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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 49160 times)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #460 on: August 07, 2019, 05:47:38 pm »

It was done by Private Industry not government.

I suggest you investigate the history of government/military involvement in the fossil fuel industry more closely.
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #461 on: August 07, 2019, 05:51:05 pm »

As an aside, most of the latest standards for pollution in all the world's cars was imposed by the USA (mainly California).  Just to point out the even without Paris, America is at the leading edge of reducing pollution and making energy have less impact on the environment.
So, government intervention is good.

Quote
Frankly, if government got out the way and stopped picking favorites that they subsidize, private industry would help move us to the most efficient and practical saving the most money yet providing the best technology to reduce emission of CO2 and pollutants.
No, wait, government intervention is bad.

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #462 on: August 07, 2019, 06:28:18 pm »

I suggest you investigate the history of government/military involvement in the fossil fuel industry more closely.
State your point about them if you have a point to make.

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #463 on: August 07, 2019, 06:38:42 pm »

So, government intervention is good.
No, wait, government intervention is bad.
Yes some government rules help.  The can maintain level playing fields. They provide a court system that allow trust between businesses and customers and a place to resolve differences. They can provide standards like the aforementioned car pollution or building codes for construction.  But these things can become oppressive.  There has to be a balance. 

For the most part, free markets and private enterprise provide the best results with better products and lower costs.  The more government regulation, the higher the costs and the less innovation there is. For example, by giving credits for solar and wind, the government diminishes the incentive to try other things that might work better.  Business go where the money is.  If they are depending on credits and rebates to sell solar, then they'll sell solar rather then trying something more innovative. 

Like most things in life you need balance.  Often the government steps in too strongly when they should back off.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #464 on: August 07, 2019, 08:33:15 pm »

State your point about them if you have a point to make.

Really? Do I have to?

I refer to the support of (various) western governments on such subtleties as "regime change" or all-out war in places like, oh, I dunno, Iran?  Saudi Arabia?  Venezuela?  Iraq?
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #465 on: August 07, 2019, 08:35:00 pm »

For the most part, free markets and private enterprise provide the best results with better products and lower costs.

Please identify these free markets.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:00:33 pm by Peter McLennan »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #466 on: August 07, 2019, 08:35:39 pm »

Nobody denies that climate changes. It's been changing for billions of years.

But NEVER so fast.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #467 on: August 07, 2019, 08:38:30 pm »

I just want to solve climate change as fast as possible, but also don't want to see the environment destroyed from clear cutting for wind/solar farms.  This is why I am so passionate about it.

I can't imagine why you insist on pointing out the "clear cutting" for wind and solar.  Any of the wind or solar installations I've personally seen have required precisely zero clear cutting.

This image shows the estimated land area required in North Africa to generate enough power for the world, the EU or for Germany.  Zero clear cutting. 

It will require some transmission hardware, but we know how to do that already.  HVDC, remember?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec



« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 08:58:59 pm by Peter McLennan »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #468 on: August 07, 2019, 09:29:45 pm »

I can't imagine why you insist on pointing out the "clear cutting" for wind and solar.  Any of the wind or solar installations I've personally seen have required precisely zero clear cutting.

This image shows the estimated land area required in North Africa to generate enough power for the world, the EU or for Germany.  Zero clear cutting. 

It will require some transmission hardware, but we know how to do that already.  HVDC, remember?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec





Just as an aside, all environmentalist agree that wind and solar farms need to be clear cut and will destroy the environment, regardless of where they are built.  This includes desserts.  Anyway, ...

Aside from the extremely large geopolitical issues that would certainly arise and the history of instability of the region, at first glance it looks cautiously optimistic.  I also like the fact that the Sahara is not populated with that many animals, meaning less habitats will be destroyed along with plant life. 

However, I am very skeptical of those land masses you highlight being so small.  I have yet to see any calculations that show land masses even remotely as small as those by any physicists looking into wind/solar.  On top of this, you will still only get production 33% of the time, just like with other projects in other desserts, albeit maybe more concentrated.  Although the Wiki post does not directly say this, they do mention, indirectly, the sunlight is present only about 9 to 10 hours of the day, and that is about a 1/3 of the time. 

Additionally your Wki post does point out some pretty serious obstacles that would need to be overcome at the bottom. 

First, the cost of cabling over such large distances and maintaining them would be extremely expensive and could effectively offset any of the cost saving with building there. 

Second, Europe would just go from being political dependent on the Middle East to being so on North Africa.  This would not just be with the country that is producing the energy but as with every single country that the cables run through as well.  Anyone of them could hold Europe hostage by threatening to shut off the power.  This, obviously, would create a serious military issue as well.  On top of this, you would absolutely be dependent on these countries and could not easily change alliances since the cables would run through them and not be easily rerouted.  This is different then today since you can more easily change from which country you buy fuels from. 

Third, there is simply not enough water available in the region for construction, maintenance and cleaning, and cooling of the panels and turbines.  All of this water will need to be imported, adding the cost of the project.  Although there is some hope in developing cells where dirt and sand can not attached themselves to the surfaces, these are still in their infancy.  Additionally, dry cooling is an option but more expensive. 

Last, who will actually own the project?  Will Africans be okay with Europeans building this in their country and maintaining ownership and operation?  Or will Europeans be okay with footing the bill for a huge project like this only to let Africans to assume ownership and operations?  This would be quite the tricky treaty to work out.  Also, again due to the instability and frequent regime changes in that area, you would need to be ready to make unpredicted alterations to this treaty after it is in effect. 

