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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 112433 times)

kers

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1920 on: August 03, 2020, 02:57:50 pm »

I'll add that the huge costs to limit CO2 reduces financial resources that could be spent on feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, curing the sick, medical research to cure cancer and other diseases. 
..
Lets us start with the billonaires that say we need to pay more taxes... and than the scrape some budget of the defense department...for even with half the budget the US will remain the last nation to attack.
You can grow your economy on selling oil and gas, meanwhile polluting your soil and the landscape, but if you don't include the pollution costs it is bringing water to the sea.
Netto growth has to include these aspects as well.
I am sure somebody gets rich by polluting the land, but for a whole, for the society, it may have a negative impact on the medium to long term that can or cannot be corrected by the state ( taxpayer).

Then i also think you deny that the world is at a new revolution of using non emission clean energy.
With an attitude like you have The US will miss the opportunity to make profit from that transmission.
Use an electric car and you will conclude it is already the better way to drive; simpler, silent, more clever and on top of that ; zero emission.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:01:09 pm by kers »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1921 on: August 03, 2020, 04:05:20 pm »

Lets us start with the billonaires that say we need to pay more taxes... and than the scrape some budget of the defense department...for even with half the budget the US will remain the last nation to attack.
You can grow your economy on selling oil and gas, meanwhile polluting your soil and the landscape, but if you don't include the pollution costs it is bringing water to the sea.
Netto growth has to include these aspects as well.
I am sure somebody gets rich by polluting the land, but for a whole, for the society, it may have a negative impact on the medium to long term that can or cannot be corrected by the state ( taxpayer).

Then i also think you deny that the world is at a new revolution of using non emission clean energy.
With an attitude like you have The US will miss the opportunity to make profit from that transmission.
Use an electric car and you will conclude it is already the better way to drive; simpler, silent, more clever and on top of that ; zero emission.
I have no problem with companies selling clean energy products such as Tesla.  I just object to the government paying for it with my tax money.  Why should I give rich people $7500 rebate on $100,000 Teslas?  If they have that kind of money to buy a $100K car, they don't need my money.  If you want to contribute, why don't you sent the rich guy a check?

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1922 on: August 03, 2020, 04:30:16 pm »

I have no problem with companies selling clean energy products such as Tesla.  I just object to the government paying for it with my tax money.  Why should I give rich people $7500 rebate on $100,000 Teslas?  If they have that kind of money to buy a $100K car, they don't need my money.  If you want to contribute, why don't you sent the rich guy a check?

I don't think you get a tax credit for buying a Tesla anymore. They sold their 200,000th car a couple of years ago.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1923 on: August 03, 2020, 04:38:53 pm »

I don't think you get a tax credit for buying a Tesla anymore. They sold their 200,000th car a couple of years ago.
I believe you're right.  So let's see.  200,000 x $7500= $1.5 billion dollars.  I didnlt know you had that much money to give.  :)

By the way.  Kandi, a Chinese company just opened in America to sell their electric cars.  Quote: "The K27 starts at $20,499, and is eligible for the $7,500 federal income tax credit. That would put the K27 at just under $13,000, "

So now we're going to subsidize Chinese manufacturers with our taxes.  At least Tesla was American.  We need Trump to stop this because Biden will probably increase the rebate to $10,000.  How dumb can you get?
https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/30/americas-cheapest-electric-vehicles-are-coming-courtesy-of-chinese-automaker-kandi/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALdDMDvkVmLCfzvdowmyEBs5w1A0J7DmbOOP9aPq1w_6rYelmqtG_4wjMB30pUt18Qb5dfT7UpzQgt5-TS9NUQxNu_rY1FF5YrB82eWdGfh1KjfgLfPw9F_tnITgp44yIpDTuf6RLWxkpVgyYXv1XS_kds1umyZtQZN3bT6pJm9Z

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1924 on: August 03, 2020, 04:50:19 pm »

I believe you're right.  So let's see.  200,000 x $7500= $1.5 billion dollars.  I didnlt know you had that much money to give.  :)

By the way.  Kandi, a Chinese company just opened in America to sell their electric cars.  Quote: "The K27 starts at $20,499, and is eligible for the $7,500 federal income tax credit. That would put the K27 at just under $13,000, "

