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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 111674 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1980 on: August 08, 2020, 03:57:36 pm »

They'll have to fight the grizzly's and black bears for the salmon...it's already very crowded. They are not adapted to hunt fast land mammals...waste more energy than what they gain.

Funny...if it's that simple, why do we care the Pandas diet of bamboo shoots...they can just adapt to other things. Same with the orca whales diet of Salmon...they can maybe forge along the coastline on crabs and starfish.

Unfortunately, life is not that simple.
You quote Darwin but don't believe in Darwin.  The fast polar bears will survive and have baby polar bears.  The slow ones will die off.   Orca whales just don;t eat salmon.  Many eat seals, sharks, other fish.  If the salmon runs out, which is unlikely in all areas, they'll move to areas where salmon still run.  Or they'll learn to eat other prey.  They're even smarter than polar bears. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1981 on: August 08, 2020, 04:03:04 pm »

And according to Alan everyone is in on it so you would have a wide range of vocations to chose from. Where do I sign up?

Seriously, I don't know why there wouldn't be a thriving market for stuff about the polar ears are going to be okay, if it were true?
No one says certain species aren't under threat.  But the polar bear numbered less then 10,000 30 years ago and now they're over 25,000 maybe even 50,000.  True, making polar bear hunting illegal has stopped the decrease.  But if they were dying out because of climate change, their numbers wouldn't be increasing. 

hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1982 on: August 08, 2020, 05:02:47 pm »

You quote Darwin but don't believe in Darwin.  The fast polar bears will survive and have baby polar bears.  The slow ones will die off.   Orca whales just don;t eat salmon.  Many eat seals, sharks, other fish.  If the salmon runs out, which is unlikely in all areas, they'll move to areas where salmon still run.  Or they'll learn to eat other prey.  They're even smarter than polar bears.

That simple...just go elsewhere and eat other food. Is that why the resident what'd population off the BC coast is on the decline? Happens that salmon is also in a decline. Stupid whales...maybe they should hunt polar bears...after all the Bears will be swimming once all that ice is gone up north.

Alan...i really don't think you know what you are talking about here.
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hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1983 on: August 08, 2020, 05:07:12 pm »

No one says certain species aren't under threat.  But the polar bear numbered less then 10,000 30 years ago and now they're over 25,000 maybe even 50,000.  True, making polar bear hunting illegal has stopped the decrease.  But if they were dying out because of climate change, their numbers wouldn't be increasing.

They are moving north to where there is more ice longer...that's a fact. The ice is melting sooner and staying away longer, even up north...that's a fact. Polar bears hunt seals from the ice...that's a fact. Polar bears are having fewer hunting days a year as the ice breaks up sooner...that's a fact. Polar bears stay on land without eating longer waiting for the winter ice...that's a fact. Polar bears are getting thinner each year as they spend more time on land not eating...that's a fact.

Put these facts together and what is the result?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1984 on: August 08, 2020, 05:11:28 pm »

None of that means anything because the population is increasing overall.

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1985 on: August 08, 2020, 05:20:18 pm »

You quote Darwin but don't believe in Darwin.  The fast polar bears will survive and have baby polar bears.  The slow ones will die off.   Orca whales just don;t eat salmon.  Many eat seals, sharks, other fish.  If the salmon runs out, which is unlikely in all areas, they'll move to areas where salmon still run.  Or they'll learn to eat other prey.  They're even smarter than polar bears.

I don't believe you understand Darwin. According to Darwin, some species adapt and survive, but others do not adapt and go extinct. I am not sure why you think polar bears are the ones that are going to adapt and survive, rather than not adapt and go extinct. Seen any woolly mammoths lately?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1986 on: August 08, 2020, 05:30:38 pm »

I don't believe you understand Darwin. According to Darwin, some species adapt and survive, but others do not adapt and go extinct. I am not sure why you think polar bears are the ones that are going to adapt and survive, rather than not adapt and go extinct. Seen any woolly mammoths lately?
Well, woolly mammoths shouldn't have been burning fossil fuels if they wanted to survive. All that heat wiped them out.  :)

I understand that some species go extinct.  But in the case of polar bears, their population has increased since the climate has warmed up in the last thirty years or so.  Even with banning hunting, if the ice melting was affecting their population overall, it would be going down, not up.  Now it could have gone up faster without warming. I don;t know the answer to that.  But to argue they're going extinct when their population is increasing is incorrect.  It could happen I suppose.  But there's no evidence of it yet.  Only suppositions and propaganda.

hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1987 on: August 08, 2020, 05:35:47 pm »

None of that means anything because the population is increasing overall.

