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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 50322 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #360 on: August 06, 2019, 07:34:47 pm »

Both home installed roof solar and industrial produced solar or wind electricity require traditional fuels for backup.  So the utility has to maintain or build new fossil plants for backup.  All these costs will be passed on to consumers and businesses.

Nothing new about that. And the fossil fuel industry has its own challenges:
U.S. Oil Companies Find Energy Independence Isnít So Profitable
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/30/business/energy-environment/oil-companies-profit.html
Quote
HOUSTON ó For decades, elected leaders and corporate executives have chased a dream of independence from unstable or unfriendly foreign oil producers. Mission accomplished: Oil companies are producing record amounts of crude oil and natural gas in the United States and have become major exporters.

Yet the companies themselves are finding little to love about this seeming bonanza. With a global glut driving down prices, many are losing money and are staying afloat by selling assets and taking on debt.

The value of oil and gas stocks as a proportion of the S&P 500 over the last six years has dropped to about 4.6 percent, from 8.7 percent.

In addition to that, the cost of shale oil production is much higher than suggested, and a lot of money is being lost. Guess who'll be paying for that ...

At least the devaluation of the Chinese currency, in reaction to Trump's Trade war, will reduce the cost of Chinese Solar panels even further...

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #361 on: August 06, 2019, 07:37:34 pm »

Yes, and in addition, there will be a surplus of solar energy produced during the summertime, which is better used for storage than by switching-off the panels. And storage is not only possible in traditional batteries, but it can also be in hydro-pumped or compressed-air or kinetic energy, or as heat in a basin (e.g. salt, or basalt), or for electrolysis to produce hydrogen gas.

Cheers,
Bart

But at what cost?  When I got into energy management and conservation systems work in the 1970's after the first oil crisis, everyone was looking for ways to save energy and reduce utility costs.  One method that was tried was  using electricity furnished at night to air condition office buildings during the day.  Electric rates are lower at night.  So they would produce huge quantities of ice at night to be stored in a ice-storage building.  Then during the day, that ice would be use to provide air conditioning to the office building so no daytime electricity would be required.  It was a great idea.  But it turned out to be impractical and expensive.  First off, where do you store the ice?  NYC and most large cities don;t have spare land just lying around.  Plus the engineering and cost to build and maintain was prohibitive.  So the concept died.  You would have similar problems with traditional batteries, hydrogen storage, etc that you recommended.  Just like "free" solar and wind, the devil is in the details.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #362 on: August 06, 2019, 07:48:34 pm »

Joe, you're really hot to trot on nuclear.  I agree that it might be the best.  France seems to do well with them.  Problem is NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard.   How do we get past this at this point?  The rules and regulations are so oppressive, the political obstacles so intense, that most producers are not interested.  Or are they?

By getting young people to realize how much of a waste of time wind/solar is and how much misinformation has been spread around about nuclear.  When young people like me start to come to their senses that (1) the world is not going to lower their power usage and (2) wind and solar will never provide enough energy without completely destroying the enviroment and (3) nuclear is the safest cleanest power source, we will start to invest in nuclear. 

Until then, we are screwed. 

Plus, this just goes back to your whole point of government picking winners and losers. We need policies that will actually work, not ones that make use feel better and do nothing.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #363 on: August 06, 2019, 07:50:16 pm »

Nothing new about that. And the fossil fuel industry has its own challenges:
U.S. Oil Companies Find Energy Independence Isnít So Profitable
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/30/business/energy-environment/oil-companies-profit.html
In addition to that, the cost of shale oil production is much higher than suggested, and a lot of money is being lost. Guess who'll be paying for that ...

At least the devaluation of the Chinese currency, in reaction to Trump's Trade war, will reduce the cost of Chinese Solar panels even further...

Cheers,
Bart

Only the liberal, pro-renewables NY Times can take an advantage and make it into a disaster.  Obviously, the writer of that article never went to Economics 101.  The more of any product, the lower the cost to the consumer.  If there's a glut, so they make less profit.  Don;t we photographers benefit when competition among the camera manufacturers goes up.  Prices go down and we run out and buy another full frame camera that we didn't need. :) .  That's how it's supposed to work.  Do you worry about Nikon's profits? Or Kodaks' or Exxons' for that matter.  If a product loses its acceptance, the company can go out of business. That's how the world works?  Film, Polaroid, horse buggy manufacturers, etc.  Even oil.  All that happens is the money and industry goes elsewhere.  People still work.  People still eat.  That's how the world modernizes.  Don;t be nervous.


JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #364 on: August 06, 2019, 07:54:18 pm »

You'll loose also a lot of electricity in the transmission lines and transformers.
A short transfer from the solar roof panel to a large battery in the garage and from there to the microwave is much more appealing.

Sure, for residential usage, on sunny days of course in suburbia where single family homes flourish.  But how about in the cities, with apartment and condo buildings, or commercial and manufacturing where there is no where the amount of roof space to even come close to producing what is needed.  Guess what, your approach does not work here, not in the least, and this is the trend the majority of the world is moving towards. 

So, the fact of the matter is that if we want to power our world with wind and solar, we will need massive energy farms.  These massive farms will need to be built on cheap land, which will be many times further away then what your post implies converntual power plants would be.  Which mean even more energy will be lost in your use of wind/solar by transferring the energy on even longer power lines then my use of nuclear, since nuclear takes up considerably less amount of land and can be built economically a lot closer to cities. 

The problem with your post is that you are using a prior generations' wishes of a good housing (suburbia) and applying it to the current generations' wishes, but only the current generation wants to live in cities with considerably less roof sqf per capita. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 08:03:25 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #365 on: August 06, 2019, 07:59:54 pm »

Yes, and in addition, there will be a surplus of solar energy produced during the summertime, which is better used for storage than by switching-off the panels. And storage is not only possible in traditional batteries, but it can also be in hydro-pumped or compressed-air or kinetic energy, or as heat in a basin (e.g. salt, or basalt), or for electrolysis to produce hydrogen gas.

Cheers,
Bart

This has been proven to be futile as well. 

You need a damn like structure to take advantage of hydor-storage.  These are expensive to build and can only be built in limited areas, just like actual damns.  On top fo this, only 1% of all water is fresh water, and you can only use fresh water for hydro power since salt water is too corrosive.  The fact is that fresh water is much more important to society to just let sit in a giant damn unused until we need power.   At least with a normal damn, the water is still flowing, but with this idea, it would just be stagnent and stored, not being used.  At some point in time, a drought or famine would kill this idea.   

I have not even heard of any other feasible kinetic and air pressure storage solutions that look even promising in the lab let alone in reality. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 08:12:30 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #366 on: August 06, 2019, 08:01:21 pm »

By getting young people to realize how much of a waste of time wind/solar is and how much misinformation has been spread around about nuclear.  When young people like me start to come to their senses that (1) the world is not going to lower their power usage and (2) wind and solar will never provide enough energy without completely destroying the enviroment and (3) nuclear is the safest cleanest power source, we will start to invest in nuclear. 

Until then, we are screwed. 

Plus, this just goes back to your whole point of government picking winners and losers. We need policies that will actually work, not ones that make use feel better and do nothing.

Well, if the Democrats win the Presidency and Senate and keep the House in 2020, forget about anything BUT renewables.  It will be Obama on steroids.  The only hope is to convince America that nuclear IS like renewables.  Clean, no CO2, no burning, etc.  I think that's how it has to be sold.

On the other hand, if what happened to Germany happens to America, and the cost for electricity goes to 2 1/2 times what it is due to renewables, the public will demand government to fix the problem.  When people's pocketbooks are involved, people get real interested.  Nothing focuses a person's attention like the hangman's noose.  When Americans have to shut off their air conditioners to save money on utilities, something German don;t use nearly as much, they'll get more than hot under the collar.  Nuclear could then become popular.  Who knows?  It's going to be interesting. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #367 on: August 06, 2019, 08:09:19 pm »

Well, if the Democrats win the Presidency and Senate and keep the House in 2020, forget about anything BUT renewables.  It will be Obama on steroids.  The only hope is to convince America that nuclear IS like renewables.  Clean, no CO2, no burning, etc.  I think that's how it has to be sold.

On the other hand, if what happened to Germany happens to America, and the cost for electricity goes to 2 1/2 times what it is due to renewables, the public will demand government to fix the problem.  When people's pocketbooks are involved, people get real interested.  Nothing focuses a person's attention like the hangman's noose.  When Americans have to shut off their air conditioners to save money on utilities, something German don;t use nearly as much, they'll get more than hot under the collar.  Nuclear could then become popular.  Who knows?  It's going to be interesting.