So now we're going to subsidize Chinese manufacturers with our taxes.  At least Tesla was American.  We need Trump to stop this because Biden will probably increase the rebate to $10,000.  How dumb can you get?
https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/30/americas-cheapest-electric-vehicles-are-coming-courtesy-of-chinese-automaker-kandi/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALdDMDvkVmLCfzvdowmyEBs5w1A0J7DmbOOP9aPq1w_6rYelmqtG_4wjMB30pUt18Qb5dfT7UpzQgt5-TS9NUQxNu_rY1FF5YrB82eWdGfh1KjfgLfPw9F_tnITgp44yIpDTuf6RLWxkpVgyYXv1XS_kds1umyZtQZN3bT6pJm9Z

I don't know why the Republicans didn't address that when they had majorities in both the House and Senate.  They could have eliminated the credit in the 2018 tax reform bill. I guess Trump just didn't provide the leadership necessary to get that done. No reason to expect that he would do so now. He has all but given up doing anything at all. He played golf yesterday. I don't know what he is up to today.

Edit: Trump got dressed this afternoon and came down to the White House press room to read some stuff out of a notebook. An electric performance.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 08:41:46 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1925 on: August 03, 2020, 05:42:15 pm »


Their plan is to create the maximum alarm about the dangers of CO2 emissions in order to encourage the transition to renewables such as solar and wind and electric vehicles, which do not emit the real and harmful polluting gases, even in countries with high levels of corruption and/or incompetent management.

That approach might seem justified, and was supported by the late Professor Stephen Schneider. I would also support that approach if the exaggerations were confined to the 'real' threats to human health.

For example, I recall watching a video, many years ago, of Stephen Schneider answering questions from an audience of journalists and skeptics, about the exaggeration of the effects of CO2 emissions in the scientific reporting.
His answer made sense. His analogy was, if you want to discourage people from taking up smoking cigarettes, and/or encourage them to give up smoking, it might not be sufficiently effective to provide the precise scientific data that indicates there is, say, a 20% increase in the risk of getting lung cancer, according to the statistical analysis of those in hospitals with lung cancer.

Many people might think, I'll take the risk if it's only 20%. Exaggerating the risk to, say, 75%, will be more effective, and that benefit to the population at large could perhaps justify the scientific dishonesty.

Your repeated attempts to smear the late Dr. Stephen H. Schneider have become so pathetic that I almost feel sorry for you.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1926 on: August 03, 2020, 06:45:20 pm »

Your repeated attempts to smear the late Dr. Stephen H. Schneider have become so pathetic that I almost feel sorry for you.

I'm not smearing him. I'm praising him for being honest about the deception. I feel sorry that you seem unable to comprehend that.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1927 on: August 03, 2020, 07:11:58 pm »

Sorry, but that was a non-answer.  I didn't ask why you were "deeply concerned about the issue". My question was "who's tipping the scales, and why"?  You avoided answering either component.

I thought the following statement in my post at least provided part of the answer. There is rarely one simple answer to complex issues.

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The history of mankind suggests that one cannot expect whole populations to do the right thing simply because it's sensible and rational. Many people are driven by greed for wealth and power, and others for basic necessities in order to survive. Corruption in politics and business is entrenched, world-wide, although it's worse in some countries than others. The Volkswagen scandal, using "defeat devices" to reduce emissions during testing, is a case in point.

In other words, creating fear and anxiety in the population, about the disastrous effects on climate from CO2 emissions from fossil fuels, will hopefully be more effective in reducing the 'real' pollutants from fossil fuels, by encouraging the transition to renewables. Simply expecting governments, especially governments in developing countries, to ensure best-practice emission controls are used in all coal-fired power plants and vehicles, in order to reduce the health problems from the 'real' pollutants, will not be as effective.

There is also another major issue involved; a likely scarcity of fossil fuels in the future as undeveloped countries become more developed and consume huge amounts of energy because of their large populations, like India and China are already doing.
Energy supplies are fundamental to everyone's prosperity. The more sources of energy, the better.
I have no objection to the development of alternative sources of energy, as long as it's done sensibly without causing disruption to electricity supplies, without increasing energy costs, without causing environmental damage, and most importantly, without deluding people into believing they will be safe from extreme weather events if CO2 levels are reduced.

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The 97% of scientists who agree that CO2 is forcing global heating are demonstrably more interested in science than notoriety or money.

