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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 112755 times)

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1940 on: August 07, 2020, 04:20:30 pm »

Honest appraisal should be made in the media.  Unfortunately, they're in the tank for distorted news.  Bad news sells better than good news.

As usual, you didn't answer the question, and as usual, it is always the media's fault. Is there no longer any personal responsibility?

It seems to me what you are saying is the public and the politicians are too lazy to look up the other half of the facts on the internet, so they just go by what's on TV. Or perhaps they are just not that interested one way or the other, and would rather spend their time playing golf.

Or maybe the public and the politicians have analyzed the available information and a majority simply don't agree with your conclusion. You could be wrong, you know. I'm not sure why you think you've got an exclusive on what's true and what's not, just because you have read a couple of articles on the internet.

By the way, do you have an undergraduate or graduate degree in one of the sciences? I am trying to decide how much weight I should give your opinion on this matter. It's not like I am asking you whether you prefer Canon or Nikon.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 04:58:39 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1941 on: August 07, 2020, 04:59:36 pm »

As usual, you didn't answer the question, and as usual, it is always the media's fault. Is there no longer any personal responsibility?

It seems to me what you are saying is the public and the politicians are too lazy to look up the other half of the facts on the internet, so they just go by what's on TV. Or perhaps they are just not that interested one way or the other.

Or maybe the public and the politicians have analyzed the available information and a majority simply don't agree with your conclusion. You could be wrong, you know. I'm not sure why you think you've got an exclusive on what's true and what's not, just because you have read a few articles on the internet.

By the way, do you have an undergraduate or graduate degree in one of the sciences? I am trying to decide how much weight I should give your opinion on this matter. It's not like I am asking you whether you prefer Canon or Nikon.


The media presents distorted news.  I'm sorry if you can't see it.

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1942 on: August 07, 2020, 05:06:26 pm »

The media presents distorted news.  I'm sorry if you can't see it.

If you think the media presents distorted news, then don't watch it. It will free up more time for photography.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1943 on: August 07, 2020, 05:13:43 pm »

If you think the media presents distorted news, then don't watch it. It will free up more time for photography.
You can't trust photography anymore either what with cloning and photoshop.  :)  It's not real like your stuff. Maybe we all should stick to shooting.

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1944 on: August 07, 2020, 05:44:49 pm »

You can't trust photography anymore either what with cloning and photoshop.  :)  It's not real like your stuff. Maybe we all should stick to shooting.

It's more fun to do the manipulation in Photoshop than behind the camera.
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1945 on: August 07, 2020, 05:58:45 pm »

It's more fun to do the manipulation in Photoshop than behind the camera.

Photographers have been manipulating images since the days of Fox Talbot and Daguerre. Only the technology has changed.
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hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1946 on: August 07, 2020, 06:44:16 pm »

The media presents distorted news.  I'm sorry if you can't see it.

What media did you get your distorted information from?
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hogloff

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1947 on: August 07, 2020, 06:45:19 pm »

You can't trust photography anymore either what with cloning and photoshop.  :)  It's not real like your stuff. Maybe we all should stick to shooting.

Careful...in the states shooting has a few meanings.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1948 on: August 07, 2020, 09:30:15 pm »

Your claim was "current increases, as a result of the industrial revolution, have been enormously beneficial for plant growth and food production, world-wide.".  That claim is not addressed by the articles you quote.  ( Clue: impact of CO2 increase on some plants in a localised area is not proof of worldwide food production benefit. )

Of course it is addressed. Do you have a reading problem, or a problem with logic?   :o

From the first article I quoted:

"A new study published in the April 6 edition of the journal Nature concludes that as emissions of carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels have increased since the start of the 20th century, plants around the world are utilizing 30 percent more carbon dioxide (CO2), spurring plant growth."

From the last article I quoted:

"An increase in ambient CO2 to 800-1000 ppm can increase yield of C3 plants up to 40 to 100 percent."

Current CO2 levels are around 416 ppm. CO2 levels are fairly evenly distributed in the lower part of the atmosphere. If CO2 levels were to double during the next century, one could predict with reasonable confidence that plant growth, on average, around the world, would increase significantly, excluding unpredictable events, of course, such as massive volcanic eruptions or meteorite strikes, or abrupt changes in the behaviour of the sun, and other unexpected influences that scientists do not currently understand.

Most plants, world-wide, and most food crops are of the C3 type.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1949 on: August 07, 2020, 09:48:32 pm »

Correct. While CO2 can benefit plant (and weed) growth (of biomass),

CO2 definitely does benefit plant growth. It's a scientifically proven fact. 'No CO2' equates to 'no plant growth' which equates to 'no life'.

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the resulting (global warming and extreme weather) climate effects will shift climate zones instead of only adding areas that produce more biomass.

Those of us who are not 'Climate Change Deniers' understand that climate is always changing for whatever reasons. That's the nature of climate. 10,000 to 6,000 years ago, the Sahara Desert was a rich grassland. It didn't become a desert as a result of rising CO2 levels.

Also, rising levels of CO2 have the greatest benefit in water-stressed conditions. In optimal conditions, with adequate water and soil nutrients, where a doubling of CO2 concentrations results in, say, a 40% increase in plant growth, that increase could rise to 65% in drier conditions, compared to the same plants grown in the same dry conditions but without the doubling of CO2.

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Biomass alone also doesn't say much about the usefulness (e.g. as a food crop). In addition to CO2, plants also need the right amount of sunlight and water with nutrients. This is not a simple process of adding only one component, CO2. There are many climate zones that will become unsuited to produce food due to the rising temperatures (and lack of water).

