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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 49280 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1600 on: February 14, 2020, 03:01:58 pm »

Surely you are not losing sleep over the possibility the New Green Deal will pass in the House and Senate and be signed the President.

Not today...tomorrow. not so sure. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1601 on: February 14, 2020, 03:03:35 pm »

Hottest January on record as Antarctica  temperature hits 20C for first time
Scientists agree that man-made greenhouse gas emissions are a significant cause of the current planetary warming
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/14/records-broken-hottest-ever-january/

Stopped paying attention right there...
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1602 on: February 14, 2020, 03:37:39 pm »

Save the planet? Sure, just don’t have children. Simple.

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1603 on: February 14, 2020, 03:48:43 pm »

Its MY science?  But yes I can choose what to do with it.  The problem is I'm being told I don't have a choice, and I MUST succumb.  Do you see the problem with that?


Yes, I see the problem with that: you not having a choice and you being indignant about that because you always want a choice. But neither does any one of us have that choice. It is not a matter of a comfortable choice, a Republican choice, a Democrat choice or any other friggin' colour of choice - it is a matter of reality and us all having to stop thinking like schoolboy idiots wanting it to be our team rah, rah! There is no competition to win, no team, there is only the realisation that the problem is bigger than all of us and we have to pull out all the stops we have. If food gets more expensive, so be it: buy a cheaper car next time or a smaller house, watch fewer pay-to-view channels and wear the same wardrobe of clothes two years running; let your good jeans develop the rips naturally.

Bringing in India and China is not an answer to your, our, neglect and head-in-sand attitude. They will do what they can as they can - they also know the problem and, surprise, surprise, also want to live - we, the rich dogs in the West already can do a helluva lot if we want to, and that is the massive difference and why we should be ashamed of our inactivity; Jesus, half of us don't even want to think.

Better our trying to save this place than killing our grandchildren.

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1604 on: February 14, 2020, 06:02:37 pm »

Actually it appears you don’t really want freedom, as witnessed by you wanting to set a ceiling on wealth.  Now you want to do it in regards to personal freedoms that may or may not relate to some scientists guesses about how humans are effecting the climate.

Again people are doing what they want with regards to helping the “climate” of their own free will.  The results are working.  The markets are working.  It’s called freedom.  Doing it at the point of a gun ( metaphorically) is not freedom.  You 2ant to impose your will on others.  I stand for just the opposite.  Do all you want to change, vote with your dollars, but keep your demand on how I can live my life.  (via draconian laws)


Freedom; you confuse it with licence.

Freedom appears to be a word built into some minds as a kind of trigger or switch that passes beyond the actual meaning of freedom and takes on the mantle of personal irresponsibility. If you inhabit a cave, an island all your own, then yeah, independence is able to turn into the freedom to shoot your head right off your body, but please, don't do it in the crowded bus in which we all travel at the same time - with the doors welded shut. Your divine freedom does not stretch to the right to inflict bloody collateral damage on the other passengers.

:-)

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1605 on: February 14, 2020, 06:37:43 pm »

On the contrary, I've said it several times already, but you seem to not grasp it. It's more costly to not act sensibly.
 

Tell that to the coalminers.

You're kidding/trolling, aren't you?

Coal is not efficient when the true cost is incorporated. How much is (human) life worth to you?

No, we do not require more people for that. We require more energy as world population grows and we replace many processes with electric ones (not too many steam engines available anymore, are there?).
 

We are not replacing tractors with people, your example is ludicrous.

More skilled labor is needed not for its own sake, but to replace inefficient technology with higher quality jobs. More and better education is needed because jobs need that. There are fewer people entering the labor market, so they need to be better equipped for the tasks at hand. Export markets are expanding, so you should invest in people/skills and technology you can export and monetize (instead of importing/consuming more that you earn, which requires printing money and burdening future generations). One could go on, but I won't waste more words on it. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

If only people would open their eyes... Not to stare at their bellybutton, but to look forward to the (no too distant) future.
More people used to produce the same amount of electricity lowers productivity and raises costs for each KWH produced.  There's no other economic explanation as much as you try to spin it.  If green energy reduces the amount of people required, than that would be great.  Prices for power would go down.  But your argument is wrong.

Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1606 on: February 14, 2020, 06:38:50 pm »


Freedom; you confuse it with licence.

Freedom appears to be a word built into some minds as a kind of trigger or switch that passes beyond the actual meaning of freedom and takes on the mantle of personal irresponsibility. If you inhabit a cave, an island all your own, then yeah, independence is able to turn into the freedom to shoot your head right off your body, but please, don't do it in the crowded bus in which we all travel at the same time - with the doors welded shut. Your divine freedom does not stretch to the right to inflict bloody collateral damage on the other passengers.