The unfortunate thing is that I think, but hope not, that we will go down the German rabbit hole and end up increasing our electricity cost while also increasing our CO2 output, just like Germany, until we finally wake up. 

The silver lining is that our leftists always like to look to France, and, with electricity at least, France is doing it right.  They get 95% of their electricity from nuclear and have one of the lowest cost per KWH in Europe.  The caveat though is that nuclear takes a large investment, so large that only big companies can make it. 

So I fear, the left will cut off its nose to spite its face here, meaning their hatred for big companies will keep them from realizing how nuclear is the only option that works.  I hope I am wrong. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 08:14:00 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #368 on: August 06, 2019, 08:15:50 pm »

Sure, for residential usage, on sunny days of course in suburbia where single family homes flourish.  But how about in the cities, with apartment and condo buildings, or commercial and manufacturing where there is no where the amount of roof space to even come close to producing what is needed.  Guess what, your approach does not work here, not in the least, and this is the trend the majority of the world is moving towards. 

So, the fact of the matter is that if we want to power our world with wind and solar, we will need massive energy farms.  These massive farms will need to be built on cheap land, which will be many times further away then what your post implies converntual power plants would be.  Which mean even more energy will be lost in your use of wind/solar by transferring the energy on even longer power lines then my use of nuclear, since nuclear takes up considerably less amount of land and can be built economically a lot closer to cities. 

The problem with your post is that you are using a prior generations' wishes of a good housing (suburbia) and applying it to the current generations' wishes, but only the current generation wants to live in cities with considerably less roof sqf per capita. 
Never mind cheap land. The NYS project I mentioned above is going into the sea off of Long Island.  In order to appease Long Islanders so they don;t have to look at ugly wind generators, they'll be built 20-30 miles off shore so they can't be seen.  Can you imagine the cost of undersea power transmission?  What about the cost for boats, ships, and helicopters and their crews to transport workers and equipment not only for construction, but for maintenance that is required forever?  So beside the $3200 per family, the cost for backup conventional generation, you also have the hugely expensive cost to maintain the system.  What do offshore maintenance people earn compared to a guy who can drive to the site in a van?  Of course the politicians and supporters of energy are blind to these things so enamored they are with renewables.  So these issues will be ignored and the price will be paid by the luckless and ignorant public.  Hello Germany. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #369 on: August 06, 2019, 08:19:00 pm »

Never mind cheap land. The NYS project I mentioned above is going into the sea off of Long Island.  In order to appease Long Islanders so they don;t have to look at ugly wind generators, they'll be built 20-30 miles off shore so they can't be seen.  Can you imagine the cost of undersea power transmission?  What about the cost for boats, ships, and helicopters and their crews to transport workers and equipment not only for construction, but for maintenance that is required forever?  So beside the $3200 per family, the cost for backup conventional generation, you also have the hugely expensive cost to maintain the system.  What do offshore maintenance people earn compared to a guy who can drive to the site in a van?  Of course the politicians and supporters of energy are blind to these things so enamored they are with renewables.  So these issues will be ignored and the price will be paid by the luckless and ignorant public.  Hello Germany.

I know, Alan. 

And these are the real life operating costs all of the wind/solar fans completely ignore. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #370 on: August 06, 2019, 08:30:51 pm »

I know, Alan. 

And these are the real life operating costs all of the wind/solar fans completely ignore. 
When I was in Home Depot, I got hit up by a salesman working for a local solar company.  Apparently they have a deal with the store.  So I investigated putting in solar.  Well, it just so happens, my house is extremely efficient energywise.  I think I mentioned it to you in an earlier post.  So the bottom line it didn;t pay for me to do it.  But I checked into it.  And the more I checked, the more I learned how may problems you are faced with.  For example, roof tiles have to be replaced after 15-20 years.  You have to uninstall the panels and re-install them.  That costs extra money.   
 How is that handled?  You might not own them depending on what arrangement you made with the original installer. Then you have the batteries.  They don;t last forever.  Their storage capacity goes down in time and you have to replace them.  Then there's maintenance.  Who's going to clean the panels?  More costs.  Then if you want to sell your house, you could have problems with the mortgage company.  If you bought the solar as a rental or leaseback or whatever, it could affect your mortgage or the new owner's mortgage holding up the sale until it's straightened out.  Frankly, I would never had thought of these issues.  And I guarantee most people who bought solar didn't either.  Regardless, the solar companies and the government don't talk about them either.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #371 on: August 06, 2019, 09:34:25 pm »

My neighbour installed a solar array recently. It's about 30X50 feet.  It's currently pumping about 8kW directly into the grid all day long, for which he gets credit from the local utility.  He draws down that credit in winter when he heats his house with an electrically powered heat pump. He has effectively zero Canadian Winter heating costs for the foreseeable future.  Ten year payback on his capital investment. After that, it's all gravy.