Short sited view. Anytime habitat is reduced for a species...nothing good comes from it. With the ice receding due to climate changes, the polar bear habitat is shrinking and more importantly the time a polar bear spends on the ice eating is being reduced. Sure the reduction of hunting has given life to the species...but it now is dealing with a much bigger issue, one that cannot be turned off at the drop of a hat like hunting was.
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hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1988 on: August 08, 2020, 05:45:40 pm »

Well, woolly mammoths shouldn't have been burning fossil fuels if they wanted to survive. All that heat wiped them out.  :)

I understand that some species go extinct.  But in the case of polar bears, their population has increased since the climate has warmed up in the last thirty years or so.  Even with banning hunting, if the ice melting was affecting their population overall, it would be going down, not up.  Now it could have gone up faster without warming. I don;t know the answer to that.  But to argue they're going extinct when their population is increasing is incorrect.  It could happen I suppose.  But there's no evidence of it yet.  Only suppositions and propaganda.

Studies show the Bears are thinner than before and their reproduction rates are starting to decrease. Wipe out of species does not happen overnight, but once the ball gets rolling, it's hard to stop it.
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1989 on: August 08, 2020, 05:47:10 pm »

But in the case of polar bears, their population has increased since the climate has warmed up in the last thirty years or so.  Even with banning hunting, if the ice melting was affecting their population overall, it would be going down, not up.  Now it could have gone up faster without warming. I don;t know the answer to that.  But to argue they're going extinct when their population is increasing is incorrect.  It could happen I suppose.  But there's no evidence of it yet.  Only suppositions and propaganda.

Is the population increasing?

http://www.sej.org/publications/alaska-and-hawaii/magic-number-a-sketchy-fact-about-polar-bears-keeps-goingand-going-an
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1990 on: August 08, 2020, 06:43:53 pm »

You quote Darwin but don't believe in Darwin.  The fast polar bears will survive and have baby polar bears.  The slow ones will die off.   Orca whales just don;t eat salmon.  Many eat seals, sharks, other fish.  If the salmon runs out, which is unlikely in all areas, they'll move to areas where salmon still run.  Or they'll learn to eat other prey.  They're even smarter than polar bears.

Yes, polar bears can adapt. Occasionally, bears in southern Arctic regions eat sled dogs. Other reports from Arctic describe polar bears pulling out people from tents.

Quote
A father in Canada’s far north says he was barely able to keep his tent closed against a polar bear that was trying to break in for food.
“This polar bear nearly killed me and my two boys,” Issiah Oyukuluk said on Facebook after the terrifying encounter.

https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/another-close-encounter-with-polar-bear-nearly-adds-to-deadly-statistics/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/19/polar-bear-attack-sleeping-czech-tourist
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1991 on: August 08, 2020, 07:50:06 pm »

Short sited view. Anytime habitat is reduced for a species...nothing good comes from it. With the ice receding due to climate changes, the polar bear habitat is shrinking and more importantly the time a polar bear spends on the ice eating is being reduced. Sure the reduction of hunting has given life to the species...but it now is dealing with a much bigger issue, one that cannot be turned off at the drop of a hat like hunting was.
It survived numerous warnings hotter than now after every Ice Age ended.  How do you know that the warmer periods before the first Ice age wasn't the normal times for it and the colder Ice Age periods were the rarer and tougher times when it was forced to prey on seals?  Getting warmer may place it back in time when it did better.  Most species do better when it warms up.  There's usually more prey to support it.  The problem is we humans assume that the current period we live in is the normal period because that's what we're use too.  Well, what is the normal period for the earth?

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1992 on: August 08, 2020, 07:53:29 pm »

Is the population increasing?

http://www.sej.org/publications/alaska-and-hawaii/magic-number-a-sketchy-fact-about-polar-bears-keeps-goingand-going-an
You're showing an old study from 2008.  Recent studies have shown the polar bear population multiple times larger than they were from 30 years ago.