:-)

I'm not confusing it at all Rob.  To call it personal irresponsibility is just about as bad, maybe worse that thinking you and perhaps society has the right to tell someone how much money they can have. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1607 on: February 14, 2020, 07:20:30 pm »


Yes, I see the problem with that: you not having a choice and you being indignant about that because you always want a choice. But neither does any one of us have that choice. It is not a matter of a comfortable choice, a Republican choice, a Democrat choice or any other friggin' colour of choice - it is a matter of reality and us all having to stop thinking like schoolboy idiots wanting it to be our team rah, rah! There is no competition to win, no team, there is only the realisation that the problem is bigger than all of us and we have to pull out all the stops we have. If food gets more expensive, so be it: buy a cheaper car next time or a smaller house, watch fewer pay-to-view channels and wear the same wardrobe of clothes two years running; let your good jeans develop the rips naturally.

Bringing in India and China is not an answer to your, our, neglect and head-in-sand attitude. They will do what they can as they can - they also know the problem and, surprise, surprise, also want to live - we, the rich dogs in the West already can do a helluva lot if we want to, and that is the massive difference and why we should be ashamed of our inactivity; Jesus, half of us don't even want to think.

Better our trying to save this place than killing our grandchildren.

EVERYONE should have a choice, if they live in a free society.  And those who don't ..we should be trying to bring them that choice. And of course I want a choice and yes I am indignant when someone says, sorry we are taking your choice away.

It's clear you have drank the kool-aid.  More power to you. I'll pass, thank you very much.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1608 on: February 14, 2020, 08:46:28 pm »


Freedom; you confuse it with licence.

Freedom appears to be a word built into some minds as a kind of trigger or switch that passes beyond the actual meaning of freedom and takes on the mantle of personal irresponsibility. If you inhabit a cave, an island all your own, then yeah, independence is able to turn into the freedom to shoot your head right off your body, but please, don't do it in the crowded bus in which we all travel at the same time - with the doors welded shut. Your divine freedom does not stretch to the right to inflict bloody collateral damage on the other passengers.

:-)
I think everyone wants to be good stewards of the environment.  We all live here, breathe the same air and drink the same water.  Disagreements about policy doesn;t mean one side or the other is out to blow up the world.

Even if there are negative consequences from burning fossil fuels, the discussing goes beyond that.  All people can want good things although arrive at differing solutions.  If we spend too much money remediating the use of fossil fuels, will the poor be fed, homeless housed, and cancer research spending be reduced?  After all there's only so much money to go around.   Would it be better to remediate the consequences of warmer weather and rising seas rather than trying to reduce fossil fuel use?  That might leave more money for the aforementioned research and other activities that benefit mankind.  Are we spending too much time studying the negative effects of warming?  Or should we spend more time exploring it's benefits?  After all, warmer climate has expanded benefits for man and other creatures since the last ice age ended.  There seems to be some good in it. 

We seem to be stuck with the same old argument about whether it's real or not applying an everything or nothing to solutions.  We all seem to be stuck in a box. We should start thinking outside of it.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1609 on: February 15, 2020, 06:18:22 am »

... Better our trying to save this place than killing our grandchildren.

What grandchildren? According to your side, there should be no children, let alone grandchildren.

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1610 on: February 15, 2020, 06:43:19 am »

What grandchildren? According to your side, there should be no children, let alone grandchildren.

What on Earth are you talking about? I don't have a side; I have two kids and two grandkids.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1611 on: February 15, 2020, 06:57:48 am »

I'm not confusing it at all Rob.  To call it personal irresponsibility is just about as bad, maybe worse that thinking you and perhaps society has the right to tell someone how much money they can have.

So you don't like paying taxes. I got news for you: neither do I. That is also daft: we have to pay them in order to have a civilized society. If we don't, then we have rule by tyrants such as in the Middle Ages and before; I appreciate that you are currently experiencing much the same rule by wannabe Caesar, but be patient - it'll run its course unless you stop being careful and a new dynasty is created whilst you were away fishing.

In the meantime, and whilst there is time, it strikes me as the perfect time to introducer a new cash ceiling as I have described earlier. The resulting, mandatory reinvestment in the same or new business(es) will create opportunity for millions of people on the margins. That's what redistribution of wealth should be about: not stopping anyone from getting rich, but making it obligatory to help humanity when you are already rich enough to satisfy any normal person's idea of being comfortable. Go beyond, and you're into excess: that's unhealthy - always was, if you check out history. We'd be doing these fat cats a favour.

The greater good is what your much-vaunted democracy is supposedly all about, isn't it?

:-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1612 on: February 15, 2020, 07:01:05 am »

What on Earth are you talking about? I don't have a side; I have two kids and two grandkids.

Political side, Rob. And I was talking about future children and grandchildren.

Quote
A growing contingent of young people are refusing to have kids — or are considering having fewer kids — because of climate change. Their voices have been growing louder over the past year. UK women set up a movement called BirthStrike, announcing that they won’t procreate until the world gets its act together on climate, and high-profile US figures like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez amplified the question of whether childbearing is still morally acceptable.

One of the main worries cited by this contingent is that having a child will make climate change worse. Their logic is that anytime you have a kid you’re doing something bad for the planet. You’re adding yet another person who’ll cause more carbon emissions, plus their children, plus their grandchildren ... and so on, in a never-ending cascade of procreative shame.

