Republicans and democrats don't understand each other

[RSL]

Interesting how you're willing to quote data from organizations that agree with your pre-conceived conclusions but disparage those that don't.

And if you're trying to convince me of something, quoting the Fraser Institute or Forbes won't do it. Neither of those organizations speak for Canadian citizens.

Let's see if I understand what you're saying, Robert. You believe these data are incorrect?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I could not disagree more strongly with your view that parents are the sole arbiter of what is best for a child's welfare...

Which is not my view.

Let me repeat what I said:

... There is a lot of spectrum between parental child abuse and state child protection. I think that in this particular case the pendulum swung way too far toward the state rights.... it is a matter of balance between courts and family. Neither should have automatic and exclusive rights.

[RSL]

Interesting how you're willing to quote data from organizations that agree with your pre-conceived conclusions but disparage those that don't.

And if you're trying to convince me of something, quoting the Fraser Institute or Forbes won't do it. Neither of those organizations speak for Canadian citizens.

Hi, Robert. Here's another one. This one's from Huff Post, certainly not a right-wing publication:

"Canadian health care is the best in the world. At least, that's what we like to tell ourselves.

"But the reality is that Canada ranks last among 11 OECD countries when it comes to wait times. And that's just the beginning of our problems..."

If you'd like to read more, go to https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/24/canadian-health-care-system-problems_n_4661626.html?fbclid=IwAR3k7TlPGebPLvthnGV9pk7G0VkGUXqZVILJoN1vRx7kdosnKPdQV0FjJmk

[LesPalenik]

"Canadian health care is the best in the world. At least, that's what we like to tell ourselves.

"But the reality is that Canada ranks last among 11 OECD countries when it comes to wait times. And that's just the beginning of our problems..."

If you'd like to read more, go to https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/24/canadian-health-care-system-problems_n_4661626.html?fbclid=IwAR3k7TlPGebPLvthnGV9pk7G0VkGUXqZVILJoN1vRx7kdosnKPdQV0FjJmk

40 years ago, Canadian health care used to pretty good.
Currently, there are many more users, fewer (relatively) resources (financial and medical staff), more regulations, more malpractice suits, higher insurances (both for practitioners and patients), so the reality is different than what the government tells you.
 

[Peter McLennan]

This from Forbes Magazine, June 11:

"Canada's single-payer healthcare system forced over 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments last year. That's an all-time record.

"Those long wait times were more than just a nuisance; they cost patients $1.9 billion in lost wages, according to a new report by the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver-based think-tank."

A well-known right wing conservative "think tank", much derided by the many Canadians.  I can't attest to the veracity of their data, but I do understand that wait times for non-essential procedures can be problematic.

My experience is precisely the opposite.  If you need help quickly, it's there.

[RSL]

Hi, Peter. Read my grab, above, from Huff Post, a well-known left-wing liberal think (or whatever it is liberals do) tank.

[faberryman]

If you'd like to read more, go to https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/24/canadian-health-care-system-problems_n_4661626.html?fbclid=IwAR3k7TlPGebPLvthnGV9pk7G0VkGUXqZVILJoN1vRx7kdosnKPdQV0FjJmk

It is hard to take seriously an article in which one of the enumerated complaints is that hospital parking is too expensive and they don't make change inside. Are you sure the article is not satire?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

It is hard to take seriously an article in which one of the enumerated complaints is that hospital parking is expensive...

Well, in my experience, American hospitals offer free valet.

[Alan Klein]

I most certainly did no such thing! I know squat about the Canadian system, and was asking whether Canadians going south for medical aid, privately, implied they did not have access to private medical insurance in Canada.

Sorry Rob.  I think it was Russ who was complaining about the Canadian system. 

[LesPalenik]

A well-known right wing conservative "think tank", much derided by the many Canadians.  I can't attest to the veracity of their data, but I do understand that wait times for non-essential procedures can be problematic.

My experience is precisely the opposite.  If you need help quickly, it's there.

It varies, Peter. Actually, quite often, the waiting times for MRI and other scans in small rural communities  (if they have such equipment) are almost non-existent, while the large hospitals in big cities require long waiting times.

Personally, I had MRI done twice, both four years ago in a large hospital in Newmarket, Ontario. They were free, but the waiting times were 7 months for the first MRI, and 6 weeks for the second. Hopefully, the waiting times have been reduced by now.

Waiting times for hip surgery are 6-8 months in Ontario. After the surgery, you get 2 days to recuperate in the hospital, then you need a good friend to take a care of you or have to pay for reconvalescence stay in a retirement home or similar institution. In Germany, the waiting times are 1-2 months, and they keep you in the hospital for 2-3 weeks.