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At least with a normal damn, the water is still flowing, but with this idea, it would just be stagnent and stored, not being used.  At some point in time, a drought or famine would kill this idea.   

"Stagnent (sic) ?  Really? All water is ancient. It doesn't rot. It just is. "Not being used" is just silly. And what's a "normal damn" (sic)

British Columbia, where I live, has lots of falling water. It rains here. The mountain reservoirs store vast amounts of energy during the spring runoff and release that energy via hydro power all summer. About 50,000 gWh annually.  That is a LOT of energy. The interior of BC is effectively a colossal battery.  We profitably sell this energy to Arizona where they use it to cool their shopping malls because it's 35C down there.

I pay about 10c a kWh for electricity. (converted to USD) That's the going rate here.  Anybody wanna buy our "stagnent" water?

Before Alan chimes in with a few "whattabouts", yes, the reservoirs do flood some pristine valleys.  Fortunately, we have lots of them. The reservoirs can also impede fish reproduction.  We're working on it.  We have hatcheries.  In some cases, they flooded farm land, but many of them are in wilderness.  Sports fishermen and boaters love 'em.

In short, solar and hydro can be very efficient and clean sources of endlessly renewable power.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #372 on: August 06, 2019, 10:18:22 pm »

My neighbour installed a solar array recently. It's about 30X50 feet.  It's currently pumping about 8kW directly into the grid all day long, for which he gets credit from the local utility.  He draws down that credit in winter when he heats his house with an electrically powered heat pump. He has effectively zero Canadian Winter heating costs for the foreseeable future.  Ten year payback on his capital investment. After that, it's all gravy.

"Stagnent (sic) ?  Really? All water is ancient. It doesn't rot. It just is. "Not being used" is just silly. And what's a "normal damn" (sic)

British Columbia, where I live, has lots of falling water. It rains here. The mountain reservoirs store vast amounts of energy during the spring runoff and release that energy via hydro power all summer. About 50,000 gWh annually.  That is a LOT of energy. The interior of BC is effectively a colossal battery.  We profitably sell this energy to Arizona where they use it to cool their shopping malls because it's 35C down there.

I pay about 10c a kWh for electricity. (converted to USD) That's the going rate here.  Anybody wanna buy our "stagnent" water?

Before Alan chimes in with a few "whattabouts", yes, the reservoirs do flood some pristine valleys.  Fortunately, we have lots of them. The reservoirs can also impede fish reproduction.  We're working on it.  We have hatcheries.  In some cases, they flooded farm land, but many of them are in wilderness.  Sports fishermen and boaters love 'em.

In short, solar and hydro can be very efficient and clean sources of endlessly renewable power.

Do you realize the vast amount of fresh water that would need to be stored in order to get a decent amount of eletricty for usage during the off season.  It would be huge. 

Given the fact that fresh water is a valuable commodity, it would be absolutely foolish to let it sit not used for a long period of time.  Sure, water does not rot or go bad, but farm plants and animals do.  Fresh water is needed to keep us alive, to keep farm animals alive, to irrigate crops, etc.  Our whole civilization is based upon the quest to find potable water.  To choose not to use it just because we need it during the off season to generate power when there are plenty of other power sources that we could use is stupid to say the least. 

Plus, the idea that we could store water all over the world and not feel the negative effects of locking up a valuable resource is asinine, especially in places short of fresh water, which there are plenty of. 

Even in your British Columbia, the price of water is not comparable to the actual value.  Most of the developed world has set up systems that drastically undercharge for fresh water, which lead many to not even realize how limited a commodity it is. 

My point, it is a much more limited commodity then people realize and if we started to locking it up to use months down the road, the consequences would quickly present themselves in the form of drought and famine.  As soon as farms start dying from not having enough water, your hydro-storage idea will quickly evaporate.  And before you start talking about how we have current fresh water reservoirs, these are currently used throughout the year to mitigate drier periods.  What you are suggesting would not allow access to the water stored except during period of low electricity production, which would limit access in a fashion not in use with our reservoirs now. 