Driving this logic are studies claiming to show that having a child leads to a gargantuan amount of carbon emissions — way, way more than the emissions generated by other lifestyle choices, like driving a car or eating meat. Media reports have trumpeted the takeaway that if you want to fight climate change, having fewer children is far and away the best thing you can do.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/13/21132013/climate-change-children-kids-anti-natalism

"Having one fewer child is far and away the best thing you can do to save the planet"

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1613 on: February 15, 2020, 07:16:10 am »

EVERYONE should have a choice, if they live in a free society.  And those who don't ..we should be trying to bring them that choice. And of course I want a choice and yes I am indignant when someone says, sorry we are taking your choice away.

It's clear you have drank the kool-aid.  More power to you. I'll pass, thank you very much.


EVERYONE does have a choice; everyone has a zillion choices, but not all are acceptable in a society that works. A society that works has to have limitations of many freedoms for otherwise, your freedom would quickly be chaos. Is that so difficult to understand? It is asinine to claim that choice is life; choices are not all equal anymore than are people: one man's choice can mean another man's death. Do you feel you should have the choice to cause or not cause that on whim, perhaps - it would still be a choice, you know, and a cherished freedom by which you would be killing? Think about it; choices have to be rational and not harmful to society.

Screams for freedom are often little more than slogans designed to rouse the rabble. Alternatively, they are often screams for help, for deliverance from oppression whether religious or political. It all depends upon your point of departure.

Setting a fifty-million cap on personal wealth hardly strikes me as oppressive: most cats I know would be happy to settle for one million in any of their accounts - in the totality of their accounts, myself very much included in that dream!

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1614 on: February 15, 2020, 08:24:21 am »

... most cats I know would be happy to settle for one million in any of their accounts - in the totality of their accounts, myself very much included in that dream!

Mice dreaming.

RSL

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1615 on: February 15, 2020, 08:42:17 am »

Setting a fifty-million cap on personal wealth hardly strikes me as oppressive: most cats I know would be happy to settle for one million in any of their accounts - in the totality of their accounts, myself very much included in that dream!

Rob, you seem to believe that personal wealth is cash that somebody hides in a mattress. Actually, personal wealth amounts to capital. Capital means things like hydraulic presses in a factory. People who make use of capital do it to produce more wealth, for themselves and for others -- otherwise known as "customers." Instead of producing capital, governments who steal personal wealth use it to produce politics rather than more wealth. Check Venezuela to see what happens when governments put a cap on personal wealth.

People who believe there should be a limit on personal wealth desperately need a course in basic economics. Thomas Sowell's book, Basic Economics is a good place to start.
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kers

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1616 on: February 15, 2020, 08:54:44 am »

.... Check Venezuela to see what happens when governments put a cap on personal wealth...
What grandchildren? According to your side, there should be no children, let alone grandchildren.
I thought we would skip the hyperboles...
Makes your comments less trust worthy.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1617 on: February 15, 2020, 09:11:38 am »

I thought we would skip the hyperboles...

These are not hyperboles, as I demonstrated in my next post.

Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1618 on: February 15, 2020, 09:31:40 am »


EVERYONE does have a choice; everyone has a zillion choices, but not all are acceptable in a society that works. A society that works has to have limitations of many freedoms for otherwise, your freedom would quickly be chaos. Is that so difficult to understand? It is asinine to claim that choice is life; choices are not all equal anymore than are people: one man's choice can mean another man's death. Do you feel you should have the choice to cause or not cause that on whim, perhaps - it would still be a choice, you know, and a cherished freedom by which you would be killing? Think about it; choices have to be rational and not harmful to society.

Screams for freedom are often little more than slogans designed to rouse the rabble. Alternatively, they are often screams for help, for deliverance from oppression whether religious or political. It all depends upon your point of departure.

Setting a fifty-million cap on personal wealth hardly strikes me as oppressive: most cats I know would be happy to settle for one million in any of their accounts - in the totality of their accounts, myself very much included in that dream!

Yes, I choose to accept the limits that are placed upon me by the society I live in, just as I could choose to not accept them.  So what?  I could choose to cause another’s death at a whim.  Again everyone could make that choice.  So what? Choices do not have to be rational or not harmful to society.  That too happens daily.  All one needs to do is to be willing to accept the responsibility of ones actions.  Like it or not that is the nature of the human race.   

Screams of freedom generally arise when one group of people decide they want to stifle the freedom of others, like you are doing.  Be it wealth, a way of life or any number of other things where some group of people decide they are going to make new rules to control another.  But I guess that works out fine for you. 

As for wealth.  I celebrate those who make it big, and the last thing I want to do is tell them what they can do with their money.  Someday thinking like that is going to roll down that slippery slope and entangle the smaller folks below.  Taxes are bad enough, we don’t need wealth police.

When you tell me that I need to change my way of life, upend our social norms, and ...how did you put it...”pull out all the stops we have”, to fulfill YOUR choices, pardon me when I tell you my choice is to say heck no. 




.
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kers

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1619 on: February 15, 2020, 09:33:59 am »

These are not hyperboles, as I demonstrated in my next post.
I do not know the scientific value of Founders Pledge/stories/ ... but if they are right the US has more reason to do something about the CO2 emissions ( children?)
https://founderspledge.com/stories/climate-and-lifestyle-report
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