[Alan Klein]

Yes, you are right, I should have elaborated. In my defense, I was waiting for a borscht to arrive and typing on my iPhone, which was no match for your "longest ever post."

My assertion is based on two things:

1. Your treatment of Alan as a fellow forum member is unnecessarily harsh, abrasive, and condescending. You are not alone in that. Rob and the other Jeremy help a lot too. As I mentioned earlier, it is uncalled for. Alan is one of the most polite and patient contributors, and as such doesn't deserve the insults.

2. Alan didn't question the medical or legal aspects of the case. Therefore, your medical and legal arguments, as much as it comes from your unquestionably laudable expertise in both fields, is irrelevant. Alan raised a higher-level issue of who gets to decide about life and death, and sided with just about half of the world's view on it. You seem to think (correct me if wrong) that medical profession should have the say in life and death decisions, to the point of ultimately deciding it. That the courts ultimately only sided with the experts. I couldn't disagree more with such a view. The role of experts is to give their opinion, not to decide. I, as a parent, should have the final say. If I want my child on life support for the rest of his life, that should be my privilege to decide, not doctors'. If I can afford it, of course. There is a lot of spectrum between parental child abuse and state child protection. I think that in this particular case the pendulum swung way too far toward the state rights. Having said that, if I were in those shoes (father), I would have probably opted to end the life sooner rather the later. However, I was particularly troubled by the court's decision to prevent the parents from moving him to another hospital, willing to provide free care, under the questionable argument of "pain." It is one thing for courts to say, rightly or wrongly, well, that hospital is right, they can pull the plug. But completely different thing to say, no, you can not avoid their decision by moving it to another willing hospital. Such a level of state control over individuals scares the hell out of me.

As I posted earlier:

Thanks for your support.  Regarding state control over individuals, the British action smacks of 1984. 

[Alan Klein]

It varies, Peter. Actually, quite often, the waiting times for MRI and other scans in small rural communities  (if they have such equipment) are almost non-existent, while the large hospitals in big cities require long waiting times.

Personally, I had MRI done twice, both four years ago in a large hospital in Newmarket, Ontario. They were free, but the waiting times were 7 months for the first MRI, and 6 weeks for the second. Hopefully, the waiting times have been reduced by now.

Waiting times for hip surgery are 6-8 months in Ontario. After the surgery, you get 2 days to recuperate in the hospital, then you need a good friend to take a care of you or have to pay for reconvalescence stay in a retirement home or similar institution. In Germany, the waiting times are 1-2 months, and they keep you in the hospital for 2-3 weeks.

Les, Before we believe those multi-month long MRI wait times, I have to ask you if you are making up false data like those news articles RSL quoted earlier? 

[James Clark]

Well, in my experience, American hospitals offer free valet.

You can usually get change from the info booth, too.  🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸!!!

[Alan Goldhammer]

We were up in Montreal visiting friends a couple of weeks ago.  I saw more hospitals in various parts of town than we have in my part of Maryland and Washington DC.  Our friends are very happy with their health care and have not encountered long wait times.  It's important to remember that health care in Canada is delivered by the provincial government and it maybe that the prairie provinces have less services but that is no different than in rural US states where the number of hospitals is small and diminishing.

[Alan Klein]

I realise you don't live here. I have explained to you that the article on which you base your views of the case is wrong and I have given you links which will, if followed, allow you to understand the facts. I have no idea why you decline to do so.

The story of Alfie Evans demonstrates nothing of the kind, which is why your persistent ignorance is so irritating. What it represents is something which the UK, America, every civilised country understands: that, as I have already put it, children are not the playthings of their parents, parents do not always know what is best for their children and sometimes it is necessary for decisions to be made in the child's best interests, even if that is against the parents' wishes. I know little of the US social care system, but if you have no means by which children may be removed by the State from inadequate parents, I would be astonished.

Misusing the series of events which led, after exhaustive legal argument, to the death of a child from an incurable, catastrophic degenerative disease to promulgate your political views, views which are wholly irrelevant to the issues in that case, is reprehensible.