Additionally, your example of citing where you live really serves no purpose what so ever.  It rains a lot in British Columbia, good for you, that's great, but it really does not matter for the majority of the rest of world.  You citing your massive amount of rain as a reason to use this type of power storage would be like Iceland telling the rest of the world to just use geothermal because it works so well for them.  The only problem is that there are very limited locations in the world where this type of power is feasible. 

Insofar as you selling your power to AZ, that is just a fairy tale.  The fact is that you loose energy when you transport it, and transporting it from BC to AZ would really decrease the amount of energy.  This is not even something worth thinking about. 

Last, your statement that wind and solar are efficient sources of power is currently being completely negated by the real life fact that Germany has seen it energy prices rise 2.5 times since it started down the wind/solar rabbit whole, and I should add that their CO2 emissions have not decreased at all. 

So, once again, wind and solar are nothing but fairy tales, and the sooner we start putting all our efforts into nuclear, the better!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:36:45 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #373 on: August 06, 2019, 10:41:12 pm »

Why renewables canít save the planet | Michael Shellenberger | TEDxDanubia

Great Ted Talk on why wind and solar wont work by Michael Shellenberger, a leftist environmentalist who worked in the wind and solar industry.  There are many more leading environmentalists, physicists, scientists (all on the left) who have all come to the same conclusion. 

In the video, at about 8 minutes in, you see a rather interesting graph showing that nuclear produces more than twice as much energy then wind/solar at half the cost.  If that alone does not convince you wind/solar are wastes of time, you may be an ideologue. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 11:03:00 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #374 on: August 06, 2019, 10:55:46 pm »

Let me state that I get the pleasing idea of living in tandem with nature using only solar and wind.  It is a comforting fairy tale, but at the end of the day, it is still just a fairy tale. 

The people at the beginning of industrial revolution knew how limited wind power was, which is why the adopted coal and oil and gas.  For us to regress backwards because of a false premise that we can live one with nature is misplaced. 

We need to get off of fossil fuels, period.  This does not mean adopting an energy source that forces us to still use fossil fuels as our base load to the point of not even diminishing our CO2 emissions while at the same time increases energy prices, which Germany has shown wind and solar being so good at doing.  But to completely replacing our base load power sources with a clean, reliable and consistent alternative, of which nuclear is the only option. 
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David Sutton

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #375 on: August 06, 2019, 11:07:14 pm »


The silver lining is that our leftists always like to look to France, and, with electricity at least, France is doing it right.  They get 95% of their electricity from nuclear and have one of the lowest cost per KWH in Europe.  The caveat though is that nuclear takes a large investment, so large that only big companies can make it. 


Big companies can do it if their government pays for it. Otherwise, no.
France lost 8% of their available power in the recent heatwave. Six reactors had their output curtailed. Nuclear is useless when the water temperature rises too far, and when flows become sluggish.
They had enough generation capacity to cover demand, but the last figures I saw stated that about a quarter of their reactors would be closed in the next 15 years. That probably deals to their spare capacity.
Unless your country is wealthy and you have rivers immune to climate change, nuclear is not an option.
Renewables are also not an option at a national level. Germany spent over 180 billion euros and failed.
Alas there is no substitute for the foreseeable future for fossil fuels and the many issues arising from that.
It's probably safe to say that within the next 20 years the belief in "progress" will be dead and the way we live will look quite different.

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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #376 on: August 06, 2019, 11:56:09 pm »

Do you realize the vast amount of fresh water that would need to be stored in order to get a decent amount of eletricty for usage during the off season.
Yes. I do. I can see it. I cross it on a ferry. I swim in it.  I drink it.  I boat on it.  I eat fish from it. It's called a "natural resource".

 
Quote
Given the fact that fresh water is a valuable commodity, it would be absolutely foolish to let it sit not used for a long period of time. 
We are not foolish.  We use it quickly. It's stored for a few months.

 
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Fresh water is needed to keep us alive, to keep farm animals alive, to irrigate crops, etc.  Our whole civilization is based upon the quest to find potable water.  To choose not to use it just because we need it during the off season to generate power when there are plenty of other power sources that we could use is stupid to say the least.   
So, you'd rather we just let it run into the ocean?

 
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... not feel the negative effects of locking up a valuable resource is asinine, especially in places short of fresh water, which there are plenty of.   
It's not "locked up".  It's stored briefly, then used.  Managed, in other words.