I would also add, the instability of the region and the fact that, pretty much without warning, either the plant itself could be shut down or cables cut due to coups or wars would make this project very risky. 

This is not to say it cant work, just that there are a lot of issues to consider, many of which have nothing to due to energy production nor are inherently stable/reliable. 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:46:31 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #469 on: August 07, 2019, 10:30:06 pm »

Really? Do I have to?

I refer to the support of (various) western governments on such subtleties as "regime change" or all-out war in places like, oh, I dunno, Iran?  Saudi Arabia?  Venezuela?  Iraq?
Based on the disasters America has faced by getting involved in these countries because of oil, it's a great argument for no government involvement in renewables.   Exactly my point as well as yours.

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #470 on: August 07, 2019, 10:36:06 pm »

 
Please identify these free markets.
"The free market is an economic system based on supply and demand with little or no government control. It is a summary description of all voluntary exchanges that take place in a given economic environment. Free markets are characterized by a spontaneous and decentralized order of arrangements through which individuals make economic decisions. Based on its political and legal rules, a country’s free market economy may range between very large or entirely black market."
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp

Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #471 on: August 07, 2019, 10:43:21 pm »

You have described what constitutes a free market, but haven't identified any that are actually free.

Feel free to do so.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #472 on: August 07, 2019, 10:44:20 pm »

You have described what constitutes a free market, but haven't identified any that are actually free.

Feel free to do so.

America. The EU. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #473 on: August 07, 2019, 10:47:52 pm »

Just as an aside, all environmentalist agree that wind and solar farms need to be clear cut and will destroy the environment, regardless of where they are built.  This includes desserts.  Anyway, ....

"All environmentalists agree". Preposterous.  How do you clear cut a "dessert"? 

The wind farms in Oregon that I have seen have small roads that access the base of the wind towers, but there's no clear cutting.  There's nothing to cut.  They're in grasslands. 
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #474 on: August 07, 2019, 10:48:50 pm »

America. The EU.

You must be kidding.  Do you really think America is a free market?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #475 on: August 07, 2019, 10:50:09 pm »

You must be kidding.  Do you really think America is a free market?
Yes.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #476 on: August 07, 2019, 10:54:53 pm »

Yes.

Wow.  You really have been drinking the Kool Aid.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #477 on: August 07, 2019, 10:57:55 pm »

Wow.  You really have been drinking the Kool Aid.
Another personal attack?  You could do better than that, I'm sure. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #478 on: August 08, 2019, 06:21:35 am »

"All environmentalists agree". Preposterous.  How do you clear cut a "dessert"? 

The wind farms in Oregon that I have seen have small roads that access the base of the wind towers, but there's no clear cutting.  There's nothing to cut.  They're in grasslands.

Believe it or not, animals do live in deserts.  When you build a solar farm in a desert, the land needs to be cleared of animals and their habitats in order to construct the thing.  Clear cut is a general term used by environmentalists for destroying large areas of natural habitat and is used even is there are no trees that get removed. 

If Renewables Are So Great for the Environment, Why Do They Keep Destroying It?

"A single California solar farm, Ivanpah, required the killing of hundreds of desert tortoises, the state’s threatened reptile, and annually kills six thousand birds by lighting them on fire."  That's about 16 to 17 birds a day.

"... the birds that the wind turbines and solar farms kill are large, rare, and threatened, like the Golden Eagle, Red-Tailed Hawk, and American Kestrel ... any birder will remind you that large birds of prey like raptors are slower to reproduce, and so the death of breeding adults has a far more devastating impact ..."

"But aren’t such environmental impacts common to all forms of energy production?  They aren’t. Because water, sunlight, and wind are so energy dilute, renewable technologies require orders of magnitude more land and materials to produce the same amount of energy as nonrenewables." 

"Ivanpah solar farm, for instance, requires an astonishing 450 times more land, per unit of energy produced, than Diablo Canyon, California’s last nuclear plant, which has had no impact on its neighboring fish population, and whose tidal pools are some of the most pristine on the West Coast."

"'Ivanpah is a bird sink — and an cautionary tale unfolding on public lands,' a representative from Audubon Society told The Los Angeles Times. 'It continues to operate as though there's an endless supply of birds to burn.'"

"The big environmental organizations appear unmoved. After acknowledging that the expansion of off-shore wind turbines in Germany 'could be grave and even lead to the extinction of individual species,' including the Harbor Porpoise, Friends of the Earth-Germany (BUND) said, cheerily, 'But things could also not be that bad after all. We simply do not know yet.'  Can you think of another instance where Friends of the Earth (FOE) — an organization that has, since 1970, fought to kill hydro-electric dams, nuclear power plants, and fossil fuel plants — has shrugged its shoulders over the extinction of a whale at the hands of a big energy project?"

Ivanpah is a desert by the way.  And it appears oooh so much that those proponents of wind and solar are such great stewards of the environment, doesn't it.   ::)

I think this quote absolutely defines most wind and solar advocates!   

"It is hard to understand green groups’ double standard except as a manifestation of a religious faith in renewables."

Study Sees Ecological Risks as Solar Expands

Solar Farms Encroach on the Environment

Solar Power Expansion Could Pose Ecological Risks
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 07:16:35 am by JoeKitchen »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #479 on: August 08, 2019, 11:01:59 am »

Another personal attack?  You could do better than that, I'm sure.

Not a personal attack at all.  Sorry if you deemed it so. Merely a pragmatic observation.

ie, if you think markets are "free", then you aren't paying enough attention.

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