Wow!! How did you manage to interview all those scientists to determine that 97% of them agree that CO2 is forcing global warming?  ;D

Oh! You got it from the media. Right?  ;D

Did you ever investigate the scientific procedure that was used to arrive at that figure?
The following article addresses the process. The attached image from the article summarizes that process. In other words, that 97% figure applies only to those scientists who were willing to express a definite opinion on the role of CO2, in the abstracts of their peer-reviewed papers on climate that were examined. Two thirds of the abstracts expressed no view. It seems that most scientists understand that the role of human emissions of CO2 in warming the climate cannot be accurately quantified and is largely guesswork.
https://judithcurry.com/2015/12/20/what-is-there-a-97-consensus-about/


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TechTalk

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1928 on: August 03, 2020, 07:13:21 pm »

I'm not smearing him. I'm praising him for being honest about the deception. I feel sorry that you seem unable to comprehend that.

I comprehend precisely what you're doing. It's transparently absurd and as I said... pathetic.

Perhaps you could provide a link to that video that you "recall watching... many years ago, of Stephen Schneider" saying anything remotely resembling your statement. Yeah, I didn't think so.
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1929 on: August 03, 2020, 08:23:05 pm »

I thought the following statement in my post at least provided part of the answer. There is rarely one simple answer to complex issues.

"The history of mankind suggests that one cannot expect whole populations to do the right thing simply because it's sensible and rational. Many people are driven by greed for wealth and power, and others for basic necessities in order to survive. Corruption in politics and business is entrenched, world-wide, although it's worse in some countries than others. The Volkswagen scandal, using "defeat devices" to reduce emissions during testing, is a case in point."

So greed for wealth and power, and corruption in politics and business explain why scientists believe in AGW and the media promotes it? Is that your thesis? Sounds pretty vague to me. More like a conspiracy theory.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 08:39:15 am by faberryman »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1930 on: August 07, 2020, 06:10:07 am »

The last fully intact ice shelf in the Canadian Arctic has collapsed, losing more than 40% of its area in just two days at the end of July,

Quote
The Milne Ice Shelf is at the fringe of Ellesmere Island, in the sparsely populated northern Canadian territory of Nunavut. “Above normal air temperatures, offshore winds and open water in front of the ice shelf are all part of the recipe for ice shelf break up,” the Canadian Ice Service said on Twitter when it announced the loss on Sunday.

“Entire cities are that size. These are big pieces of ice,” said Luke Copland, a glaciologist at the University of Ottawa who was part of the research team studying the Milne Ice Shelf.
The shelf’s area shrank by about 80 square kilometers. By comparison, the island of Manhattan in New York covers roughly 60 square kilometers. “This was the largest remaining intact ice shelf, and it’s disintegrated, basically,” Copland said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-canada/canadas-last-fully-intact-arctic-ice-shelf-collapses-idUSKCN2523JH
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1931 on: August 07, 2020, 10:25:59 am »

The last fully intact ice shelf in the Canadian Arctic has collapsed, losing more than 40% of its area in just two days at the end of July,

I wonder how many polar bears were on the ice shelf before it collapsed and floated out to sea. I am concerned that they will not have time to adapt by developing flippers and gills before the ice melts from beneath their feet and they are swallowed up. Maybe Alan could email them that temperature chart to reassure them that everything will be okay.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 11:45:27 am by faberryman »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1932 on: August 07, 2020, 10:34:54 am »

I'll provide an answer, but it's rather long.

It’s  a clear, odourless gas which is essential for all life, and current increases, as a result of the industrial revolution, have been enormously beneficial for plant growth and food production, world-wide.


Proof, please.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1933 on: August 07, 2020, 01:21:14 pm »

Proof, please.

Proof? Farmers have been injecting CO2 into their Greenhouses for many decades, in order to increase crop growth. Didn't you know that?  ;D

Here are some studies explaining the process.

https://www.noaa.gov/news/study-global-plant-growth-surging-alongside-carbon-dioxide.

"Has plant growth increased alongside rising levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?
It turns out the answer is Yes – in a big way. A new study published in the April 6 edition of the journal Nature concludes that as emissions of carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels have increased since the start of the 20th century, plants around the world are utilizing 30 percent more carbon dioxide (CO2), spurring plant growth."


https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2357&context=usdaarsfacpub

"Plant growth is influenced by above-and below-ground environmental conditions and increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide
(CO2) concentrations enhances growth and yield of most agricultural crops."