Jeremy

Jeremy:  Since you complained that I had read a misinformed article, I did a search on Google and this article from the BBC popped up.:
In it was said: "His parents said they wanted to fly him to a hospital in Italy but this was blocked by Alder Hey, which said continuing treatment was "not in Alfie's best interests"."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-43754949


This makes my point.  I am opposed to a government sanctioned hospital deciding what should happen to this child.  It's not the hospital's business if the parents want to seek care elsewhere in another hospital.  Certainly the court should have just let the parents decide what they wanted to do.  There are people all the time who have terminally ill children who take their children to places all over the country hoping to find help.  Obviously. most don;pt find that help.  Who are we, the government, courts, or a hospital to decide they shouldn't do that?   That they're "hurting" the child if they do.  That's rubbish.  The child is not a ward of the state.  The parents have the child's best interests at heart.  Sure, there are times when the state must protect children when their parents are acting with harm in mind.  But we don;t need hospitals and government interfering in cases like this.  Families should make the decision when the plug is pulled.  Some of this is going on in America too.  We are too quick to take traditional parental responsibility out of the hands of the parents.  We should be very careful about these things in my opinion. 

[LesPalenik]

Les, Before we believe those multi-month long MRI wait times, I have to ask you if you are making up false data like those news articles RSL quoted earlier?

No reason for making it up, Alan. Now even to me, 7 months waiting seems incredible, but that's what it was. Real story, real numbers.
I think, the difference between those two times (7 months and 6 weeks) was due mainly to the fact that by the time of the second scan the MRI room was already functioning on 3 shifts (I think, my appointment was for 10pm or so). Other factors for the first lengthy wait could have been that particular time of year, doctor's weight, and the state/availability of the actual MRI equipment.
The MRI test facility was in a hospital, and most likely it is used and reserved mainly for emergencies and in-patients. Whenever I needed Xray, blood test, or other routine test, I had it done at a private lab, most of the time with no waiting.

[Alan Klein]

No reason for making it up, Alan. Now even to me, 7 months waiting seems incredible, but that's what it was. Real story, real numbers.
I think, the difference between those two times (7 months and 6 weeks) was due mainly to the fact that by the time of the second scan the MRI room was already functioning on 3 shifts (I think, my appointment was for 10pm or so). Other factors for the first lengthy wait could have been that particular time of year, doctor's weight, and the state/availability of the actual MRI equipment.
The MRI test facility was in a hospital, and most likely it is used and reserved mainly for emergencies and in-patients. Whenever I needed Xray, blood test, or other routine test, I had it done at a private lab, most of the time with no waiting.

I think we have a lot more MRI's and other very expensive testing equipment in the USA.  That may account for the quick turnaround time for getting these tests.  Of course, in the US, doctors prescribe these tests more frequently, maybe too much so.  We tend to overtest here in America because doctors are afraid of liability lawsuits.  They pay huge amounts for insurance.  With more tests, more equipment is bought. More radiologists have to be paid to read the scans.  All of this raises the cost of medical care here.   

[LesPalenik]

I think we have a lot more MRI's and other very expensive testing equipment in the USA.  That may account for the quick turnaround time for getting these tests.  Of course, in the US, doctors prescribe these tests more frequently, maybe too much so.  We tend to overtest here in America because doctors are afraid of liability lawsuits.  They pay huge amounts for insurance.  With more tests, more equipment is bought. More radiologists have to be paid to read the scans.  All of this raises the cost of medical care here.   

Overtesting is not so bad. A more serious problem is that in the USA they also over-operate.

An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed annually with the number of unnecessary hospital stays around 8.9 million a year.

Annually, between 20 million and 25 million surgeries are performed not including plastic surgery. One study determined that  almost 29% were not necessary (Health In The 21st Century by Fransisco Contreras MD, page 212). One example concluded that 27% of hysterectomies, number two in common surgeries, did not even need this procedure performed.

https://sweeneylawfirm.com/content/unnecessary-surgeries

[JoeKitchen]

I have used USPS priority mail to send packages for years.  I print out the label on my computer and drop the package off at the post office.  I have tracking information the minute its scanned and everything gets delivered within two days.  Pretty good deal and cheaper than UPS and FedEx unless one has a corporate account.

USPS has never been a concern for me either; it's always customs that worries me.  So far that have not failed me.  Every box of Cuban cigars from overseas has made it through unnoticed.   

[Alan Klein]

Overtesting is not so bad. A more serious problem is that in the USA they also over-operate.

https://sweeneylawfirm.com/content/unnecessary-surgeries

I agree.  People jump into surgeries like they're getting a tooth pulled.  Surgeons recommend them because, well, that's what they do.  Again, some recommendation for surgery is because doctors don't want to get sued for not recommending them and then someone dies.  If the patient tell them they don;t want the surgery anyway, then at least the doctor can say he recommended it.  One of the main things to help our costs would be to change tort laws to stop so many lawsuits and the huge awards granted by juries.  Doctors spend six figures on liability insurance which gets included in his patient fees.  It all adds to medical costs.