it as a number of people freaked out!

- Meanwhile, back in Denmark... Phase One saw this as a huge marketing opportunity and proclaimed themselves the standard bearers of FREEDOM of Choice! They marketed the heck out of the generic camera and back concept as a noble company philosophy. To quote from the IQ2 user manual... "Open Platform – Freedom of Choice - Phase One’s Open Platform policy delivers maximum choice and compatibility with a wide range of different camera platforms."

- Across the way in Sweden, Hasselblad did what they said they would do. They focused on making each generation better (yes, better Joe) and more tightly integrated than the one before. At present, they are at the H6 generation which has what some consider to be the best user interface on any camera and a model for the industry. The H6 required a major overhaul of the electronics inside both the body and back to provide for a variety of changes which includes the 1/2,000 flash sync speed.

- So let's talk sync speed. You're absolutely right that the faster flash sync only works with H6D backs. How about the Phase One top sync speed? Does that require specific backs and sensors? Of course it does, as both Phase One and Hasselblad are using the same technique to accomplish the highest sync speed. I'll give Phase One credit for doing this much sooner. Each company improves and expands their system with their own priorities and timetables.  https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/#SyncSpeedTable

I changed my mind. Though your post was short, the disparagement was broad. So, I think I'll take a break. Mopping up messes was never my favorite thing to do.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 08:25:30 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2019, 09:41:00 pm »

Well, yes. For Phocus users they have Hasselblad backs so no problem.
As far as I know,  Phocus does not support Phase files.

The Hasselblad H1 was released in 2002 as a film camera and Phase made digital backs for them. In about 2008 Hasselblad released the H3DII which did not support third party backs. So the writing was on the wall a decade ago. I guess they thought that those that wanted to use third party backs would go away, but they didn't. They probably thought that V series users would eventually go away too, but they supported them with a lens adaptor for the H series. Now they have bought out a new camera for V series users. The latest H5X and H6 support Phase. I can't see that continuing now that they have an X series as well. (Did Phase/Mamiya ever make a camera that allowed Hasselblad backs on it?) 

Anyway, I guess that hybrid users need to make up their minds which camera they want. In my experience the integrated camera is far better anyway.

That's right Bob. In late October 2007, Hasselblad's former CEO announced they were discontinuing the H2 to focus on integrated DSLR cameras. https://www.adorama.com/alc/0009950/blogarticle/Hasselblad-drops-H2-launches-H2f-expands-H3

This "closing" of the system lasted almost exactly 4 years. Then the H4x was announced in late October 2011 with support for third party backs and film. The H4x not only supported third party backs, but also the then new True Focus feature regardless of what was attached to the back of the camera. As True Focus only requires the lens and body to communicate, it was made available for everyone to use. This continued forward with the H5x and current H6x.  https://www.photigy.com/school/hasselblad-h4x-camera-hands-on-review-back-to-open-architecture/

Note: Some Leaf backs may not work. https://captureintegration.com/hasselblad/h5x/

Another note: I admire the folks at Capture Integration for their serious and levelheaded approach. None of the marketing hype and hyperbole or constant shameless self-promotion. Have especially appreciated posts from Steve Hendrix over the years.

One more thing... When the H1 was introduced in 2002 it was introduced and designed as a platform for BOTH film and digital. You can still shoot film on your H6. There are some folks that like both film and digital precisely because they are different.
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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2019, 11:22:52 pm »


- Changing or updating communication protocols to enable new features and functionality is a fact of life. This is why a Phase One XF is not compatible any Phase One/Leaf backs except the IQ or Credo series.

The fact that man is mortal  or that protocols will be changed at whim doesn't make us happier about hastened planned obsolescence.

Edmund
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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2019, 11:46:50 pm »

The fact that man is mortal  or that protocols will be changed at whim doesn't make us happier about hastened planned obsolescence.

Edmund

or as we age, our own unplanned obsolescence.
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TechTalk

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2019, 11:58:22 pm »

Agreed.

I doubt you’d find “forever” in any official P1 statements (forever is a very long time after all  :D), but that’s just pedantry; there’s no question they played up their commitment to the “open platform” philosophy.

Agreed Doug. I don't believe "forever" was ever a word that was used. Infinity maybe? No... that would be too over the top as well.

Oh well, in any event I agree.
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douglevy

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2019, 10:59:16 am »

For me as a hybrid system user what they’ve done is eliminate a viable upgrade path. I’m not buying an xf any time soon, the cost of switching is astronomical. I’m not buying a h back because my entire workflow is based on c1. When I bought in the 4x was a better system than the df+. I understand if have limited features but would still want the ability to mount on my h body. And even with the 100mp, the files are plenty sharp for me.

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Re: What medium format, Phaseone
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2019, 02:02:21 pm »

OK. Your post is short enough to take all in one bite.
....
I changed my mind. Though your post was short, the disparagement was broad. So, I think I'll take a break. Mopping up messes was never my favorite thing to do.

Not sure if you caught that I'm a Hass owner, who isn't trying to beat down a brand (they're doing a plenty good job of doing it themselves).

No disparagement - everything stated is true & well hashed here on LuLa.  Hass made business decisions, Phase made business decisions. Phase doesn't want to be on the hook for Hass's decisions & lack of action.  As I stated, some HC glass is up for the 150mp sensor, but a lot isn't. There are plenty of H mount IQ1/2/3 backs available to those who bought into the system, unfortunately there is an end to it.  Yes, the H6D is better than the H5D & H4D platforms, but that wasn't part of this discussion.

I put my name on these statements, please do the same with yours.
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