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2212982015000074

"Here, we analyzed 188 articles on gaseous CO2 fertilization technology in China published from 1982 to 2010. We found that gaseous CO2 fertilizers enhanced the yield of representative fruit vegetable (i.e., cucumber, tomato, chili, zucchini, eggplant, and strawberry) by 33.31% over the past three decades. In addition, crop maturity also advanced (by an average of 6.87 days) and crop resistance to diseases and pests was enhanced."

https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/greenhouse-carbon-dioxide-supplementation.html

"An increase in ambient CO2 to 800-1000 ppm can increase yield of C3 plants up to 40 to 100 percent."
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1934 on: August 07, 2020, 01:35:07 pm »

Your claim was "current increases, as a result of the industrial revolution, have been enormously beneficial for plant growth and food production, world-wide.".  That claim is not addressed by the articles you quote.  ( Clue: impact of CO2 increase on some plants in a localised area is not proof of worldwide food production benefit. )
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1935 on: August 07, 2020, 01:41:17 pm »

Proof? Farmers have been injecting CO2 into their Greenhouses for many decades, in order to increase crop growth. Didn't you know that?  ;D

Here are some studies explaining the process.

https://www.noaa.gov/news/study-global-plant-growth-surging-alongside-carbon-dioxide.

"Has plant growth increased alongside rising levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?
It turns out the answer is Yes – in a big way. A new study published in the April 6 edition of the journal Nature concludes that as emissions of carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels have increased since the start of the 20th century, plants around the world are utilizing 30 percent more carbon dioxide (CO2), spurring plant growth."


https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2357&context=usdaarsfacpub

"Plant growth is influenced by above-and below-ground environmental conditions and increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide
(CO2) concentrations enhances growth and yield of most agricultural crops."


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2212982015000074

"Here, we analyzed 188 articles on gaseous CO2 fertilization technology in China published from 1982 to 2010. We found that gaseous CO2 fertilizers enhanced the yield of representative fruit vegetable (i.e., cucumber, tomato, chili, zucchini, eggplant, and strawberry) by 33.31% over the past three decades. In addition, crop maturity also advanced (by an average of 6.87 days) and crop resistance to diseases and pests was enhanced."

https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/greenhouse-carbon-dioxide-supplementation.html

"An increase in ambient CO2 to 800-1000 ppm can increase yield of C3 plants up to 40 to 100 percent."

So who is paying whom to suppress these articles so that nobody knows the benefits of increasing CO2?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 03:01:38 pm by faberryman »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1936 on: August 07, 2020, 03:32:27 pm »

Your claim was "current increases, as a result of the industrial revolution, have been enormously beneficial for plant growth and food production, world-wide.".  That claim is not addressed by the articles you quote.  ( Clue: impact of CO2 increase on some plants in a localised area is not proof of worldwide food production benefit. )

Correct. While CO2 can benefit plant (and weed) growth (of biomass), the resulting (global warming and extreme weather) climate effects will shift climate zones instead of only adding areas that produce more biomass. Biomass alone also doesn't say much about the usefulness (e.g. as a food crop). In addition to CO2, plants also need the right amount of sunlight and water with nutrients. This is not a simple process of adding only one component, CO2. There are many climate zones that will become unsuited to produce food due to the rising temperatures (and lack of water).
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1937 on: August 07, 2020, 03:46:24 pm »

Additional CO2 not only expands plant growth.  It expands land areas so they can support thousands of species including fauna and animals that were not able to be supported before.    Unfortunately, the public only hears the bad news.  How can decision makers, the public, and politicians make informed decisions when they only get half the facts?

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1938 on: August 07, 2020, 03:55:45 pm »

Additional CO2 not only expands plant growth.  It expands land areas so they can support thousands of species including fauna and animals that were not able to be supported before.    Unfortunately, the public only hears the bad news.  How can decision makers, the public, and politicians make informed decisions when they only get half the facts?

Can’t they look up the other half of the facts on the internet just like you?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1939 on: August 07, 2020, 04:01:11 pm »

Can’t they look up the other half of the facts on the internet just like you?
Honest appraisal should be made in the media.  Unfortunately, they're in the tank for distorted news.  Bad news sells better than good news. 
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