Biomass alone says an awful lot about the usefulness of a food crop. No biomass equates to no food. You die.  :(

However, it must be obvious to everyone (even Greta Thunberg), that plants do not grow on CO2 alone. Of course water, and sunlight, and soil nutrients are also essential.

The nutritional quality of the food we eat varies considerably, according to soil quality and modern farming practices which tend to gradually deplete the health and quality of the soil over time. That's another issue.

I think perhaps we need a new term for 'Climate Change Alarmist'. How about, 'Benefits of CO2 Denier'.  ;D
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1950 on: August 07, 2020, 09:53:43 pm »

So this explains kudzu?
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1951 on: August 08, 2020, 12:03:48 am »

CO2 definitely does benefit plant growth. It's a scientifically proven fact. 'No CO2' equates to 'no plant growth' which equates to 'no life'...

Please spare us that tired old trope.  You and Alan have been huckstering high CO2 levels as a benefit to mankind since forever. It's a lame and valueless argument.

Also, I don't recall anyone recommending we reduce atmospheric CO2 to zero.

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The nutritional quality of the food we eat varies considerably, according to soil quality and modern farming practices which tend to gradually deplete the health and quality of the soil over time. That's another issue.

That's true. Nutritional value varies considerably for many complex reasons.  And it's recently been discovered that crops grown in high CO2 environments (rice, specifically) while higher in biomass, are lower in nutritional value.  More money for the corporations, less value for the consumers.

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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1952 on: August 08, 2020, 01:40:38 am »

Please spare us that tired old trope.  You and Alan have been huckstering high CO2 levels as a benefit to mankind since forever. It's a lame and valueless argument.

Not true. It's a very valid argument. I only began mentioning that increased CO2 levels have an increased benefit for plant growth after I'd come across the research that indicates it is a fact. Before I began to do my own investigations, I tended to believe the biased stories and interviews about AGW, presented by the media, as many people apparently still do today.  :(

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Also, I don't recall anyone recommending we reduce atmospheric CO2 to zero.

Of course not. That would be absolutely silly. But even if it were possible to reduce CO2 levels to the pre-industrial levels of 280 ppm, that would significantly reduce world food production, in the absence of expensive counter measures such as increased water supply and increased application of artificial fertilizers.

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That's true. Nutritional value varies considerably for many complex reasons.  And it's recently been discovered that crops grown in high CO2 environments (rice, specifically) while higher in biomass, are lower in nutritional value.  More money for the corporations, less value for the consumers.

All crops grown in poor soils will tend to have poor nutritional value. Brazil nuts are a recommended source of Selenium, but studies show that the amount of Selenium per mass of nut varies enormously, depending on where the tree was grown. If there's very little Selenium in the soil, there will be very little Selenium in the nut. Other factors such as the pH of the soil will also affect the uptake of Selenium through the tree roots.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1953 on: August 08, 2020, 04:38:11 am »

Of course it is addressed. Do you have a reading problem, or a problem with logic?   :o


Neither, thanks. I  gave you a clue in my last posting. To spell things out wastes a good learning opportunity, but you might like to consider the additional efects of increased CO2, such as changes in temperature, and in distribtion of agricultural land due to such factors as desertification and flooding.

Now, run along and have another go.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1954 on: August 08, 2020, 08:55:08 am »

Neither, thanks. I  gave you a clue in my last posting. To spell things out wastes a good learning opportunity, but you might like to consider the additional efects of increased CO2, such as changes in temperature, and in distribtion of agricultural land due to such factors as desertification and flooding.

I find it rather amazing that you might think I have not considered those additional effects such as changes in temperature, desertification and flooding, etc; because I have already stated that I initially accepted the biased, media-promoted scare about a future catastrophic climate change due to anthropogenic emissions of CO2.

Interviews of famous scientists in the media sparked my interest in the subject, so I began investigations on the internet, and on Google Scholar, to find the answers to puzzling issues that were never raised during media interviews.
As a result of those investigations, it became clear that the media, or at least major sections of the media, were following the advice of the late Professor Stephen Schneider. You can read his relevant advice which I quoted in 'Reply #1792' in this thread.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1955 on: August 08, 2020, 10:26:26 am »

Polar bears are doing fine.

Polar bear survival contradictions: sea ice decline vs. documented harm
https://polarbearscience.com/tag/predictions/

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1956 on: August 08, 2020, 11:53:53 am »

Polar bears are doing fine.

According to a blog by someone who writes: "I am a different kind of polar bear expert than those that study bears in the field but having a different background means I know things they do not and this makes my contribution valuable and valid."...

No, having a different background doesn't. Being peer reviewed and referenced a lot by important contributors in the field of interest would, but alas.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1957 on: August 08, 2020, 11:59:42 am »

Polar bears are doing fine.

So if I posted a picture of an obese American eating an ice cream cone with the title "Virus? Virus? What Virus?" the pandemic would magically disappear?

Here's more of our ongoing segment "If it is on the internet, it is real."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/forensic-expert-says-bigfoot-is-real/
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 12:14:04 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1958 on: August 08, 2020, 12:06:56 pm »

So if I posted a picture of an obese American eating an ice cream cone with the title "Virus? Virus? What Virus?" the pandemic would magically disappear?
My post is no different than those pictures showing a polar bear on an ice flow with the claim that polar bears are starving because the flows are melting.  So I'm showing a fat bear that shows they're eating fine. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1959 on: August 08, 2020, 12:22:36 pm »

Alan, as mentioned several times in this thread, the polar bears in the northern part of Arctic with enough ice are doing fine, whereas the polar bears in the southern Arctic are on decline because of shorter winter season and less sea ice. They bears can fatten up only when there is enough sea ice from where they can hunt the seals.
It's basic biology - mammals with an easy access to food will gain weight, whereas stressed and hungry individuals die from malnourishment.
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