 
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  What you are suggesting would not allow access to the water stored except during period of low electricity production, which would limit access in a fashion not in use with our reservoirs now.   
I can't make sense of that statement, frankly.  The reservoir fills during spring runoff and is released throughout the year until it re-fills the next spring.  It's available for irrigation and other uses year round.

 
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  The only problem is that there are very limited locations in the world where this type of power is feasible.
Not true. There are many locations that are under-utilizing hydro power.  There are many others that are using it wisely.  Bhutan, for example has but one major export.  Hydro power. To India.  Run-of-the-river power solutions don't even require a reservoir.

 
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Insofar as you selling your power to AZ, that is just a fairy tale.  The fact is that you loose energy when you transport it, and transporting it from BC to AZ would really decrease the amount of energy.  This is not even something worth thinking about.   

So, I'm making up that "fairy tale?  That, in fact we don't sell power into the US?  Tell that to the residents of BC, Manitoba, Quebec and Newfoundland, all of whom earn substantial revenue from that "fairy tale". 

As for "loosing" energy in transport, line losses for high voltage AC power distribution average about 1%  Even less with HVDC.

 
Quote
Last, your statement that wind and solar are efficient sources of power is currently being completely negated by the real life fact that Germany has seen it energy prices rise 2.5 times since it started down the wind/solar rabbit whole, and I should add that their CO2 emissions have not decreased at all. 

So, once again, wind and solar are nothing but fairy tales, and the sooner we start putting all our efforts into nuclear, the better!

How many of your Nucs would be required to generate 50,000 gigawatt hours of power? BC alone does this continuously, silently and with zero emissions of any kind. And that's just from one little area. The eastern Canada hydro projects dwarf ours.

I said nothing about wind.  I referenced solar and hydro, since I'm familiar with those systems.  For wind-based fairy tales, I suggest you instruct the people of Washington State, Oregon, Texas, Oklahoma et al on their stupidity.  They have invested hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars in wind farms. There are hundreds of new wind turbines in Oregon alone, all of which appear to be working quite well, thank you.

And, again to short circuit the inevitable cheap shots: they no longer kill many birds.  The birds learned.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #377 on: August 07, 2019, 04:25:29 am »

Last, your statement that wind and solar are efficient sources of power is currently being completely negated by the real life fact that Germany has seen it energy prices rise 2.5 times since it started down the wind/solar rabbit whole, and I should add that their CO2 emissions have not decreased at all.

Sorry Joe,

But you cannot take the specific situation that Germany is in and proclaim that that is typical for all other situations.

From its history (the split between East and West Germany, and the reunification), Germany has been using vast amounts of coal. It takes time to close those plants and replace them with something cleaner. So the German CO2 emissions are not due to renewable energy, in fact, they are much lower than they would otherwise have been.

And one of the reasons that it takes time to replace them, is that Germany decided to quit Nuclear power generation quicker than originally planned (bringing write-offs forward in time). That meant that other power sources have to fill in the gap in a growing economy, a lot of which is heavy industry, e.g. making steel and building cars.

But all that is changing, and Germany will be ready for the next steps required. In the meantime, they've built quite an expertise and economy on the production of generators (e.g. Siemens is a world player). It's hard to beat the Chinese on producing low cost Photovoltaics, so that has not been as successful in Germany, but at least they can buy cheaper panels as the Chinese gain experience and improve quality. PVs are not without their own concerns, but they beat the alternatives like fossil fuel.

And it's not about a total replacement of all energy requirements with just PVs, or just wind, it's about a clever combination of multiple sources of energy combined with a smart grid.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #378 on: August 07, 2019, 04:34:42 am »

And, again to short circuit the inevitable cheap shots: they no longer kill many birds.  The birds learned.

Indeed, but then humans also learned not to build such wind power generators in the migratory path of birds ...

Nobody ever learns anything useful from sitting on their hands. Innovation takes effort and offers rewards.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 10:09:02 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #379 on: August 07, 2019, 06:27:49 am »


Last, your statement that wind and solar are efficient sources of power is currently being completely negated by the real life fact that Germany has seen it energy prices rise 2.5 times since it started down the wind/solar rabbit whole, and I should add that their CO2 emissions have not decreased at all. 



Can you provide a source to support the claim that Germany has not reduced its CO2 emissions? This claim has been made here many times but I don't recall seeing any evidence for it.
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