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1993 on: August 08, 2020, 07:54:38 pm »

Yes, polar bears can adapt. Occasionally, bears in southern Arctic regions eat sled dogs. Other reports from Arctic describe polar bears pulling out people from tents.

https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/another-close-encounter-with-polar-bear-nearly-adds-to-deadly-statistics/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/19/polar-bear-attack-sleeping-czech-tourist

I understand they're really fond of Canadians.

hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1994 on: August 08, 2020, 08:26:37 pm »

  Well, what is the normal period for the earth?

One which humans don't f*ck it up.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1995 on: August 08, 2020, 08:37:47 pm »

You're showing an old study from 2008.  Recent studies have shown the polar bear population multiple times larger than they were from 30 years ago.

You keep quoting old reports. This one is from 2019:

Quote
Today, though, the sea bears’ future around Churchill looks bleak. In Churchill and the surrounding area (called the Western Hudson Bay), the bears’ population is plunging. The last two decades have been particularly harsh. “The population has declined substantially since the late nineties by 30 percent,” said Evan Richardson, a research scientist for Environment and Climate Change Canada, a government agency. What was once a population of 1,200 bears is now 800, and falling.

https://mashable.com/feature/polar-bears-churchill-population-decline/
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1996 on: August 08, 2020, 08:45:01 pm »

You're showing an old study from 2008.  Recent studies have shown the polar bear population multiple times larger than they were from 30 years ago.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you took one look at the date and dismissed the article without reading it, because if you did read it and that was your takeaway your reading comprehension is such that nothing you have to say about the polar bears has the least bit of credibility.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1997 on: August 08, 2020, 08:46:59 pm »

I understand they're really fond of Canadians.

In the second case, it was a plump Czech photographer.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1998 on: August 08, 2020, 08:53:56 pm »

You keep quoting old reports. This one is from 2019:

https://mashable.com/feature/polar-bears-churchill-population-decline/
Les, the report I read covered the entire range not just Churchill.  The overall population of the bear has increased at least three fold in thirty years.  I think we need to get off the polar bear.  If that's the main reason to spend 2 trillion dollars as Biden suggests on "Green", it would be cheaper to just kill a bunch of seals and helicopter drop them for the bears to eat. 

I know where we can get them.  Cape Cod.  Apparently, in caring so much for seals there, we outlawed killing them for food or fur.  So now, there's a huge influx of white sharks there to feed on the seals.  Apparently, they've mistaken some of our neighbors for the furry pinnipeds, and have been chomping on our relatives as well.  It's screwing up people's vacations.  The store owners, like in Jaws, are complaining that they got to get rid of the sharks which is apparently worse then COvid 19. No one wants to vacation there anymore if they need to swim with a shark cage. So I propose that we kill the seals and ship them north to feed the polar bears.  The sharks will leave, the vacationers will come back to Cape Cod, and the bears will stuff themselves.  Then I can keep my SUV and keep polluting the atmosphere without guilt. 

hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1999 on: August 08, 2020, 09:50:55 pm »

Les, the report I read covered the entire range not just Churchill.  The overall population of the bear has increased at least three fold in thirty years.  I think we need to get off the polar bear.  If that's the main reason to spend 2 trillion dollars as Biden suggests on "Green", it would be cheaper to just kill a bunch of seals and helicopter drop them for the bears to eat. 

I know where we can get them.  Cape Cod.  Apparently, in caring so much for seals there, we outlawed killing them for food or fur.  So now, there's a huge influx of white sharks there to feed on the seals.  Apparently, they've mistaken some of our neighbors for the furry pinnipeds, and have been chomping on our relatives as well.  It's screwing up people's vacations.  The store owners, like in Jaws, are complaining that they got to get rid of the sharks which is apparently worse then COvid 19. No one wants to vacation there anymore if they need to swim with a shark cage. So I propose that we kill the seals and ship them north to feed the polar bears.  The sharks will leave, the vacationers will come back to Cape Cod, and the bears will stuff themselves.  Then I can keep my SUV and keep polluting the atmosphere without guilt.

Humans think they can manage things better than Mother Nature. It's been proven time and again we humans are lousy at dealing with nature.

As a good example, rats came on board ships to the Hawaiian Islands and with no predictors, they ravished. Human's great idea...lets get some mongoose onto the island...they love rats. Well the rats were under control, but the mongoose with no natural predator roams freely devastating things.

If humans just leave things alone, things will work themselves out.
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